Gunshot at a Gun Show

[kingpin008]

Metzroth - Possession of a FOID card does not prevent some idiot from pulling a trigger when they shouldn't.

And as far as the dealer being responsible for providing a safe firearm for the customers to handle and inspect, in this case it WAS safe, even if there was a round in the chamber. The gun didn't go off on it's own. It was made to go off by some idiot who didn't pay attention to the four rules, and who ended up hurting three people badly as a result.

There is NO reason for that mysterious idiot to have pulled that trigger without knowing the status of that gun. If he wanted to test the trigger pull, then he should have first ASKED the vendor whether or not it was OK to do so, and then CHECKED THE CHAMBER himself to verify it was unloaded. That's just common sense, not to mention good manners.

 

[Balrog]

I agree with what you are saying Kingpin, and we as gun enthusiasts all know that, but I think a lawyer could have a field day with a gun left loaded and unattended by a vendor at a gun show. At a minimun, the vendor would be partially culpable. The fact that he is a vendor implies that he has a higher level of knowledge about guns than Joe Shmoe, idiot off the street, who just happened to pull the trigger on a gun that should have been unloaded. Non firearms enthusiasts don't know about the rules of firearms safety, and certainly would not consider them to have any legal importance.

 

[danez71]

And as far as the dealer being responsible for providing a safe firearm for the customers to handle and inspect, in this case it WAS safe, even if there was a round in the chamber. The gun didn't go off on it's own. It was made to go off by some idiot who didn't pay attention to the four rules, and who ended up hurting three people badly as a result.

Let not turn this into 'a gun, in & of itself, is not dangerous' debate again.

This is clearly all about gun handling and not about a gun just sitting there.


The first "idiot", as you say, was the vendor for not following the first rule of 'Treat every gun as if its loaded'.

If the vendor had followed that rule, he would have checked & unloaded it as that is the shows rule.

The 2nd 'idiot' as you say, missed a couple of the rules.

How the round got in the chamber and when is also a whole 'nuther' issue.

 

[Balrog]

The fact is, the rules were not followed, the gun was fired negligently, and it will now most likely up to a court to decide who gets what proportion of the blame. The rules of gun safety really only apply til the gun goes bang. After that, its up to a jury.

 

[W L Johnson]

Why don't they just pass a law requiring people to check the chamber before pulling the trigger? New laws always fix the problem.

I'm not trying to make fun of a serious incident, I'm just trying to make the point that if we don't police ourselves then that just give the govt the excuse to step in. As if they needed an excuse.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I worry more about getting hit with a car in the parking lot walking into the show, than I worry about getting shot with a gun inside the show. Still it is no excuse to be slack about gun safety. Treat every gun as a loaded, lethal weapon, especially if you just know for sure it's not loaded.

Our local gun shows have a person (often a cop) at the door to inspect and cable-tie every gun brought in to sell or trade. The venders' guns are no exception. It is not surprising to have a person uninterested in guns to bring in a gun to sell which they had inherited, unaware that the gun was loaded when their Uncle Joe passed on, because they knew nothing about guns.

 

[stonecutter2]

Thanks, Cutter. I wasn't clear on that when I said no ty wraps -- I meant on vendor weapons. So, if this rifle actually was a "bring in" then at some point after it came in the ty wrap was removed and the weapon was loaded.

I hope the paper tomorrow defines where the rifle came from. The tv news did not mention it one way or another...

It should be noted that while I was 20ft from where this incident occurred, near the crime scene tape, I saw a man with an M1A over his shoulder. Zip tie on the triggerguard...only around the triggerguard. Nothing preventing someone from chambering a round and firing the weapon, except the zip tie might have to be slid forward of the trigger a little...maybe.

The zip ties weren't really disabling the guns, they were just showing they checked them at the door.

 

[Balrog]

The zip ties weren't really disabling the guns, they were just showing they checked them at the door.

I bet there is a lawyer somewhere that would like to know that.

 

[IROCZ]

Elderberry, Do you have any evidence of this? Was this incident investigated? I'm refferring to firearms being loaded before the show in Effingham. Thanks.

 

[stonecutter2]

I bet there is a lawyer somewhere that would like to know that.

I'm going to the show again today, and I'll see if protocol is any different.

 

[sonick808]

yikes. I was born and raised in Bloomington/Normal. I've been to that show at the sale barn many a time. Sure hope the injured is "OK". the local paper is the pantagraph (dot com), they'll probably have info

 

[sonick808]

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html

EDIT: Sorry, I see we have some folks from BMI on here. Didn't realize there were 3 pages of informative posts already. sorry about that. Just consider this a re-post

 

[Hanzo581]

It's really simple, use zip ties to make all firearms in the show (vendors/buyers/sellers) are inoperable. I had no idea so many shows apparently don't do this. And now knowing it, I am surprised more accidents don't happen.

I mean there is no way a vendor can keep track of what patrons do when they have six people behind the table and a hundred perusing their goods. Most major vendors get by with this by using ties as well as a cabling system to ensure I can't walk off with a gun while the salesman are distracted.

I'd rather some stricter safety rules be put in place than give antis any more "ammunition".

 

[elderberry]

Elderberry, Do you have any evidence of this? Was this incident investigated? I'm refferring to firearms being loaded before the show in Effingham. Thanks.

No. Unfortunately my information is 2nd hand and I really should not have posted it since I have no first hand knowledge of the incident.

And to 7thCavScout -- I shouldn't have jumped on you for posting that link -- you were just being helpful. My apologies....

 

[seldomseensmith]

Darwin award. End of story.

 

[2WheelsGood]

Darwin award. End of story.

Not at all. Darwin Awards are for people who do stupid things and get THEMSELVES killed. The guy shot was completely innocent.

 

[liberty -r- death]

Like I posted earlier. I was there. So many ways this could have not happened if gun safety had been observed.

I can say that I have been to a number of ECA gun shows in Illinois over the last several years, and every gun I have every taken through the door has simply had a zip tie place around the trigger guard. Nothing like the shows I've been to in OK or TX. In OK or TX they tend to zip tie chamber or barrel to show the gun has been checked including the breach in the barrel.

My guess is that the dealer did check the gun. He may have dropped the clip and opened the action to clear it, but failed to check the breach of the barrel. Usually in a semi auto that is the case. Obviously no one can know for sure, but that would be a good guess if I were to venture a guess.

 

[stonecutter2]

Went to the show again today, my friend brought in a pistol to look for a holster that fits it.

A zip tie was placed on his pistol through the chamber, securing the firearm.

Every pistol in the show had zip ties through their chambers, or in a way to make them inoperable.

I saw vendors snipping off the zip ties occasionally to demonstrate the pistol or rifle, then reattach them.

I think it's a very difficult way to learn to enforce safety, but it's for the better.

Again, big difference today vs. yesterday at the show - every gun I saw today including my friend's gun was securely zip tied through the action.

 

[2WheelsGood]

I think it's a very difficult way to learn to enforce safety, but it's for the better.

I'm not so sure it's for the better. It's yet another crutch meant to protect people from themselves. All it does is continue to breed this mentality that it's OK to walk through life in a fog. What's going to happen when these guns leave the show? Is there always going to be someone around to put a zip-tie through the action?

You may be thinking that this is good for the rest of the participants. Maybe. But what happens when this same numbskull goes to the range for the first time and kills the guy in the lane next to him? Or what happens when he "cleans" it for the first time while his kid is in the next room watching TV?

 

[CoreyI35]

So what are you saying, that some people are too stupid to own guns? (This I agree with, btw.) Maybe I'm just reading something into your post that isn't there, but it seems like you're saying we need some way of keeping the idiots away from guns. How does one test for such idiocy? How stupid can you be and still be able to legally own a firearm?

 

[W.E.G.]

Next time somebody says "You can't hit anything with Mini-14," I'm not gonna believe them.

 

[XxWINxX94]

I just aired the story on the Chicago news.

In my opinion, why did the guy not check, and double check the chamber of the gun? I think quite a few folks are responsible here but the first thing I do is check and make sure there is nothing in the chamber, and very rarely even dry fire it, at that.

 

[larryf1952]

So what are you saying, that some people are too stupid to own guns? (This I agree with, btw.) Maybe I'm just reading something into your post that isn't there, but it seems like you're saying we need some way of keeping the idiots away from guns. How does one test for such idiocy? How stupid can you be and still be able to legally own a firearm?

And therein, lies the rub.

 

[PastTense]

Here is some followup:
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_8aa90350-42ea-11e0-a641-001cc4c002e0.html

Brief Youtube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbBzKpL4n44
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2RK_vipaw
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnefE1MFbJI

 

[makarovnik]

I see a lot of stupid people selling guns at the shows. One time I was at a show I saw this gun and asked "How many rounds does it hold?" The FFL dealer opened up a box of ammo, loads the magazine and inserts it into the pistol and says "13". Silly boy.