Lots of very good points in here, I see what you mean about not facing a trained opponent. But I am considering the thug who is well versed in street fighting. I have faced some "experienced" guys while working as a bouncer and it was frightening what they had picked up from fights and watching the UFC, certainly a wake up call.
How many of you can defend yourself without your firearm
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Lots of very good points in here, I see what you mean about not facing a trained opponent. But I am considering the thug who is well versed in street fighting. I have faced some "experienced" guys while working as a bouncer and it was frightening what they had picked up from fights and watching the UFC, certainly a wake up call.
Deltaboy1984
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20 years + of Kempo and Tia Chi, US Army Hand to Hand and Knife training, Prison yard knfie fighting and studing applying the tactics of the Jo and police baton or riot batons to the cane since my right ankle has gone South.
X-Rap
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The experienced street criminal may well have done time in prison in which he was given plenty of time to polish the dirty ways of the street. The ruthlessness of hard core criminals is difficult to fathom for some and we civilized folks have to act entirely out of character to reach that level of violence even if we have experience with it at some level. Behaving like an animal is not in the peacful and civilized mans nature.
Deaf Smith
Member
While I agree with M2, I do have well over 30 years TKD, Krav Maga, and boxing.
Do I want to go H2H? HECK NO.
But guys, remember a fight is a fight. It may be H2H, H2Rock, H2Belt Buckle, H2E2D defender, H2... well you get the idea.
Learn to use environmental weapons and how to spot them.
Leave the fair fights to the idiots.
Deaf
That's true, but luckily they're not that common if you're concerned about random street encounters.
One of my last teachers was a corrections officer on the worst block of a max security prison. He'd made a lifetime study of non-Japanese Asian and SE Asian and Filipino martial arts and of violent criminal behavior singularly and in gangs. His insights and instruction opened my eyes to the fact that most criminals are may be vicious punks, but there are some that spend their time working on developing skills to injure and kill others. The chance of encountering them is relatively small compared to the jackals. If you are overmatched in skill, your will to live and to not quit may carry you through, or luck (never to be discounted). There's always someone out there vicious and skilled enough to kill you, but don't let that fact deter you from learning to defend yourself. You'll probably never encounter one of those people and the rest can be beaten. If you do have a run in with one of them you may still get lucky.
I've been assaulted by people much bigger than me and by greater numbers and I've had someone try to stab me. One of our other moderators who is a retired LE says I must be one of the unluckiest people outside of the criminal community. He may be correct, but I'm still here and the majority of the debilitating injuries I've suffered have been in training or recreation.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
If some form of cardiovascular excercise is not part of your weapon retention program, you won't last long in a real struggle.
It's not just about having the mental skill to perform the actions. If your body, all the way down to your cells, cannot release the energy in enough quantities and for enough time to keep you going, you'll lose.
You can have all the mindset in the world combined with as many training classes to put the skills in your head. But if your cells cannot produce and release ATP(the body's source of energy) you simply will not perform the correct actions. Your mind will tell your muscles to do it, and your muscles will say no.If you are out of shape, your body will run through the "Phosphogen System" in about 10 seconds. After that it use the anaerobic system for about 45 seconds to 2 minutes. These numbers go down the more out of shape you are. Finally, your body switches to the aerobic system which is for long term energy.
Training to get as much out of each of these phases is key. If you don't, your muscles will run out of ATP during the fight, and you will not be able to fight back at all.
A BG goes for your gun, and you execute a perfect retention move. You struggle for 15-20 seconds while he tries to push your arms away, and you try to open the distance. Whoever runs out of ATP first, loses no matter what moves their head knows. Your grip on the gun will just loosen. You won't want it to. The muscles in your hand will just not be able to contract any longer. The will to live is important. But the will to live does not create more ATP for your cells to use.
And none of that even addresses how your brain and thought processes will suffer from the lack of oxygen in your bloodstream.
It's not just about having the mental skill to perform the actions. If your body, all the way down to your cells, cannot release the energy in enough quantities and for enough time to keep you going, you'll lose.
You can have all the mindset in the world combined with as many training classes to put the skills in your head. But if your cells cannot produce and release ATP(the body's source of energy) you simply will not perform the correct actions. Your mind will tell your muscles to do it, and your muscles will say no.If you are out of shape, your body will run through the "Phosphogen System" in about 10 seconds. After that it use the anaerobic system for about 45 seconds to 2 minutes. These numbers go down the more out of shape you are. Finally, your body switches to the aerobic system which is for long term energy.
Training to get as much out of each of these phases is key. If you don't, your muscles will run out of ATP during the fight, and you will not be able to fight back at all.
A BG goes for your gun, and you execute a perfect retention move. You struggle for 15-20 seconds while he tries to push your arms away, and you try to open the distance. Whoever runs out of ATP first, loses no matter what moves their head knows. Your grip on the gun will just loosen. You won't want it to. The muscles in your hand will just not be able to contract any longer. The will to live is important. But the will to live does not create more ATP for your cells to use.
And none of that even addresses how your brain and thought processes will suffer from the lack of oxygen in your bloodstream.
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Loosedhorse
member
And how long do you anticipate that struggle to last? Weapon retention is not about wrestling over the weapon; it is about ending his grip NOW.
And you feel that general conditioning helps the grip-endurance of your hand?
Weapon retention techniques are not designed to go muscle against muscle, strength versus strength. I suggest that, to the extent you do that, you've already lost your weapon.
BTW, part of your weapon-retention protocol should be a saftied weapon, and a backup gun, IMHO.
wheelgunslinger
Member
More to the point, we have a large number of couch potatoes in our civilian population.
Usually in an event of mass hysteria, there are at least some critical condition people who have heart issues due to experiencing an adrenalin dump and their body not being ready for it.
I can think of a couple of very large guys who play with tacticool stuff and believe their gun or knife and mass (schoolyard bully mentality) will absolve them from having to struggle.
Cardio training is necessary and part of the package. So is maintaining overall health.
If you're obese and it's been a decade since your last encounter with a bad guy, you're not the person you were 10 years ago, biologically and psychologically.
Train your entire person. Don't just deck out a meatsack with weapons and hope for the best. Failure at the chemical level (ATP, oxygen debt, etc) means a total failure.
I am basically a 5'5" circus midget, 130 lbs. I have arms like Spongebob, I ain't gonna lie. Yes, I have worked out, tried to gain weight, but evidently, my body says no. I don't stand a chance against a 6' 250 lb guy, shoot, I'd say nowdays, even a 6' 240lb woman, the way they workout nowdays. I'm old and done. Maybe I'll land a good lick or two... But I'm gonna try to run first. Without a piece, I'm probably not much good to anybody as far as defense. I do so admire the physical fitness of todays younger generation, just hope they use it for the purposes of good.
I heard a saying somewhere I liked " Your friends will get me in a rush, but not before I turn YOUR head into a canoe".
I heard a saying somewhere I liked " Your friends will get me in a rush, but not before I turn YOUR head into a canoe".
Trunk Monkey
member
loosedhorse said:
Do those weapon retention techniques work perfectly every single time? Are you absolutely positive that you will never end up struggling with the bad guy over your gun? I had a friend back in college that woke up one night with an intruder on top of her and had to fight him off bare handed. Stuff happens.
I mentioned in an earlier post that all you’re doing is adding another tool to your tool box. You must, on some level, agree or you wouldn’t have studied weapons retention techniques. If better cardio vascular conditioning than you have now helps you to perform those techniques better why not work on it?
No one can foresee or train for every situation that you could end up in but I can’t think of one in which better cardio vascular conditioning or better fitness in general would leave you worse off.
If worse comes to worse I don’t have to worry about out running the bear, just you.
Here is a video (starring me) that proves my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM9HsyZpREk
I'm the one in red
Loosedhorse
member
Dopey questions, IMHO. Weapon retention techniques are not perfect, of course. Doing take-away/retention drills with a similarly trained opponent shows you how much dancing is involved--with the retainer almost always keeping control of the gun.
But, as hso mentioned, I'm not sure we need to anticipate that our gun-grabber is that trained in take-aways. Or a marathoner, for that matter.
(Rory Miller has a great description of the first time he had to go mano a mano with a real-live, infamously vicious gang-banger. It's pretty funny.)
In short: I will never choose to play tug of war with my gun, since I have better techniques immediately available. Just as I will never choose to use my loaded gun as a club: it is a tool that can be used in a more effective way, so I'll just do that.
And that is my point. Realize (as I suspect you do) that with a much bigger, homicidal opponent, you will have a disparity-of-force justification if you shoot him, even if he is unarmed.
Whether the prosecutor and the jury go for it is a separate question, unfortunately.
(And standard weapon retention techniques will work for you, too; again, they do not match strength against strength...but quickness is going to help a whole, whole lot.)
I can. We all have limited training time. If I become a serial marathoner (and perhaps you know the training time involved), and so short-change my pistol training--and then I run into a situation that requires the skilled use of the pistol to save me...
Well, at least my corpse will look very fit!
Balance. Do what you like.
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I've been in a few fist fights, and a couple things worse than that. I've won some and I've lost some. I didn't enjoy any of them enough to think I needed "full contact" practice.
Training? Sure, I've got a little. Not much, but a little. Sparring? Yeah, I enjoy it, s'long as we're not actually trying to injure each other (choke me out, no problem; punch me in the nose as hard as you can, problem).
R
Training? Sure, I've got a little. Not much, but a little. Sparring? Yeah, I enjoy it, s'long as we're not actually trying to injure each other (choke me out, no problem; punch me in the nose as hard as you can, problem).
R
JVaughn
Member
The type of violence most unarmed citizens are subject to is the stronger criminal preying on the weaker members of society. Your typical bad guy looking to rob a random target on the street isn't going to choose a 28 y.o. male with a marine haircut, that would be too much risk. Self defense is a mindset. You have to be a tough target as well as prepared. I suspect (though I have no data to back this up) that there are more incidents of a CCW holder pulling a weapon, no discharge, and the would be assailant fleeing the scene. You don't get this story in the paper, because there was nothing to report; but I bet it happens more than we realize.
I think if you are police or military or in another career where you are putting yourself in danger often, you need plenty of training. People who want to mind their own business and carry for emergencies aren't likely to end up in a self defense situation anyhow. Training is always a plus of course, but who has time for constant training?
I think if you are police or military or in another career where you are putting yourself in danger often, you need plenty of training. People who want to mind their own business and carry for emergencies aren't likely to end up in a self defense situation anyhow. Training is always a plus of course, but who has time for constant training?
Loosedhorse
member
Actually, for a SD encounter, you may have to worry about outrunning a bullet. Good luck with that.
Oh, since you brought up bears, make sure to brush up on the right MMA moves for bear attack. As no one can out-run a bear, you may need to be able to stand your ground, aim, and fire. Otherwise, you just die tired.
Some of us have hunted dangerous game. Some of us have spent months preparing for what to do if we're changed by a dangerous animal--and preparing for how best to prevent that.
No professional hunter, guide or outfitter I've ever encountered has recommended training to run away from a charging animal.
wheelgunslinger
Member
and unlimited excuses.
No one is talking marathons.
Loosedhorse
member
Ah. So, perhaps you will outline for us what IS the appropriate level; since marathons are too much, and what "most of us" are already doing is apparently too little?
It sure seems like some here are talking about a life-long commitment to MA, and all others need not apply.
The big thing for me is I love it. I train 3-4 hours a night. Outside of my wife, reloading and firearms, it is my life. My gym saved my life(put me on the right track, lost 100lbs, quit smoking, etc....) and now it is permanently part of me. I understand this may not be the case for everyone.
I am not talking that, I know some people don't like getting hit and some people don't have any interest in that form of activity. But some basic weapon retention, along with a simple fitness plan does seem important. TrunkMonkey is right, if you our out of shape, you won't be able to fight as well, run as well, or do any of the very other physical motions as well that are required in a self defense situation.
Loosedhorse
member
And good for you. Sincerely meant. We should all do what we love, to the extent it is possible.
And if you are "out of shape" with your firearm practice, you may not be able to do that as well.
I think the balance struck will be a little different for everyone, and that's fine with me. And I think that the main benefit of regular exercise is not that it will sustain you in an unarmed bar fight.
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Thank you, I also see where you are coming from that I am probably neglecting some time I could be putting into pistol training...
nickn10
Member
I'm 70 yrs old and I no longer want to fight. BUT I read of a crafty old man, who feigned a heart attack, dropped to the ground, pulled out his pistol and shot the piece of crap, three times. END OF FIGHT! Your brain is your best weapon.
Ghost Tracker
Member
I would guess the answer is gonna' be a universal YES! The fact that someone is a concealed weapon carrier suggests that they're aware & prepared to defend themselves regardless of the tools available. Yes I can, with a garden rake, a trash can lid, my keys, a rock, my cane or a nearby car antenna. But there's a common mistake among generally peaceful people that regularly results in their serious injury or death. It's the whole fool-hearty concept & mindset of self-defense.
Once the threat has been recognized it is critical that we IMMEDIATELY move to the mindset & tactics of OFFENSE, not defense. Percentages move radically in our favor the faster we can make that transition. Our defense is simply being awake & aware, that's it. But "defense" ends the very instant the threat occurs. Once the recognition & commitment is made in OUR mind, we have fulfilled the legal & moral requirements for action. But that action MUST be self-OFFENSE! Please appreciate the difference. No one blocks their way to winning a fight. We won't halt a determined assailant by deflecting his blows. Reaching for your CCW won't stop him, only drawing & scoring vital hits will. The most effective way to stop an attacking jackal is to instantly & shockingly become his worst...NIGHTMARE! Like he just mistakenly stepped into a spinning propeller, snapped by a bear-trap, inside a hornet's nest, blind & underwater. Rapid, aggressive, loud, vicious, violent, rabid actions are the LAST things he expects from a "victim". It tilts the psychological playing field towards us. Now the roles are reversed, we ACT
(offense) and HE RESPONDS
(defense)! See the difference? I'm old & retired from a previous life of, well...uh, adventure abroad. I've been lucky enough to learn some things from some of the best teachers Uncle Sam's big wallet could afford. But this little idea is the best piece of survival instruction I've ever received. I PRAY y'all will never need to know...if it works.
pbearperry
Member
Outside of my shooting skills,I have developed a pretty good survival skill.I am constantly looking all around and being aware of my surroundings.I am always in condition Yellow and avoid walking into bad scenarios.
If more people would get off the damn cell phones,and stop text messaging,maybe they would not be so vulnerable?
If more people would get off the damn cell phones,and stop text messaging,maybe they would not be so vulnerable?
I guess that question would depend on who I was defending myself against. If my adversary was a 20 year old experienced fighter, then no, I'm over matched. But what did they say on that movie, the 300, you "fight with your brain and you fight with your heart". I'd try something. But at 60, if it was a knock down drag out, I'd be at a disadvantage.
Beaux Nehr
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LOL, well, if you go to the extreme of picturing an old man with a fu man chu that knocks people over with one finger, then you are correct.
However, you're right in a sense, after I got to around 6'3", 190 lbs, my dad (5'9" or so, and still pretty dang athletic) had more physical difficulty getting me to a point where he could pull a move. BUT, like HSO said his experience always made him win easily.
For me, the judo concepts he taught me are perfect for protecting a concealed weapon. I may not be able to defeat any of the people in this thread, but I sure as heck will be able to force their bodies in a direction other than my face.
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