How many of you can defend yourself without your firearm

[Loosedhorse]

I really wouldn't feel comfortable thinking my gun was going to protect me if I had no idea how to hold onto it, if it came to that.

...I think a fearless, remotely fit person could take a gun away from the majority of CCW holders before they got a shot off and that is a scary thought.

Perhaps your question is then: "Who here is trained in, and regularly practices, weapon retention?"

Me, for one. And, BTW, the best weapon retention method (IMHO) to use against an attacker who you believe will kill you once he has your weapon?

SHOOT HIM AND KEEP SHOOTING HIM. None of this wrestling business. He can have my empty gun if he still wants it.

 

[heeler]

^^^..Too funny.
But really true.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Isn’t there a moderator here that has “Mindset, Skillset, Toolset” for a sig line?

This is one of those write a book or say nothing topics.

Short answer; yes I can fight without a gun if I have to. However if attacked by a stranger on the street I would only be fighting as long as it took to get the gun out.

Long answer; there are so many different layers to this onion I wouldn’t know where to begin. Situational awareness is, IMO, a self defense technique. So is running away. If you get pushed into a fight you’d better fight to win.

If all you do is train to fight without any type of strength or endurance training you are, again IMO, wasting your time. I distinctly remember attending a martial arts class at the Nelson rec center on Ft Lewis and watching a pregnant “black belt” try to do a board break repeatedly and not succeed.

It is also my opinion that if you are going to train to fight you need to train full contact so you know exactly what getting hit feels like.

All that said, closing with and fighting a stranger on the street would be something I would never do of my own free will.

Last thought; if you spend the rest of your life working out, getting fit and training in some fighting discipline and never have to use it you still had a life of fitness and good health.

 

[leadcounsel]

Sure, I have some training and am relatively fit for *gasp* my age. But fights aren't fair based upon age, experience, training, weapons and numbers.

You never know the level of experience or fitness of your opponent, nor their numbers. In a fight, it can quickly go from "just playin'" to deadly. A punch or fall can immobilize or kill a person. Once you are down and immobilized or knocked out, you are at the mercy of the other person(s). Or how about those knuckle dusters or that box cutter you didn't see...

I deem any real world fight as a deadly threat and would react appropriately. If you CCW you're a fool to enter into a boxing match with someone... And if you don't CCW, you're a fool...

 

[robMaine]

Sure, I have some training and am relatively fit for *gasp* my age. But fights aren't fair based upon age, experience, training, weapons and numbers.

You never know the level of experience or fitness of your opponent, nor their numbers. In a fight, it can quickly go from "just playin'" to deadly. A punch or fall can immobilize or kill a person. Once you are down and immobilized or knocked out, you are at the mercy of the other person(s). Or how about those knuckle dusters or that box cutter you didn't see...

I deem any real world fight as a deadly threat and would react appropriately. If you CCW you're a fool to enter into a boxing match with someone... And if you don't CCW, you're a fool...

I am not talking about choosing to go hand-to-hand, but what about the person who charges you as you draw and ties up before you can get your weapon out? It is this mind set that I find scary, the I don't need to fight, I've got a gun. For example, get a plastic training gun, put it in your preferred holster and have a buddy start 3-5 feet away. No have your friend charge you as hard and fast as they can. I really doubt you will be draw quick enough to even effectively point shoot from retention position.

 

[coolluke01]

I don't feel that I'm going to for sure win a hand battle. I do feel very confident in my training to deflect an attack and allow me time to draw my CC.
I think this is the most important question

I am not talking about choosing to go hand-to-hand, but what about the person who charges you as you draw and ties up before you can get your weapon out?

I believe that you need to be able to make the quick decision of whether or not you should draw or deflect.
If they are closer than 26' you WILL NOT be able to draw and fire on a fast person running at you. Wait for the attack and deflect then draw. Having a gun halfway out leaves you very vulnerable to attack. Use the attackers momentum to throw them off balance and step back a few paces as you draw. This will give you separation and provide you time to draw.
If you don't believe the 26' figure I would advise you to test it your self. Many say 20'. I have tested it out to 26'. On my most recent test I stood along side the shooter with my hand on their shoulder, facing the opposite direction. They stood 10' from the target with gun on their hip. I took off running away from them, when my hand left their shoulder they were to draw and fire twice. I made it 23' before the first shot and stopped running I would have been about 30' by the second shot. Both Shots missed the target. They were so rushed to shoot the missed a full size target at 10'! This is a drill we need to practice!
From a standstill I can get to you, before most people can draw from a unsecured weapon on their hip, from 26'. How much farther do you need to be if you have your weapon concealed? It takes time to sweep a garment and draw. Plus you don't know for sure they are going to sprint at you.

 

[hso]

Yes (but not the "before..."). My MA training has saved me on more than one occasion.

We also have a whole forum dedicated to non firearms weapons and their use.

 

[JustinJ]

Its certainly a benefit to be able to defend one's self in as many different ways as possible but no matter how good you fight there are countless people out there who can beat you in hand to hand. Women also are of course at a huge disadvantage at hand to hand against men. So no, one does not need to be versed in hand to hand combat before they should consider carrying a gun.

 

[Losov]

Depends upon the type of attack and from whom. Generally, if I can get my hand on your wrist, it's over. If you're over three hundred pounds, it might not be. The last guy who tried was screaming in pain when I let him up to be cuffed by the police.

The absolute last thing I want to do is draw my weapon. The first thing I want to do is not get myself into that kind of situation.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm not too worried about having a firearm taken away. I *AM* worried about drunks, tweakers and assorted knuckleheads who want to brawl or fight but have no weapon and would not be considered a deadly threat by the jury for someone of my size.

So I can't shoot them. And I can't run from them without getting tackled. Thus far I just practice avoidance, but if it ever comes down to it the best I can come up with are taking some punches while delivering a few swift kicks to the groin and knees to facilitate a hasty retreat. It's far from satisfactory and I blame myself for never having found the time for training.

I'm concerned that I don't have the defenses against punches and conversely that my size 13's would do more damage than I intended in a kick. So it's a bad mix of too much and too little. If I grapple and tackle, I'm large and strong enough I could snap a spine which is NOT something I ever want to do to a mere drunk. But realistically all I'd need to do is grab someone in a choke hold and fall on them. I haven't wrestled with anyone since I was in my mid-teens, and it stopped then because my older brothers started getting hurt ;-) So I'm way out of practice. It's just bad all around.

 

[Creature]

Me and my teammates got to talking about self defense and most of them felt that you should be able to defend yourself hand-to-hand before you think about carrying a gun.

Explain this to my wife who, at her heaviest, weighs less than 100lbs and who has never been in a physical altercation in her life or trained in any kind of hand-to-hand martial arts. It is precisely because of this that she carries a gun for self-defense.

 

[robMaine]

Explain this to my wife who, at her heaviest, weighs less than 100lbs and who has never been in a physical altercation in her life or trained in any kind of hand-to-hand martial arts. It is precisely because of this that she carries a gun for self-defense.

This is why I don't 100% agree with my buddies, but still firearms retention training should be very important to someone like her to avoid having her weapon taken away.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Originally Posted by Creature
Explain this to my wife who, at her heaviest, weighs less than 100lbs and who has never been in a physical altercation in her life or trained in any kind of hand-to-hand martial arts. It is precisely because of this that she carries a gun for self-defense.

RobMaine beat me to it but bottom line your wife should have some plan for self defense that involves being attacked before she can get her gun out.

On a slightly different note, if I were attacked by any random stranger for any reason I would assume that that person meant to kill me and would respond accordingly. I don’t mean that to sound “badass” my intent is to express that I would fight back with every tool at my disposal.

I think maybe the idea that you should know how to defend yourself hand to hand before you carry a gun is a little unrealistic but unarmed self-defense definitely needs to be a component on your overall skill set.

I know I’ve touched on this in a previous post but general fitness should be part of your over self defense strategy. We spend a lot of time discussing the tools (right gun, right holster, right whiz bang tactical fighting ink pen, yada, yada, yada.) but how often do we read a thread in which the OP is 67 inches tall and has a 67 inch waist and wants to know what kind of gun belt they need? ( a smaller one perhaps?)

I am aware that this is my opinion but in my opinion if you are carrying more than 20 pounds of excess fat on your body maybe you need to hold off on that new Glock and invest the money in a gym membership instead.

 

[thunder173]

At 61 +, I am not inclined to go toe to toe with anyone. Could I? Maybe. Would I? Not if I had a better option,...like: run,...fight dirty,..or if warranted,...just shoot the aggressor, ....if I can.

The last "bug tussle" I managed to not avoid was with a young man much larger than me, who was half my age, ....and not that long ago. Unarmed, and faced with the unavoidable choice of either fighting,...or getting my rear end kicked anyways,...my comment to him was to the effect that if you can make this last more than 5 punches,....you win.

He didn't.

I did.

Rule: IMHO,...if you find yourself in a fair fight,...you have already failed step one,....avoidance,.....and your tactics suck.

 

[Loosedhorse]

And I can't run from them without getting tackled.

Depends whether you start running after he's decided to fight you...or before. I'm a before type of guy. As you said, avoidance.

Being attacked by several unarmed persons is usually enought to get your gun out: you'll have to decide that at the moment. If ONE (apparently) unarmed guy comes at you, there's a decision to be made.

I'm currently (believe it or not) of an appearence that most single attackers would not choose to attack me, unless I give them reason; and I won't. So, if I guy does come at me, I may have reason to assume he's irrational or drugged; or has a hidden weapon; or hidden friends. (Not bad assumptions for any of us, actually.)

If I actually think I should not draw, that doesn't mean I have to "settle" on taking his punch. If I'm convinced he's attacking me, I'll land the first hit. Not softly. The law says I don't have to take the first bullet to legally defend myself; I'm not going to take the first punch, either, if I can help it.

But I sure like running: run early, run often. I like yelling, "Help, call the police, stop him!" too.

 

[robMaine]

I know I’ve touched on this in a previous post but general fitness should be part of your over self defense strategy. We spend a lot of time discussing the tools (right gun, right holster, right whiz bang tactical fighting ink pen, yada, yada, yada.) but how often do we read a thread in which the OP is 67 inches tall and has a 67 inch waist and wants to know what kind of gun belt they need? ( a smaller one perhaps?)

I am aware that this is my opinion but in my opinion if you are carrying more than 20 pounds of excess fat on your body maybe you need to hold off on that new Glock and invest the money in a gym membership instead.

I was trying to avoid the fitness component to avoid causing offense/arguments, but this is dead on. I would be a little less harsh on the 20 pounds, mainly due to the fact that when I am bulking I can have 20-30 pounds of excess weight on myself, but I can always run a mile under 7:30, and other various fitness goals I hold myself to,

Maybe a better standard would to be able to hold a 200 or above for your age group on an APFT?

 

[KodiakBeer]

Not me. I've got a couple of moves that might allow me to escape a beat-down if I can run fast enough after using them, but I'm 54 and small of stature. I'm not going to rassle with a younger stronger man if my life is at stake, and I don't have to because I carry a gun.

 

[xXxplosive]

Hey Buddy........got a match ?
Then comes the sucker punch out of nowhere and......it's on.

Draw a CCW to defend yourself......?
Where...?
Your either knocked down, knocked out or staggering up against a car or wall. What just happened...? and now your being robbed or worse.

Best thing is Prevention and to "Keep Your Distance" from people you don't know.....a perimeter if you will. If some one approaches that you don't know.....don't let them close the distance.....tell them to Stop Right There.

Don't place yourself in jeapordy and keep aware of your surroundings.....

And maybe you won't have to go hand To hand........

 

[Loosedhorse]

I am aware that this is my opinion but in my opinion if you are carrying more than 20 pounds of excess fat on your body maybe you need to hold off on that new Glock and invest the money in a gym membership instead.

Sounds like the small and weak ought to start pumping iron, too.

Your point is taken, however: more of us will die of "lifestyle-related illness" (heart-attack, lung disease, diabetes, etc.) than in a bar fight, deciding whether or not to shoot someone. More of us will even die in our cars.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't buy that Glock, though. But buy the Glock AND take up...

Running! See: it's tactical, and it's good for you, too.

 

[snakeman]

If your gun is taken from you, you're probably getting shot. That said if an attacker gets my gun I'm doing my best to get to my kershaw. One thing I have heard is to carry pepper spray and use that to blind the attacker while you escape and if the attacker pursues go for your gun then.

 

[BRE346]

I'm 86, with no hand-to-hand training or experience. My only defence is distance and my handgun.

When your only weapon is hammer, everything becomes a nail.

 

[X-Rap]

Crooks and thugs don't fight fair and I bet most successful assaults begin with the victim being surprised and hit without notice or at least surprised.
Those of us blessed with size and strength are lucky if we are not hit in vulnerable places like the head or groin but that is no guarantee. Dirt bags also tend to travel in numbers so it helps to be with friends of your own when out on the town.
In the end though it is best to plan on being alone and being aware and having some basic skills that can separate and put distance between an attacker so you can deploy your equalizer.

 

[JustinJ]

Quote:
I am aware that this is my opinion but in my opinion if you are carrying more than 20 pounds of excess fat on your body maybe you need to hold off on that new Glock and invest the money in a gym membership instead.

Sounds like the small and weak ought to start pumping iron, too.

Your point is taken, however: more of us will die of "lifestyle-related illness" (heart-attack, lung disease, diabetes, etc.) than in a bar fight, deciding whether or not to shoot someone. More of us will even die in our cars.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't buy that Glock, though. But buy the Glock AND take up...

I absolutely agree that people should do both. But i've asked before how many actually address the far more likely threats in real life such as heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc. and only got crickets. I find it hard not to see somebody who smokes, drinks heavily, eats like crap, etc but then diverts excessive time and energy into defense from extremely unlikely attacks as just a grown man playing fort.

 

[Loosedhorse]

crickets

Well, perhaps it's just that this is a firearms/tactics forum, and talking exercise and diet (while well meant and important) sounds OT and preachy here.

I do note a fair number of us seem to be smokers, maybe fewer in the younger generation of shooters. I can't tell if the number of obese shooters is beyond the American norm (which is frightening anyway).

I know we have more hearing loss than our non-shooting neighbors!

 

[gripper]

As another former soldier,who boxed ,did MA,and has had a wide range of "interesting times",I would say yes....of course,my default setting would be to either escape&evade or to ARM myself.