Gung-Ho
member
Let me guess....the War Of Northern Aggression was about slavery right?
BTW, I carry a 5 reichsmark Nazi coin in my pocket that my dad took off a German back in '44. He gave it to me right before he died...does that make me a Nazi?
Gun shows and Nazi paraphernalia
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
- Start date
- Status
Let me guess....the War Of Northern Aggression was about slavery right?
BTW, I carry a 5 reichsmark Nazi coin in my pocket that my dad took off a German back in '44. He gave it to me right before he died...does that make me a Nazi?cuchulainn
Member
Both sides here are filtering the facts to fit preconceptions.
To the pro-Confederates: You are ignoring the fact that the Battle Flag has become a racist symbol no matter its beginning. Whether the South was right or wrong is beside the point because the flag's transformation occurred after the war. The South could have been 100% correct, but the flag nonetheless was usurped by racist murderers. You cannot dismiss that the Battle Flag has that horrible power. Fly the flag. Love the flag. But don't lie to yourselves about what it has become (in part) and what you are telling some people by flying it (whether you mean to or not).
To the anti-Confederates: Equating Nazi symbols and Confederate symbols is legitimate only at a primary level. Yes, both stand for regimes that committed horrible wrongs against entire peoples -- but so does Old Glory (just ask the Indians) or the Union Jack (just ask the Irish). Moreover, the Battle Flag (whether you like it or not) is not a racist symbol for tens of millions of people. That cannot be said of Nazi symbols -- Nazi symbols are not conflicted. Spit on the Battle Flag. Hate the flag. But don't lie to yourselves that it means nothing but racism.
I do see both sides here. I love Old Glory despite its links to genocide. I tolerate the Union Jack despite there being a part of my Irish blood that looks upon it like a black man looks upon the Battle Flag or a Jew looks upon the Swastika.
And, yes, I understand the difference between Old Glory/Union Jack versus the Battle Flag. Old Glory and the Union Jack flew long after the the USA and the UK transcended their racist and genocidal pasts. Had the South won, maybe the Battle Flag would have transcended its link to slavery and become acceptible. But the South lost, and its Battle Flag was usurped by racists. Heck, I suppose that in some alternative universe, the Nazi flag might have transcended its link to genocide had the Third Reich truly lasted a thousand years. But the Third Reich lost, and its flag fell onto the trash heap of history.
But what do we do with the flag of South Africa with its links to Apartheid? Should it be allowed to keep flying, like that flag of genocide, Old Glory? Should it be allowed to move beyond its racist past, like Old Glory? Or should it be thrown on the trash heap of history?
To the pro-Confederates: You are ignoring the fact that the Battle Flag has become a racist symbol no matter its beginning. Whether the South was right or wrong is beside the point because the flag's transformation occurred after the war. The South could have been 100% correct, but the flag nonetheless was usurped by racist murderers. You cannot dismiss that the Battle Flag has that horrible power. Fly the flag. Love the flag. But don't lie to yourselves about what it has become (in part) and what you are telling some people by flying it (whether you mean to or not).
To the anti-Confederates: Equating Nazi symbols and Confederate symbols is legitimate only at a primary level. Yes, both stand for regimes that committed horrible wrongs against entire peoples -- but so does Old Glory (just ask the Indians) or the Union Jack (just ask the Irish). Moreover, the Battle Flag (whether you like it or not) is not a racist symbol for tens of millions of people. That cannot be said of Nazi symbols -- Nazi symbols are not conflicted. Spit on the Battle Flag. Hate the flag. But don't lie to yourselves that it means nothing but racism.
I do see both sides here. I love Old Glory despite its links to genocide. I tolerate the Union Jack despite there being a part of my Irish blood that looks upon it like a black man looks upon the Battle Flag or a Jew looks upon the Swastika.
And, yes, I understand the difference between Old Glory/Union Jack versus the Battle Flag. Old Glory and the Union Jack flew long after the the USA and the UK transcended their racist and genocidal pasts. Had the South won, maybe the Battle Flag would have transcended its link to slavery and become acceptible. But the South lost, and its Battle Flag was usurped by racists. Heck, I suppose that in some alternative universe, the Nazi flag might have transcended its link to genocide had the Third Reich truly lasted a thousand years. But the Third Reich lost, and its flag fell onto the trash heap of history.
But what do we do with the flag of South Africa with its links to Apartheid? Should it be allowed to keep flying, like that flag of genocide, Old Glory? Should it be allowed to move beyond its racist past, like Old Glory? Or should it be thrown on the trash heap of history?
The Civil War is over, or so it would appear to me. So why people want to keep it up is absolutely fragglin ridiculous when we have real enemies to worry about. Whether or not it was a legitimate war, a legal or illegal war, fought to free the slaves or not - it really is over. One side lost badly, the other side won well. So what IT IS OVER!
Grow up - give it up - go on with life and look for your real enemies. They are not other law abiding and loyal US Citizens; they are the rotten filth of the earth who come here (or who develop within our own borders) to destroy us or convert us (and even if they convert us they will wind up destroying anything we once had, were or stood for). Some of you guys argue with one another like little sissies, or little brats. My flag is better than your flag. Get a life, right now this country honors one flag, the Stars and Stripes and, not exactly those same stars and stripes of the Confederacy or of the Union. The flag has grown over the years, take a look at it.
The thing is, if you look at our flag you may remember why it is patterned like it is. The 13 stripes representing the original colonies (both in the north and south) and, the 50 stars in the blue field representing the current 50 states as together under a single union (and it was fashioned this way long before the Civil War). We are not, or at least should not be one another's enemies along lines of North/South. We have enough to worry about with those who want to corrupt our morals, drug our children, infiltrate our borders, convert us, and kill us. It likely is coming again you know, another 9/11 or another Oklahoma City. So why not unite and be ready. Weed out the filth. These types hope for our division, they use it against us.
You, of course, can say whatever you want outside of fighting words and such is your constitutional right. So I will say mine too: How dare you defile America with such trivial nonsense when we have real enemies to face. You folks who want to keep up the hostilities of the Civil War, your attitude is, in my opinion, extremely despicable.
Unite under one flag - unite as loyal Americans, do something for your country instead of trying to divide her all over again.
Sincerely,
Glenn B
Grow up - give it up - go on with life and look for your real enemies. They are not other law abiding and loyal US Citizens; they are the rotten filth of the earth who come here (or who develop within our own borders) to destroy us or convert us (and even if they convert us they will wind up destroying anything we once had, were or stood for). Some of you guys argue with one another like little sissies, or little brats. My flag is better than your flag. Get a life, right now this country honors one flag, the Stars and Stripes and, not exactly those same stars and stripes of the Confederacy or of the Union. The flag has grown over the years, take a look at it.
The thing is, if you look at our flag you may remember why it is patterned like it is. The 13 stripes representing the original colonies (both in the north and south) and, the 50 stars in the blue field representing the current 50 states as together under a single union (and it was fashioned this way long before the Civil War). We are not, or at least should not be one another's enemies along lines of North/South. We have enough to worry about with those who want to corrupt our morals, drug our children, infiltrate our borders, convert us, and kill us. It likely is coming again you know, another 9/11 or another Oklahoma City. So why not unite and be ready. Weed out the filth. These types hope for our division, they use it against us.
You, of course, can say whatever you want outside of fighting words and such is your constitutional right. So I will say mine too: How dare you defile America with such trivial nonsense when we have real enemies to face. You folks who want to keep up the hostilities of the Civil War, your attitude is, in my opinion, extremely despicable.
Unite under one flag - unite as loyal Americans, do something for your country instead of trying to divide her all over again.
Sincerely,
Glenn B
El Rojo
Member
So when we won, dissent and freedom lost with it? We can no longer be a society that recognizes freedom and liberty and that people don't have to agree with you? The answer can't be to try and reform the system to your liking, but must be to move because we are a intolerable society who resists any kind of opinions other than our own?
That is a moniker that I don't particularly care for. "If you don't like the United States, then leave." That is not how the United States was founded. It is a representative government, so if I don't like how things are run, I don't have to leave, I can try and change it. And that pretty much sums up the whole process. Many sides (or two if you want) all thinking they are correct and all attempting to change the system to what they think is best. That is what makes America great. That is what distinguished us from the dictatorships and socialist states that have failed. We have a choice. We can choose to move too if we want, which the people in these totalitarian states never had a choice to do. But I don't have to move. I can fight for my cause and I can try and affect change.
So if I am a Nazi, a Republican, a Democrat, or a NAMBLA fan, I don't have to leave! I can try and reform the system and try and make this country reflect my values. It is apparant some of you disagree with our representative, republic that stresses majority rule with minority rights. You think it should be your way or the highway. Who really should be leaving this country? Not me, I will do what I think is right and I will vote, talk, and write my opinions to try and influence others. You can try and shut me up by demonizing me and crying that I am offending you, but thankfully it won't work. What you really should be doing is talking and influencing your friends and making sure that the rest of the country chooses not to agree with me and that you have a larger influence with our representatives than I do. But that would mean we have free choice and liberty and you don't want that.
Those that choose security over freedom deserve neither.
NevadaPistolero
Member
Help me momma...the nazis and the confederates are coming to get me......dont try to start telling other people what they can collect or what they have to hate or love. Mind your damn bussiness and stay out of other peoples bussiness before it comes back and bites you right in the ass. Its called freedom....many men died so we could all have it not just a few cry babies. if that kind of collectable bothers you that much I sure wouldnt go to any more gun shows.....and who gives a ???? what the antis think...one of their standard bearers was a KKK leader...get the point.
Yeah, let's not upset the Nazi sympathizers. People who do that are what's really wrong with this country. Hey, maybe they can start selling bin Laden and Al Zarqawi t-shirts too. Then they can be all offended that people are getting offended, cause they got their First Amendment rights, that the people who are exercising their First Amendment rights, telling them what they think of them are stepping on...
The Axis didn't get what it had coming by the United States being all sensitive. How about rooting for our side for a change?
Hey, maybe they can start selling bin Laden and Al Zarqawi t-shirts too. Then they can be all offended that people are getting offended, cause they got their First Amendment rights, that the people who are exercising their First Amendment rights, telling them what they think of them are stepping on...The Axis didn't get what it had coming by the United States being all sensitive. How about rooting for our side for a change?
one45auto
Member
Nothing evil or dishonorable about the Confederacy. Let's leave the revisionism to liberals and High School textbook writers, shall we?
Feanaro
Member
Authentic and reproduction Nazi items don't bother me in the least. Collecting such items doesn't show any love for Nazis, I certainly don't support Nazi, or Neo-Nazi, philosophy. But they are an interesting, if ultimately evil, group of people that achieved greatness for a time. Not great as in morally good but "remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree, or extent. Of outstanding significance or importance." Nazi symbols are part of the history of our species, dark as it may be. But the worse evil would be to forgot, to bury it away as if it never happened. Modern Nazi literature can be defended to some extent. I have some of Marx works lying around here somewhere. Not because I agree with his ideas but because I don't. "Know Thy Enemy." Nazi knives(again excepting the real thing and replicas) and the like is another story. Such items do not inform or expand knowledge nor do they have any historical value. There are reasons, I'm sure, for non-Nazis to own them but in general they show an affinity for Nazi philosophy rather than history. I would prefer that shows not rent space to such people.
As for the Confederate battle flag... being a Southerner I have mixed feelings. On the one hand the flag is tainted by popular perception and historical reality. But what about Old Glory? Slavery in Northern States was not addressed by the Emancipation Proclamation, only the 13th Amendment stopped that(mostly. Slavery as punishment for a crime was still legal). And slavery was an institution under that flag before the Confederacy was even a twinkle in Jefferson Davis' eye. Plus genocide(pesky In'juns were sitting on our land) and large amounts of racism(The Irish, Scottish, Polish etc). That flag saw better times but so might the Battle Flag had it been given time. Still, it was used by by large numbers of racist groups, as well as other morons. But so was Old Glory.
"Enough wafflin'!" I hear you cry, "pick a side." Oh, very well. Would I drive down the road with a large Swastika or Confederate flag(any incarnation) slapped on my car? No. Besides the popular perception(for better or worse), it implies(thought not affirms) support for the ideas behind those groups, not simply the history. Some of the ideas behind Nazism and the Confederacy are disgusting. Having such icons on historical pieces is another matter.
As for the Confederate battle flag... being a Southerner I have mixed feelings. On the one hand the flag is tainted by popular perception and historical reality. But what about Old Glory? Slavery in Northern States was not addressed by the Emancipation Proclamation, only the 13th Amendment stopped that(mostly. Slavery as punishment for a crime was still legal). And slavery was an institution under that flag before the Confederacy was even a twinkle in Jefferson Davis' eye. Plus genocide(pesky In'juns were sitting on our land) and large amounts of racism(The Irish, Scottish, Polish etc). That flag saw better times but so might the Battle Flag had it been given time. Still, it was used by by large numbers of racist groups, as well as other morons. But so was Old Glory.
"Enough wafflin'!" I hear you cry, "pick a side." Oh, very well. Would I drive down the road with a large Swastika or Confederate flag(any incarnation) slapped on my car? No. Besides the popular perception(for better or worse), it implies(thought not affirms) support for the ideas behind those groups, not simply the history. Some of the ideas behind Nazism and the Confederacy are disgusting. Having such icons on historical pieces is another matter.
If you want to be a fan of any of these feel free, but the constitution does not give you freedom to commit acts of violence against other races as - so I guess you are a no more than a fan of the nazis! Are you also a fan of NAMBLA, or do you really get into sexually abusing male children? There is neither any constitutional right to sexually molest children.
I hope neither is truly the case - I don't believe it really is the case and am quite hopeful you use these only as examples.
I am an American Citizen. I am moral to some fairly high degree. I live my life in those ways as opposed to whinning about how someone from NAMBLA should have his say. I se eyour point, but truly think it was poorly made. I actually protect his right to say it but, not to do it, because there is no such right. He can have his say but not his way, not legally. You are probably an American citizen too. My bet is you vote, you support morality in some form, and you do not believe entire races or religious groups should be annihalted to promote a new world order, nor do you likely believe that young boys are ripe for the sexual picking by older men. So why use such lame stuff in your argument. America is made great by they who do good things, not evil even thoug it is also made great by allowing the evil to speak their minds. Then again, remember this: Of course you can say what you like as an American citizen but, so can the guy who tells you to leave if you do not like it here.
On the other hand if you put certain stuff into practice, I do think you (meaning you generically) should be jailed if you practice the Nazism of Hitler or live the life of a perverted child molester. Then after some time in jail you should leave but, in a box. No you don't have to leave America for having opposing viewpoints but, just as you write about nazis and NAMBLA and how someone should not write telling you to leave America, the other guy too can whine about wanting you to leave. Isn't it wonderful.
Of course all that wonderfulness leads to heated discussion and such things get said:
I find the above quote also to be pretty ludicrous in its own right. I do not agree with anyone who says you should leave for having differing opinions. That is not the America I have known, nor is it the one written up in our constitution, nor is it the one in which our children should be raised. These are not the days of the Salem Witch Hunts, the Nazi Book burnrings, or of the Spanish or Italian Inquisitions.
As I see it, the whole thing is absolutely preposterous (from both opposing viewpoints) when we have real enemies to think about - Americans who would unconstitutionally strip others of their rights, Nazis who practice hate crimes and, NAMBLA members who practice sex crimes included along with terrorists as I see it.
Oh well, I said my piece, not much more to add because if you guys cannot see who is the real enemy, well - I am afraid I have to go to prepare to fight even harder because while you guys are whacking each other I'll be fighting the real enemies of the USA and I don't believe that to be each other here at The High Road.
Sincerely,
GlennB
El Rojo
Member
That is the problem, what is our side? Is it what you say or what I say? Who says what our side is? Sure in World War II we had a side. The United States of America vs. Germany. That was pretty clear cut, just like any of the wars we had. We aren't talking about a war though. We are talking about the inherent freedom and liberty present in this country which means people can say and do what they want as long as they consider other people's rights. That is rights, not feelings.
So whose side is who on when we talk about Nazis in America or freedom loving Southerners? Just because a country that we fought in the past subscribed to some of the ideals held by our own citizens, does that make our own citizens our enemies? If they aid the other side physically then yes, they are our enemies. If they follow our laws and try and influence other people through freedom of speech and expression, that is not being an enemy, that is expressing your opinion. I don't like liberals and I don't like their ideas of appeasement and fourth chances. However, that is their right to think that and it is my job to counter that with my own opinions. That doesn't make them my enemy who I should silence and destroy. I just have to be more influential with my fellow countrymen.
When are you people going to figure this out?
Glenn,
We are on the same side. You summed up pretty much what I said to a T. I meant to use the most dispicable and horrible excuses for human existance and state they have a right to express their opinions. You are 100% correct, I can think it is ok to be NAMBLA, but current law states I cannot be NAMBLA. So my job is not to rape boys, but to try and lower the consentual age to have sex and influence you to accept that that might be a legitimate act that two consenting humans could participate in. Your job is to oppose me 100% of the way. Now, of course I am not a NAMBLA fan and I will stand right next to you and say that is not something God wants me to do and it isn't something I want to see be legalized. Indeed we should stand up for what is right in this country and fight the acts and mindsets that we see as immoral and destructive. However, you don't fight them with brute force or coersion. You fight them with education and reasoning. These concepts are not a foreign enemy that you can destroy. How can you destroy sin or anything else we find abhorrent? You can't. There will always be evil on this earth and we cannot change that. You can only influence those around you to do the right thing and recognize that we were created with free choice.
And that is the key, free choice. Let people make up their own minds. You can't force that upon anyone. There are certain things that we have established as being unacceptable like child sex, murder, rape, and a host of others. Those acts absolutely violate the rights of others. However, if I were to advocate having a society free of jews or blacks, that is my right. To ADVOCATE, not destroy or murder, but to only seek to find a place where I could associate with my own kind, I can do that. And to counter, we can fight that ignorance and seek to have a freedom loving country that recognizes all humans' inherent rights and to reaffirm that with our actions.
Yes Glenn, we are saying the exact same thing. The illegal acts that violate the rights of others are unacceptable. The trying to chagne society to reflect your own values is not. And most certainly opposing those you disagree with is your right and most here would agree, your duty.
El Rojo
Member
Yes Titus, forget the argument. If you can't reason with me, attack my personal character and make jokes. I think my money was well spent at UCLA as it is apparent I can make a coherent argument and make sound reasoning which by looking at your last post, you are unable to compete with. In fact, looking at your previous posts, they mainly are one liners which I refuted in whole. Frustrated? Maybe you should spend some money at an institution of higher learning. Not to soak up their liberal ideas, but to at least learn to be articulate and make an argument based on logic and reasoning rather than the infamous one liner. Of course, I shouldn't assume you're not college educated, but I can assume by your posts if you were, it wasn't at a level like UCLA. If it were, you might quote my entire sentence instead of cutting off the part that doesn't suit you. It’s called academic honesty and integrity. Ok, personal attacks are done, go back to looking at my argument and not my signatures, unless you have nothing to refute me with.
El Rojo
Member
There is a distinct difference in saying the United States should lose a war and subscribing to general principles and ideals. As I have explained, a modern day Nazi doesn't mean they necessarily think Hitler should have won the war. Hell, I don't even know what a modern day Nazi thinks. How many modern day Nazis were even alive then? It doesn't matter and that is the point.
Go back and read my posts. I guess I type too much and you are skipping right past everything I write. I have already addressed exactly what I mean. Go back and re-read as I am a broken record that just ran out of play.
You initially asserted that other peoples speech had no affect on others. When I pointed out that other's speech could have material effect on others you proposed "So move or don't go to the gun show." I take extreme exception to being accused of playing the "victim card" for merely extrapolating the consequences of your line of reasoning. Then you compound it by accusing me of arrogance and attempting to force people to change after I specifically stated "I'm not talking about banning Nazis, and wouldn't be in favor of it." I've not written one word about forcing, banning, or in any other way restricting anyone's access or freedom, and I defy you to produce an instance of such arrogance. And having insulted me, you then deign to condescend as well; how about while I "get some thick skin and deal with it" you work on developing those reading comprehension skills?
If you complain, you're "overly sensitive", "playing the victim", a "bleeding heart", "suppressing/oppressing someone". Don't complain and you're at least tacitly validating whatever it is, because if anyone else does then the excuse is "no one else complained" or you're the only one with an issue". It's a conveniant logical trap that pretty much assures that anything that doesn't upset the majority is a non-issue. At least to that majority...
To the point of the thread I'll restate my first comment, slowly, and avoiding big words:
Q: How does this effect the way the antis think of us as gun owners?
A:If you glory in the symbols of failed regimes that stood for nothing other than murder and racism, why would you then wonder why people think you're a racist? All of the toughening up in the world doesn't change that.
El Rojo
Member
Where did you make a sound argument that other's speech could have material effect? All you said was, "And now, these people have been allowed to dictate my actions, and very possibly cost me money." These people did not dictate your actions, you did. If you seek other people's approval so much that you don't want to suffer the embarasment of being in the same neighborhood as a unkept yard or being seen in a building with Nazis, then it might be worth it to you to avoid those areas. Now I recognize that home values might decrease because of a bad looking neighborhood, but in all honesty is that because of one house or is it because of a host of other linked factors? As far as the gun show goes, you choose what is important to you and what is not. If a Nazi is at a gun show and you walk in and don't want to be associated in any form or way with Nazis, then you are willing to pay more to go elsewhere and seek your merchandise. The Nazi did not cause you to leave, you did. Your values and principles mean more to you than saving a few bucks at the gun show. So you choose to avoid the Nazis, the Nazis did not run you out of the gun show. Again, I respect anyone willing to make that decision. It is the right thing to do. You didn't phrase it that way. You said, "these people have been allowed to dictate my actions, and very possibly cost me money." Again, you dictate your actions and you sacrificed your money for your principles and morals. A very acceptable and worthy sacrifice.
You further made the statement that the Nazis aren't there because they want to hand out flyers, they are there because business is good. I disagreed in part with that and brought up the fact that they very well could be recruiting as a primary means of being at the gun show, not to make money. You didn't address my point. I recognize your point that in some cases that this Nazi stuff must be selling to someone. It must sometimes be profitable. My question is, "What are we going to do about it?" Nazis like guns and they like Nazi merchandise. We really have only three options. One, ban Nazis from beign around guns. Two, gun show promoters don't allow Nazi tables in their shows. Three, we don't give our money to promoters who have Nazi tables at their shows. We can't change Nazis and their like for guns. The antis can associate us all they want. We need to work hard to make sure they are the only ones making that association and make sure the undecided middle understands we don't condone those principles. So stop going to the shows, run your own Nazi free show, or maybe talk to you friends and tell them you go to shows with Nazis around, but you shun them and merely tolerate their presense as they have rights too, as much as we detest their ideals.
You use subjective reasoning here by stating, "that stood for nothing other than murder and racism". Is that all they stood for? As has been pointed out, that is not the only thing. If you say you hate blacks or jews, then that makes you a racist. Having a symbol or flag does not. You associate that flag or symbol with racism, that is your thing. Heck, most of the racists probably associate the flags and symbols with racism. I won't disagree with you there. However, it doesn't have to mean that to everyone. They are just objects devoid of meaning until we give them meaning in the desired context. We have to do that though, the objects don't have that ability until we allow them too.
cuchulainn
Member
I think El Rojo is being unfairly painted here. He's defending the Nazi's right to think and say reprehensible ideas. He doesn't believe those ideas himself. Folks either are misunderstanding him or are engaging in ad hominem. ("Support the Nazi's right to free speech and I'll call you a Nazi yourself to shut you up.")
OTOH, gun shows are private enterprises, not government sponsored affairs, and therefore the sponsors have no duty whatsoever to respect the Nazi's free speech rights. Their rights are irrelevant to whether the sponsors can and should boot them out.
They can (legally) and should (morally) boot them out. Period.
A private enterprise is neither legally nor morally bound to allow reprehensible ideas to appear under its banner.
OTOH, gun shows are private enterprises, not government sponsored affairs, and therefore the sponsors have no duty whatsoever to respect the Nazi's free speech rights. Their rights are irrelevant to whether the sponsors can and should boot them out.
They can (legally) and should (morally) boot them out. Period.
A private enterprise is neither legally nor morally bound to allow reprehensible ideas to appear under its banner.
El Rojo
Member
The only problem with that is where are many gun shows? On fairgrounds and public property. That is how the LA County Board of Supervisors screwed us out of the Great Western Gun Show. So that brings up an interesting question, how far can gun show promoters go on public property as far as weeding out the trash?
The house example made my point quite soundly, and you're dancing arond the point. Value is for the most part determined by other people's perception. I don't get what I want for my house, I get what someone else is willing to pay. To say that "home values might decrease because of a bad looking neighborhood" and blame it on other factors is a dodge: there may well be other factors in the total price, but a house in a well maintained neighborhood will usually sell for more than the identical house, in the same city/school district/whatever except for it's next to a dump. And that difference, controlled for whatever other variables, is what your neighbors cost you in value.
Further, even if they didn't affect your value immediately, they affected the real value that you could get from the house buy changing your perception of it's value. Once you were concerned that the house's value was going down you became more likely to sell, and more likely to except an offer near what you thought the house was now worth. But affecting the parameters that you had to worth with they affected your value.
You're arguing a brand of determinism that holds the decision maker responsible for every decision but fails to account for the fact that decisions aren't made it a vacuum. Society isn't a sterile environment. If people are expected to make the best decision possible at any given moment, then it must be factored in that the variable set that they are presented with at any given second is in some cases beyond their control. If I am making the best decision as to where to buy a gun, and I determine that that would be the gunshow except for the Nazi paraphenalia, then yes, I made that decision. But the variable set that I was presented with to make that decision was based on the decisions of others; past buyers, the sellers and the organzier, decisions which were beyond my control. Eliminate those decisons, the variable set changes, and the optimum decision shifts. By placing sole responsibility on one decisionmaker, you conveniantly ignore the other choices that lead to the situation in the first place.
I didn't address it because I don't have an answer, and never claimed to. I see it as a problem, but other than not partronizing them, and hoping that the guy next to you at the range didn't either there's nothing to do.
Nothing subjective about it. I've not seen one valid point. I'm not gonna rehash the thread, so you tell me, what else, what postive principles, did those regimes stand for?
Saying you hate blacks or Jews means that you said you hate black or Jews. Hating blacks or Jews simply because they are black or Jewish makes you a racist. Racists rarely announce that they are racists. And therein lies the dilema. It is a odd thing for some people to understand the constant, visceral knowledge that a certain portion of the population hates you, and have always hated you, and will always hate you. From the moment you were concieved, until the day you die. Hate you not because of something you did or did not do, but simply for being. To live with that knowledge creates a desire for awareness, to constantly try to determine whether the person with whom you are currently dealing is part of that percentage. There are flagrant signs - like say, being a Nazi - and subtle 'tells', like an otherwise normal guy buying swastika back the playing cards. Is he a racist or a collector? People often communicate despite themselves.
To say that a flag has no meaning is nonsense. A flag is a symbol, and symbols, well, symbolize things. That's like saying that written words have no meaning, they're just collections of shapes and lines. The shapes that make up written words have no inherent, objective meaning; neither does fabric and thread. But humans communicate via mutually shared ideas and concepts, and we take certain collections of shapes and lines to represent a concept, as we take certain collections of fabric and thread to represent concepts. The point of displaying them is to communicate that concept to others, just like scrawling grafitti, or having a signature line below your posts. To say that the viewer is obligated to give the symbol meaning is equivalent to saying that I can interpet your post as a jumble of random letters devoid of meaning or a poem about a cat. You wrote those strings of symbols with specific concepts in mind that you wanted to convey to me. A flag is different only in it's degree of explicitness.
Do you really expect people who, over a hundred years later, still list their location as "Occupated southern states" to listen?
I'm glad I don't wear battle-flag decorated underwear like some people do. I prefer not to gird my loins with the colors of failure.
cracked butt
Member
From what I've seen, its not too hard to tell the collectors from the racists.
If you see a table full of mostly junk, medals allied and nazi, uniforms, pins, knives, bayonets, etc, its a pretty good bet that the seller is interested in historical artifacts. If you see a pair of skinheads wearing replica SS uniforms sitting behind a table draped in Nazi flags along with some literature along with cassette tapes or CDs with Nazi inspired music, along with a few artifacts, you can pretty much deduce that they are whackjobs. Same goes for the guy selling survival/guerilla warfare/anarchist cookbook/turner diaries books at a table. The one type of seller that I haven't figured out yet is the one with a bunch of K98s/Walther P38s/Lugers for sale and has a sign saying "real nazi markings." I'm not sure if he's being a capitalist or a nazi sympathizer.
I have no interest in Nazi memorabilia, but to each their own I guess. I wish promoters would take the time to weed out the fringe elements to give everyone a better experience at the gunshow.
At any rate, my dad used to take me to gunshows when I was a kid and it seemed tamer back then, but I certainly wouldn't take my kid or even my wife to a gunshow today- too many characters who have gone beyond amusing and deep into the realm of unsavory.
If you see a table full of mostly junk, medals allied and nazi, uniforms, pins, knives, bayonets, etc, its a pretty good bet that the seller is interested in historical artifacts. If you see a pair of skinheads wearing replica SS uniforms sitting behind a table draped in Nazi flags along with some literature along with cassette tapes or CDs with Nazi inspired music, along with a few artifacts, you can pretty much deduce that they are whackjobs. Same goes for the guy selling survival/guerilla warfare/anarchist cookbook/turner diaries books at a table. The one type of seller that I haven't figured out yet is the one with a bunch of K98s/Walther P38s/Lugers for sale and has a sign saying "real nazi markings." I'm not sure if he's being a capitalist or a nazi sympathizer.
I have no interest in Nazi memorabilia, but to each their own I guess. I wish promoters would take the time to weed out the fringe elements to give everyone a better experience at the gunshow.
At any rate, my dad used to take me to gunshows when I was a kid and it seemed tamer back then, but I certainly wouldn't take my kid or even my wife to a gunshow today- too many characters who have gone beyond amusing and deep into the realm of unsavory.
cuchulainn
Member
The organizers have a lot more power over the vendors they allow to display items verus the customers they allow to patronize the gun show. The situation is more akin to the Knights of Columbus' fight with gay-pride marchers in the St. Pat's day parade. The courts ruled that the KofC indeed can bar marchers they disagree with even though the parade happens on the ultimate public place, the street.
Matthew748
Member
I go to a lot of gun shows in northern Illinois and Indiana and do not remember ever seeing a glut of flashy, newly made Nazi paraphernalia at them. Once in a while I will see someone selling old relics, but that is about it.
One thing I do see on occasion is a booth or two selling KKK stuff. I have no interest in that and they never seem to do much business.
I have to chuckle a little when I see some of the types of people who sport Nazi clothing and jewelry nowadays. I know a fair amount about Nazi Germany (too many objective history books and too much history channel) and cannot help but feel that they are terribly misinformed. Most likely, many of them would find themselves being persecuted by the old Nazi party rather than hailed as friends and equals.
One thing I do see on occasion is a booth or two selling KKK stuff. I have no interest in that and they never seem to do much business.
I have to chuckle a little when I see some of the types of people who sport Nazi clothing and jewelry nowadays. I know a fair amount about Nazi Germany (too many objective history books and too much history channel) and cannot help but feel that they are terribly misinformed. Most likely, many of them would find themselves being persecuted by the old Nazi party rather than hailed as friends and equals.
- Status
