Gun shows and Nazi paraphernalia

[richyoung]

"is/was this right specifically reserved to the states, or was its legality based on the 10th? "

Primarily the 10th, although many states either made ratification of the Constitution conditional upon a reserved right of secession, or had state constitutions reserving that right.

 

[richyoung]

"Regardless of what they considered themsleves, any officer that had served in the US Army had taken an oath "to bear true faith and allegiance to the United States of America" "

And officers are allowed to RESIGN - as I'm sure the Southern officers did - they had no more obligation to the "United States" after that resignation - not to mention the fact that by waging an illegal war, the U.S. was violating its OWN part of the compact. Remeber the Nuremburg trials? "I was only following orders" is NOT an excuse, and an illegal order, i.e. one in violation of the supreme law of the land, the Constitution, has no validity and should not be followed. (At least, that is what they are teaching officers today.)

 

[richyoung]

"To the point of the thread I'll restate my first comment, slowly, and avoiding big words:
Q: How does this effect the way the antis think of us as gun owners? "


Answer: for those having trouble with the obvious...IT HAS NO EFFECT! Antis DON'T go to gun shows, and they hate us ANYWAY! We kill Bambi, and are prepared to kill the thug about to "redistribute" our assets.

 

[sendtoscott]

Antis DON'T go to gun shows, and they hate us ANYWAY! We kill Bambi, and are prepared to kill the thug about to "redistribute" our assets.

Yes, but anti's use what goes on at gun shows (including tables w/ swastikas) to justify their position to people in the middle.

 

[richyoung]

"OTOH, gun shows are private enterprises, not government sponsored affairs, and therefore the sponsors have no duty whatsoever to respect the Nazi's free speech rights."

In my part of the country, almost all gun shows take place in public facilities - fairgrounds, armories, convention centers, etc. As a public facility, they may well require the gun show operator NOT to discriminate as a condition of using the facility. Don't know for sure, maybe someone in the biz will let us know if the leaes typically have some boilerplate lingo about the issue...

 

[richyoung]

"Yes, but anti's use what goes on at gun shows (including tables w/ swastikas) to justify their position to people in the middle."

..and anybody so simple-minded as to be swayed by such a tactic is no great prize for our cause in the first place. Leave the idiots to the antis - they will do them more harm than they could ever help us.

 

[sendtoscott]

..and anybody so simple-minded as to be swayed by such a tactic is no great prize for our cause in the first place. Leave the idiots to the antis

The attitude that "anyone who sees tables of Nazi stuff at gunshows and then has a low opinion of gun owners is too stupid to care about" will just get us a brand new AWB.

 

[richyoung]

"The attitude that "anyone who sees tables of Nazi stuff at gunshows and then has a low opinion of gun owners is too stupid to care about" will just get us a brand new AWB."

No - the attitude that "we have to worry about what some idiot will think when he hears second- or third-hand about Nazi stuff at gun shows" is an excellent excuse to sit on our haunches and NOT push for national CCW, repeal of the GCAs of 1968 and 1934, re-opening the class III lists, national repemption of civil suits for misused weapons, etc. Those that are FOR us, are for us. Those that are AGAINST us, are against us. You have more poser at your disposal to help our cause than ALL of the media. Buy a brick of .22LR and take a neighbor, or his kid, or BOTH - shooting. Teach them the safety rules. Repeat.

 

[TimRB]

Not that it really adds to the discussion, but I had an interesting experience recently that involved Nazi stuff...

I work for a large multinational high-tech company, and I was in Mexico for a week working at our manufacturing site there. At about 4PM, shift change time, lots of line workers were coming and going. One guy came in, a young, dark-skinned Mexican man with long hair tied into a ponytail, wearing a T-shirt with a Nazi flag on it. It was unmistakable: red rectangle, white spot in center, swastika in white spot. There was no lettering that I could see.

I was absolutely speechless. Wearing something like that here in the US (and especially in PRK) would immediately get you sent home, if not fired outright. Like many here, I strongly believe that people have a right to air their views no matter how distasteful I may find them, so I didn't confront him or even speak to him.

I speculated later that the guy was not really a Nazi, but rather found the swastika interesting in some other way. Some American Indian cultures, for example, use that symbol in their art. I think he really and truely was too clueless to realize what a strong (and mostly negative) symbol he was wearing. I guess I'll never know...

Tim

 

[NevadaPistolero]

Well I can tell you from experience the vast majority of mexican people have no problem with German items or Germans over WW2. Ive spoken to many that share that thought. Theres 2 types of people you will find at a gun show..the collector/seller of historical WW2 memorabilia, the others are wanna be nazis.......these people are so disorganized and dazed and confused i dont think there even worth worrying about one way or the other. I have collected and bought and sold at gun shows for many years, I was into all WW2 items...Nazi,US,Russian ,japanese,Italian...you name it. But I really liked the WW2 German stuff from the early war years...the quality of their medals and cloth items was superior. Like I said earlier...live and let live...its not hurting you so leave it alone.....if those items offend you either dont go to the gun shows or move to Germany where its outlawed. People always want to get involved in other peoples bussiness....thats a liberal leftist view. Dont mess with me and I wont mess with you. theres alot wrong with this country...but selling WW2 items is not one of them....talk about thin skin...christ. And agian like I said earlier ..."who cares what the antis think"....do you think your gonna change their minds by outlawing nazi memorabilia LOL.......Robert Bird.....big shot Democrat.....leader of the Ku Klux Klan........man dont you get it........maybe instead of cowering down and kiss the antis (deleted) why dont you go on the offensive and shut them down...no its easier to quake in your boots and kiss (deleted) LOL.

language violation deleted by moderator.

 

[sendtoscott]

I don't intend to turn having tables of Nazi junk at shows into a test of Manly Will against "the enemy". Besides, the hard core antis probably don't object to Nazis at gun shows, since they're the best friends gun banners have.

 

[cuchulainn]

NevadaPistolero: who cares what the antis think

It's not about what the antis think. It's about what the fence sitters think. The fence sitters are our potential allies, but can be pulled one way or the other.

It's not about thin skin or boot quaking or kissing body parts. It's about recognizing a political reality -- the more that gun shows become associated with Nazi crap, the easier it will be for the antis to paint us as racists and thereby pull the fence sitters into their camp.

And it's not about outlawing Nazi crap. It's about disassociating gun shows from Nazi crap. Do you understand the difference?

And by the way, it is possible to disassociate the gun shows from the Nazi crap and still go on the offensive against the antis. It's not an either-or proposition.

And by the way again, we pro-gun folk have been winning the offensive for about four or five years. It's been a bad half decade for the antis. Their high water mark was in 2000 at the MMM event in D.C. Since then they've suffered mostly defeats and lost support. Or haven't you been paying attention?

 

[GEM]

I think statements like who cares what the antis think just beg the issue.

It is practically bad for the RKBA to be associated with Nazis. However, none of us should be happy or live and let live with Nazis at the gun show.

I would remember you that Nazis are our enemies. They would have conquered the US and killed millions. How many of our fathers and uncles died to fight them? So stick live and let live where the sun doesn't shine. You should as outraged at Nazis as all the blowhards who denounce Jane Fonda.

Nazis are sworn enemies of freedom and the United States. The only reason you say live and let live is because of a lack of understanding or sympathy for their ideology.

If you want to collect Nazi war stuff - good for you. I wouldn't. I wouldn't try to collect a samurai sword that killed Americans on the Bataan death march either.

I might keep a war trophy as an indicator of how we beat that scum. If someone produces new Nazi stuff, how are they less despicable than the Jane Fonda or kiddie porn producers. Let and live - is bullcrap.

I won't patronize a gun show that has a significant presence of this type of material.

 

[sendtoscott]

Besides, didn't the Nazis support 'gun control'? The JPFO emails I get are pretty insistent that's the case.

 

[s&w 24]

I was at a show with my wife and our friend who is an ingraver when we came to a re-enactor table complete with a kid (16 to 19) dressed in an SS dress uniform and get this MAKE UP so he could look more arian !! Our friend went up to him and adressed him in german, he turned so pale you could see it thru his blusher !! Next show he was there but in civilian clothes.

A buddy of mine replied thet you can't play army without the loosers.

 

[NevadaPistolero]

s&w 24 it just goes to show wannbes are just that..wannabes.(this is aimed at no one in particular) I would seriously think there other problems that need addressing in this country. In case you didnt know the first collectors and sellers of nazi memorabilia were the GIs who brought it back from the war. If they had no problem with it why the hell should anybody else. Get real....whining about nazi items at gunshows isnt gonna change a damn thing. Stop trying to infilict your values on me and everyone else....sounds like you would do it at gun point if you could get away with it...to me your more of a danger then a bunch of loser wannbes. Go read damn constitution and bill of rights again.......or maybe for the first time.

 

[cuchulainn]

Stop trying to infilict your values on me and everyone else

The "inflicting of values" is going in both directions. But you don't hear us complaining about you "inflicting" your values on us, now do you?

Go read damn constitution and bill of rights again.

What does the Constitution and Bill of Rights have to do with anything? We're talking about private enterprises choosing who they allow under their banner. The B-of-R doesn't regulate that.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I find it odd that a group of people that generally treat the Bill of Rights on the same scale as the 10 Commandments are more than happy to infringe of other people's rights when it deals with something they personally dislike. People that want the Constitution to be followed to the letter are suggesting everything from pressuring gun show organizers to prohibit sales of Confederate and Nazi military memorabilia to an outright ban on them. Not allowing some American citizens to market their legal items does count as a violation in my opinion. Do we not complain when major TV networks won't allow the NRA to run an ad on their station? Same thing. Would we not jump up and down if a gun show organizer refused to allow the "Pink Pistols" to set up a table at a gun show? You bet we would.

If you don't want to possess this memorabilia, then don't. If it creates more mental anguish than you can handle just seeing this stuff, don't go where they sell it. It is your hangup, so feel free to place limits on yourself to avoid being exposed to it. Also feel free not to attempt to place limits on others because of your hangup.

 

[NevadaPistolero]

LOL...ok Freedom from persecution by cry babies...it has everything to do with the constitution. My values are, mind your damn bussiness instead whining about (deleted) little things. Nazi items are legal to sell, to own, to buy.....get over it






edited to delete forum rules violation

 

[cuchulainn]

I find it odd that a group of people that generally treat the Bill of Rights on the same scale as the 10 Commandments are more than happy to infringe of other people's rights when it deals with something they personally dislike.

What does the Bill of Rights have to do with what we're talking about?

Not allowing some American citizens to market their legal items does count as a violation in my opinion.

A gun show organizer who bars certain vendors is NOT violating their rights. A gun show is a private enterprise, and the organizers can allow or bar whomever they want.

Furthermore, as citizens in capitalist republic, we're within our rights to bring market and social pressure on that private enterprise to stop a busines practice we believe is harmful. The Bill of Rights does not require me -- a private citizen -- to stand silently as someone spews racist filth. Indeed, that notion flips the 1st Amt on its head and turns it into a tool to shame me into silencing my voice rather than protecting my voice.

Look, I'd stand beside you and defend the Nazi scum's rights if the government tried to shut them up. But we're talking about a private enterprise not allowing them under its banner. Frankly, I'm perplexed that the distinction seems to be eluding some people.

 

[cuchulainn]

it has everything to do with the constitution.

Really? Care to explain how the Constitution requires a private enterprise to allow all comers under its banner?

Nazi items are legal to sell, to own, to buy.

Yes they are. But there's a distinction between the seller of war memorabilia (with which I have no problem) and the seller of racist propaganda (which I dislike).

My values are, mind your damn bussiness

And yet, here you are telling us how to think. Hey, I've got no problem with that. That's your right. I'm telling you how to think. You're telling me how to think. That's the nature of bulletin boards. But I find it amusing that you're breaking the values you suggest we follow

 

[Hkmp5sd]

But we're talking about a private enterprise not allowing them under its banner. Frankly, I'm perplexed that the distinction seems to be eluding some people.

So you are telling me that you think it is perfectly alright for a gun show promoter to deny "Pink Pistols" (pro-gun homosexual group) and "JPFO" (pro-gun Jewish group) from setting up tables?

 

[cuchulainn]

So you are telling me that you think it is perfectly alright for a gun show promoter to deny "Pink Pistols" (pro-gun homosexual group) and "JPFO" (pro-gun Jewish group) from setting up tables?

Alright? No. Within his rights? Yes.

I think the PPs and JPFO ought to be there, but they have no right to be there if the owner/operator doesn't want them.

Would you insist that a Christian group allow a vendor of Satanic material at its event? Would you insist that a Jewish group allow a vendor of Holocaust denial books at its event? Would you insist that a gay group allow a vendor of anti-gay vitriol at its event?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I don't believe you open the doors to the public and then exclude certain groups because of prejudice. That amounts to discrimination.

 

[sendtoscott]

Lets take a poll then, who on this thread

A. Doesn't mind associating with Nazi gun controlling mass murderers

or

B. Does mind being associated with Nazi gun controlling mass murderers