How many of you can defend yourself without your firearm

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I wouldn't be able to defend myself against much without a gun, not that I wouldn't try. Probabably just wouldn't be too sucessful. On the other hand, I've never had to yet, with or without a gun. Avoiding dangerous situations is the best defense, although bad things can happen anywhere and anyplace. That's why an equalizer is nice to have!
 
robMaine said:
when I am bulking I can have 20-30 pounds of excess weight on myself,
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I did say 20 pounds of excess fat .

Loosedhorse said:
Sounds like the small and weak ought to start pumping iron, too.
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This goes back to one of my original points, you can have all the fighting technique in the world but if you don’t have the physical strength and cardio vascular endurance to back it up you’re wasting your time.
 
physical strength and cardio vascular endurance
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How much is enough for a fight? Whatever that level is, some folks will never have it. And "enough" is a pretty high goal--how high is up?

Maybe not the way it should be, but the way it is and will be. Our plans have to make room for reality...while understanding that whatever steps toward improvement that can be made should be.
 
Heh, hope your friends never grow old or get sick. Time robs everyone of their ability to kick-***. Sure, when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I was stupid and fearless and could take on other guys in their prime. As people get older, strength and stamina slips away. That's why it was so unusual to have someone like Brett Favre in the game and he was what - 40??? Most 50 YO guys won't be able to outfight the overwhelming majority of 20-somethings. That's why G_D (oh, I mean Colt) made the equalizer.

So, to answer your question - I'd would very likely get my butt kicked fighting a 20-something but I still would put up a decent fight (for now).
 
I am not saying I agree with this train of thought, but it got me thinking. How many of you have the training to defend yourself if your weapon is taken away? Or at least the training in weapon retention if your attacker is close/closes the distance? No to step on any toes but I am not talking karate/TKD/McDojo forms, but full contact training.
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I learned a lot of judo concepts with a very flexible background from my father, who was a formidable competitor in his day. I've had about 6" of height, and quite a few pounds on my height since I turned 16 or 17, but he's always been able to effortlessly fling me over his shoulder no matter the situation.

I agree that a lot of the forms of TKD that are practiced in the US are useless, but to assume that MMA is the end all/be all of options is foolhardy, at best. (I have attended an MMA class, and think the things you learn there are useful, but to not critically think about it is not wise)
Again, like they say, you fight like you train. What happens when an MMA fighter staggers an opponent? You immediately follow him to the ground.

Also, MMA does not give you any sort of frame of reference for dealing with more than one dude. My dad learned a lot during his younger years.
His best self defense lesson to me? When he told me about the time he defeated a group of 20 young soldiers looking for revenge (one of their buddies picked a fight with him and landed on his face.) He told me the key to that victory was being able to run faster than them, and hide better than they could look ;)
 
Well, perhaps it's just that this is a firearms/tactics forum, and talking exercise and diet (while well meant and important) sounds OT and preachy here.
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Nobody was talking exercise and diet but instead threat risk and perspective. Its a valid question and compared to much of what is typed here it was hardly preachy. I for one would like to know if people who do actually preach about how to be safe have a realistic perspective of threats to one's life.
 
I'm voted least likely to win a melee fight. Being small and short is a serious disadvantage. I practice martial arts regularly so I think that I stand at least a reasonable chance of coming out alive but injured. One thing I've done is I take fairly long walks at the end of the day, normally between 4 to 6 miles long, and for each person I see, I try to instantly do a threat assessment and an evaluation on what they are doing and what they might do.
 
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As I mentioned in my earlier post......the attack usually comes out of no where.....sometimes you don't even see it comming....but especially where I'm from....NJ.....where no one can carry a weapon of any type....guns, knives and yes even sling shots and elastic band guns are illeagle...one must be able to handle themselves to some degree.....'cause no one else is gonna help.
 
In my opinion unarmed self defense adds another level to my overall preparedness; it gives me one more option to draw on if I need to.

I decided to start carrying a gun because I perceived a risk and decided the risk justified the money time and effort required to get a concealed handgun permit and the training and practice required to become proficient.

I’ll grant I learned how to fight before I started carrying a gun but there is still a perceived risk. It’s taken for granted on almost any gun forum you go to that if we ever have to use our guns we will be starting out behind the curve and playing catch up. So, knowing how to fight gives me a way to protect the gun and give myself space to bring the gun into play. I perceive the risk to be great enough to justify the time, money, effort, training, and practice required to become and stay proficient.

That’s a key if you want your unarmed self defense training to pay off you have to make it a part of your lifestyle, it has to be something you practice every day. Not, just some tricks you learned in the Army half your life ago. IMO it has to be as much a part of your nature as indexing your finger when you pick up a firearm.

That’s one of the reasons I keep going back to the fitness issue. I’ve never seen a good fighter who was out of condition. Being in condition makes me better able to fight and better able to defend myself, thus adding another level to my preparedness.

On another level, I’ve also been on the other side of the divide. At my heaviest I weighed 280 pounds. I’m 5 foot 7 and a half and weigh 183 now. Let me tell you from personal experience; fat people are marks. I apologize if that offends anyone but there’s not another way to say it, fat people are targets. People pick them out as an easy hit, once I got back into shape I noticed that people left me alone.

In my experience people that know how to fight project a little different aura and people pick up on it and leave them alone.
 
loosedhorse said:
How much is enough for a fight? Whatever that level is, some folks will never have it. And "enough" is a pretty high goal--how high is up?

Maybe not the way it should be, but the way it is and will be. Our plans have to make room for reality...while understanding that whatever steps toward improvement that can be made should be.
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You can nit pick all day if you want, the bottom line is you put as much time into it as you think the return is worth.
 
I for one would like to know if people who do actually preach about how to be safe have a realistic perspective of threats to one's life.
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Why?

Folks in this forum usually have specific questions or opinions. As in: if you do training already, consider doing some training in weapons retention. Or: should I take a class in unarmed self-defense, or knife fighting/defense?

They're not usually looking for: you should change your life. Become devoted to Krav Maga...or at least Tae Kwon Do. And BTW, lose some weight, you slob! :D

I know a physician who likes to say, "Losing weight is the easiest thing in the world. All you have to do is, change everything. Change your life. Change who you are." And I think he's right (if you don't believe him now, wait a few years, or decades).

Well, whether or not someone here needs to change his life, that's up to him. Most are looking for info, advice, and entertainment...not transformation.
 
I include retention training in all my pistol instruction, even if just to mention it is critical, and if the students don't get it from me, they need to get it somewhere.

Before my recent deployment I gave informal instruction to all of my platoon, and included extensive retention training. I have guys who had been combinations of police and military for 20+ years and had never heard of the idea.
 
Maybe a better standard would to be able to hold a 200 or above for your age group on an APFT?
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No

As a 50+ year old that has spent a considerable amount of time in hard, soft, and internal martial arts I still outperform very fit 20 somethings in free sparring. I don't have their stamina, but I don't have to because I'm more experienced and skilled. It is terribly embarrassing to fit "confident" young men to have a short fat graying office bound guy with crunchy knees dominate them in 3 minute one on ones.

Dependence on fitness, like dependence on a gun, is a mistake.

Like has already been said, Mindset trumps Skillsets trumps Toolset. You just need the "right" mindset and skillset.
 
He'a right..skill,will and toughness are the things to work on.Fitness can be the gateway to toughness-and vice versa...try to balance out your toolbox skills.Without firearms,I default to striking and knifework.Grappling is not an instinctive skillset for me,so that's something to work on.
 
Honestly, I don't know.

I did some Aikido for a month or two, but never really got to a point where I felt I could take on Steven Seagal. I was always one of the "good kids" so I've never been in a fight, and now that I'm smarter than I was back then, I use avoidance.

I'm hoping to get into a Krav Maga or Combat Submission Wrestling class sometime. Heck, even just some one to spar with would probably be an improvement.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
Dependence on fitness, like dependence on a gun, is a mistake.
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Truer words have not been spoken yet.

If you say "I have a gun I don't need to know or be able to defend myself hand to hand." This is a wrong attitude and is not informed. I don't think you need to be able to run a marathon. You do need to know and be able to preform a few defensive moves to free you up to draw your weapon. A move as simple as a quick sidestep and a shove will give you distance and the time needed to draw.

As has been stated a few times. Attacks are not going to be fair fights. They will come from nowhere and will very likely involve you getting hit before you have the chance to draw. Avoid. Don't let people get within your space. Risk assessment? Ok, but it's really hard to tell. I think we can be more protected by avoiding places than people. Stay out of the dark ally rather than cross the street every time someone comes near you.
 
Honestly, I hope to not find out anytime. Sooner or later, don't matter, just "anytime".
I have in the past, and not too distant past. Still the truth is for about four months I dealt with a medical situation and recently had surgery.

But, I come up as I did, and mentored as I was, and spent time in a work...
Always allow Lady Luck into your life, Mindset, Skillsets, then Toolsets, and I may have been mentored to think out of the box, action beats reaction, and cheatin' is...is whut you do.

Twenty years where did they go? -Seger
Twenty?
How about 30?

Avoidance is a big key for me now. I don't do what I once did. I live out in the country and work in a very very small town now. Situational awareness is something I do, as I always have. Currently I have the "luxury" of being "retired" from some things.
Complacency never was an option, and can never be for any of us.

My next "fight" will most likely be in the morning, with all this snow being dumped on me. At my age, I am wondering if I have enough .17HMR ammo to blast away all this snow, instead of having to used the dang shovel.
All for the sake of firearm research ya know...*wink*
 
At 62 my days of rolling around on the ground with someone half my age have long since passed. Never was much of a fighter due to bad eyesight and even worse reflexes. I'm 5'8" and weigh in around 210 lbs and in all honesty have been a physical wreck all my life. When I was required to register for the draft I was classified a couple of points above 4F.
I do the best I can in staying out of areas that will get you thumped on the head,I don't drink so I don't hang in bars. Most of the time when I'm out my wife is with me and she's in a wheelchair so I do try to keep an eye out for any miscreants that are near by. I don't always carry but have been giving thoughts to geting some type of OC spray like the little hand held spray made by Kimber. The other point is living in Ma defending yourself against an attacker will more than likely get you an inditement by a grand jury for hurting that poor misguided soul who tried to mug you.
 
hso said:
No

As a 50+ year old that has spent a considerable amount of time in hard, soft, and internal martial arts I still outperform very fit 20 somethings in free sparring. I don't have their stamina, but I don't have to because I'm more experienced and skilled. It is terribly embarrassing to fit "confident" young men to have a short fat graying office bound guy with crunchy knees dominate them in 3 minute one on ones.

Dependence on fitness, like dependence on a gun, is a mistake.

Like has already been said, Mindset trumps Skillsets trumps Toolset. You just need the "right" mindset and skillset.
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No offense intended but I am assuming that this is against inexperienced fit guys or some form of stand up only(Maybe first touch??) sparring. If you don't have a mild(200apft is mild) fitness level you will not be able to hang with fit opponents of the same or better skill in full contact(MMA, Vale Tudo, even Muay Thai or Western Boxing), that is a fact. The McDojo myth of the Sensei that can fight off fit young guys without breaking a sweat, is just that, a myth.

I am out of shape right now(wedding, honeymoon, christmas, new year, led to a 190lbs slightly chubby me) and I notice a HUGE difference while sparring.
 
What does this mean?


"defend yourself without a firearm"?


The reason I say this is to be careful of your words, keep in mind politics. There is plenty of people that would like to restrict firearm possession in general, or in various locations, and say things like it does not interfere with your right to self defense.
This is untrue because defense against a firearm without a firearm is quite difficult, and many bad guys will still have firearms where they are not supposed to. As will the few who are allowed to have guns in such locations who either lose that firearm to someone else, or go postal themselves (as both LEO and security personnel sometimes do.)



As for self-defense without a firearm being a requirement, that is unfair. It certainly is smart and should be encouraged, but there is a number of people that even trained would not be very good without a firearm, and can still benefit from having one. Take a disabled person, perhaps one that cannot walk, maybe has other injuries, yet can still manage to use a firearm.



Now the less proficient one is at retaining their firearm the more important it is that they keep it unknown that they have a firearm to take.
It is unfortunate that one must often identify themselves as someone that carries a firearm to defend and promote the right, or be silent and see the right dwindle and be lost or heavily restricted.
The same people that should probably not announce to everyone that they have a firearm can often be the people that are best served by a firearm as an equalizer. Being an ideal example of just why firearms are so important for self defense.
We had a great video on here of a guy shooting a gun and reloading with his feet. While this would be dangerously stupid for most people, the guy lacking arms has resulted in him developing extremely good dexterity with his toes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMz2sCDCA4
He certainly could at least take up a defensive position and defend himself.
I have heard of and seen similar cases of people who have lost limbs, or been born without them, learning to use their legs and feet as hands.





So yes the ability to defend yourself without a gun is a very important skill. As is retaining a firearm.
However it should not be viewed as a requirement, but rather an additional useful skill.



One thing you will find with a percentage of strong, healthy, body builders, martial artists, and some fitness nuts is a distaste for an equalizer.
These people that put so much work into being strong, healthy, and capable, like the perceived advantages they have in a physical altercation.
Any 'moron' can just as easily kill them with no skill, experience, wisdom, discipline, etc by using a firearm.
It drops the value of what they have down a few pegs. This causes some of them to despise that guns exist or are available, or be less enthusiastic that other people have them.


However guns exist, they will exist, and a good percentage of violent criminals encountered will be armed with them. This requires someone to also have a gun to defend themselves, even if they are one of the most physically capable.
If you do not have a gun you cannot really effectively and reliably defend yourself as an individual from many of the most common attacks, those made by criminals armed with a gun.


Now one should not rely on a gun as a magic talisman. A gun does not keep someone safe. It is a tool that gives one the means to project pieces of metal.
Mindset along with other skills are more important, and prevent the need to even use a gun most of the time, and leave one in a better position if they do need to use one.
Being good at physical self-defense increases ones odds of success, both with and without a firearm, and is a valuable skill.
 
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same or better skill in full contact
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But you have to realize that you don't have to deal with those folks. Dedication and willingness to work aren't the characteristics of the jackal. Criminals are primarily opportunistic predators who aren't looking for any fight. It puts them at risk of being able to continue their life-style and of maintaining their status in the pack.

It is a mistake to compare dedicated martial artists to punks and criminals who are opportunistic bullies.

You won't face dedicated marital artists when dealing with most criminals.

It is also a mistake for MA practitioners who spend their life in the gym/dojo to assume that they understand how to deal with an ambush style attack or how the'll react. The "rules" are different.

What is important is to practice to the point that your action comes without conscious thought so that you can focus on what instead of how to do while developing the mindset to fight without limitation when forced to. An attack on the street is NOT a 3 minute open sparring session in the dojo. It is a threat to your life without rules or tapout or referees.

Any student of MA should spend some time training with Southnarc and other street defense experts to help them understand the difference so that they can survive. I've made it through 3 violent attacks without being put in the hospital and it is a world of difference from full contact rules fights, but I'm also certain the training, both for mindset and skills, that I had at the time made the difference.

The original question was whether a gun is "enough". The answer resoundingly is that statistics show us that YES is the answer millions of times a year. BUT the facts are that many street attacks occur as ambushes and that there are those instances where time to draw isn't granted to you so you have to use other skills to make the distance to draw or to defend yourself without drawing. There is no one ideal solution to the whole spectrum of self defense problem. Personal experience has taught met that.

BTW, 3 minute sets are not "first touch" whether light or full contact.
 
On top of the Krav Maga I'm learning from my buddy who is an instructor, I've got a little bit of a lot, including Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Muay Thai and a bit of Air Force Combatives.

I'm handy with a stick, too. Or a blade. I just hope it never comes to that.
 
To paraphrase Don Rumsfeld "If I am ever attacked I will have to fight with the body I have at that moment, not the one I had 20 years ago or the one I might have next week".
This battle for life sooner or later always ends the same but I intend to go down fighting.
 
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