HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by marklbucla, Jul 15, 2010.

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  1. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    Will the 00 buck people switch their choices to .223/5.56 if there have been a rash of home invasions involving multiple armed assailants who might be wearing body armor?

    I understand that the shotgun, rifle, and handgun all have their places, but if the bad guys are starting to work in teams I am seriously reconsidering my choice of an 870 and 00 RR buck.
     
  2. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Any full powered rifle should do it. Has there *EVER* been a home invasion with criminals who actually wore armor able to stop such a round? Flak jackets and surplus IIIA are not in that class.
     
  3. wulfhart

    wulfhart Member

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    Simple answer... Both.
    Not a joke. Why not have 2 HD weapons?

    Also in this scenario is their head armored too? Not ideal, but if you had to.
     
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    No. I shoot until the threat stops. If the center of mass shots don't stop, I will complete the failure drill.

    Two questions. Do you REALLY think that a body armor wearing bad guy is that likely?

    Do you REALLY think that anything short of trauma plates will render a shotgun ineffective at close range?

    That's an ounce of lead, and the coverage for a regular vest is far from complete. I just don't see a burglar suiting up telling himself; "Well that guy can shoot all he wants. I'm wearing a VEST. NOTHING can stop me now."

    I own an IBA with plates, I have been training with the IOTV, the more I train, the more conscious I am of how vulnerable I still am.
     
  5. rjrivero

    rjrivero Member

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    You're underestimating the IQ of the home invader. When you think you your plan is foolproof, you'll encounter a bigger fool. ;)
     
  6. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Heres another take on the same question: How would you adapt your current HD gun to meet the threat? Replace buckshot with slugs? Put iron sights, a laser, or a tactical light on your hunting rifle? switch out hollow points for something heavier with more penetration? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
     
  7. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    If I lived in Arizona, I'd say yes. But it seems as though the bad guys are getting more dangerous across the board. First it's smash & grabs, to armed robbery, to home invasions, to home invasion teams, etc. And this is all in the "safe" suburb that I'm planning on moving to shortly. Pairs of armed home invaders is something I should definitely consider, and them wearing some sort of protective gear would probably become more common after the thugs see what they're doing in Arizona.

    ?? No, but I wonder if the presence of any protective wear vs. 00 buck may not stop the fight where a 5.56 may. I've only seen tests where clay was displaced behind a vest, but I'd have to imagine that clay is softer and more pliable than someone's chest.
     
  8. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    rivero, it's not the IQ, it's the level of committment.

    Tell you what, when my local cops tell me of ONE case of bad guys wearing body armor AT ALL, I will reconsider. There is such a thing as imagining problems that don't exist.

    And no, I still wouldn't feel under-armed with a shotgun.
     
  9. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    Doesn't much matter what they're wearing; they're not likely to continue marching onward into a hail of shot, bullets, or slugs. You'd have to have some stuff they know about and seriously want to take, or you'd have to be engaged in a pretty risky lifestyle.
    Intruders wearing BPVs do so to increase the likelihood of surviving armed resistance so they can escape, not so they can continue their pilfering while bullets bounce off them.
     
  10. Tallinar

    Tallinar Member

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    Is the OP planning on provoking a SWAT team to come beseige his house or something?
     
  11. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    'Shortish' M1897 Winchester 12 Gauge, and the heaviest Rifled Slugs it will oblige.


    Kinda takes the wind outta them even if wearing regular kinds of 'vests'...
     
  12. AOK

    AOK Member

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    My choice is going to be whatever I can get to ASAP. I don't know where I'm going to be if I ever have a home invasion. All I know is I always have my Glock 23 on my hip. If I'm able to get to my shotgun or rifle then great, but who knows if I'll actually have a choice in the first place.
     
  13. black_powder_Rob

    black_powder_Rob Member

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    http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/11/05/body-armor-wearing-home-invader-shot-in-self-defense-by-armed-resident/


    worked for the home owners in this one.:) for the nay sayers google home invasion body armor
     
  14. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    I thought this was a strange response, considering that this is the more tactical corner of a gun board. Unless things have changed lately, you usually don't see too many posts stinking of the same arguments for gun control.

    I don't think that this is a ridiculous question anymore considering that it's already happening in AZ, among other places. Team armed home invasions have been in the news in the nice suburb I'm moving to. If armed home invasions are becoming more common place and if it's been all over the media that good people are more armed than ever, a rational criminal would adjust his gear accordingly to include at least a cheap form of protection. It would only be wise to take this into consideration when re-evaluating one's own HD choices.

    Asking whether or not 00 buck has enough penetration is hardly a mall ninja-esque question. If the Box of Truth is accurate, maybe it doesn't for tomorrow's evolving criminal.
     
  15. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    I'm curious how weapon choice is going to make a bit of difference if bad guys start working in teams. How exactly does switching to a rifle prevent you from being flanked? I would say the working in teams aspect is far more dangerous than the body armor aspect. I would certainly rather go up against assailants wearing body armor who lacked tactics than an unarmored team who knew even the most rudimentary maneuvers for defeating a barricaded opponent. Luckily, neither scenario is likely to manifest itself in my life anytime soon.
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Nope. Still a naysayer.

    A great many things COULD happen. I don't presume to know ALL of them. But just because it's POSSIBLE a guy could steal a tank from a local armory and start causing mayhem, and it has in fact happened in the past, doesn't mean it is likely to happen AGAIN, or that I should buy some AT-4s to keep in the truck just in case.

    AGAIN, in the rare instance that my home is invaded by people wearing body armor, I will do.......exactly what I would do anyway. Shoot center of mass. If that fails to stop, I move to the head. NOTHING CHANGES.

    I will go a step further, and suggest that in the vast majority of 'home invasions' where multiple assailants are wearing body armor, it isn't random crime. It's known associates.
     
  17. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    Reloading an 870 is a tad slower than reloading a semi automatic carbine. It also has a bit more recoil, making follow up shots slower. If there are more bad guys, both shortcomings may have a practical difference between life and death.

    The second question goes well beyond my knowledge. However, the carbine's increased ammunition capacity of a box fed magazine and lighter recoil would have to provide some non-negative benefit over a shotgun. At worst, they would be equal in this regard.
     
  18. VillageIdjit

    VillageIdjit Member

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    Grumpy old fart here will continue to depend on an old Mossberg 500 with 8 rounds of #0 buck for any home defense situations that might occur. Bar none.

    8 shots in one second flat with minute of pie plate accuracy - no brag, plain fact.
     
  19. jbkebert

    jbkebert Member

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    http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/ballistics_charts.pdf

    According to Hornady ballistics charts link above. A 12ga 00buck produces 2400 ft/lb energy at muzzle and 2100 at 10 yards. So in my way of thinking even wearing body armor being hit in the chest with 2400 ft/lb of force the vest does not absorb shock mind you. I don't think your going to go dancing that night. If it does not kill the BG with just shear force the dude ain't getting up and certainly is not going to continue coming after you. Although we don't seem to have the uber thugs in Kansas that can't be stopped by mere pistol rounds. Oh and by the way the energies listed above are more than a .500 S&W or a 30/30 win. A .44 magnum hits at about 960 ft/lb. So long story short I think your just fine.

    I did see some crap at a gun show by a company called blammo ammo (boy the name just screams confidence} that was claimed to be armor percing 12ga slugs.
     
  20. DFW1911

    DFW1911 Member

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    Makes sense to me.

    One thing we so frequently overlook: mindset.

    A group of people storming your house to steal Rockwell Norman posters and Grandma's faux pearls is relying on your compliance - not your resistance - for a successful mission. I've taken some liberties, but you get the idea (re: HD): you don't set a "fair" gunfight, you set an ambush with the odds in your favor, so to speak.

    We see the same thing in the LEO dynamic entry design (and I know I'll catch h*** for this). A group of "dug in," responsive, and well-armed bad guy(s) has what, a 6:1 advantage over an entry team? That was the ratio when we (Navy) were training local LEO SWAT 20+ odd years ago, so it may have changed. I don't know. That's not my line of work anymore.

    The point remains: the defender (using cover / concealment) has the distinct advantage. This is why clearing a house alone is such a tremendously awful idea.

    You don't need a mini-gun to repel multiple borders. You need a plan, training, practice, and the tools necessary to make sure you end up on the right side of the panic and dictate results to the best of your ability.

    Just my $.02.

    YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  21. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    +1

    This is such an unlikely scenario for those of us who aren't involved in criminal enterprises, that I think it actually compares reasonably well to the "what to do if someone drives a tank towards you" (which, incidentally, has happened to folks in CO and CA in recent history).

    In the unlikely event that any of this took place, I'd also be more worried about the logistics of handling multiple assailants who are "working as a team" than I would be about handling the same folks with body armor. Vests only protect a limited area of the body, and slugs will likely disable a person wearing soft body armor, as will any common rifle caliber.
     
  22. JoeSlomo

    JoeSlomo Member

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    My HD primary IS 5.56 in the form of a bushie M4 wannabe.

    Been using the CAR / M4 professionally for 20 years, and after a stint in hurricane ridden Florida and seeing how normally civil folk can tend to lose their minds in a disaster, I figured an upgrade from the ol' 870 was in order.

    Be it one lone schmuck, or a squad sized element, a rifle with a 30 round mag, and the will to use it, can be quite discouraging to any would be miscreants who invade ones home. Armored or not...
     
  23. jbkebert

    jbkebert Member

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    I have what maybe a stupid question. For those of you that have children in the house. How does your house lay out. A large number of homes the master bedroom is across the house from the other bedrooms. This is done for the parents and the kids for that matter get some privacy. Now if the kids are on the other end of the house and you come rushing out with a centerfire rifle or 12 ga with slugs. How do you make a clear shot. I am not saying do not protect your house by any means. I just wonder is a battle rifle with a 30 round mag or a 12ga loaded with 8 slugs is a wise idea.
     
  24. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    You are correct to be concerned. However, it doesn't make a lot of sense to use a less effective round because you are worried about 'overpenetration'. All rounds that are effective for self-defense or home-defense are likely to overpenetrate, and you won't get hits with all of them anyway.

    There is no easy answer. You need to put some effort into the layout of your home and your plan of action to make your most likely lanes of fire are not towards where your innocent family members are likely to be. You need to train your kids to get on the floor and stay there if there is ever any violence in the house. One day, I will build Fort Deckard out in the desert, and in addition to a clay pigeon thrower on the back deck, it will be built with solid walls, heavy doors, and in a layout that affords myself and Mrs. Deckard a reasonable degree of privacy from the little Deckards, but at the same time doesn't put likely entryways to the home between me and the kids.

    Until I can do this, the plan won't be perfect. You must use Rule #4 at all times in all situations.
     
  25. uspJ

    uspJ Member

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    Body armor or not I would keep the shotgun. Shoot center mass, if they do not stop shoot the pelvis. Most body armor stops at the waist, if you shoot the pelvis/hip area your attacker will no longer be mobile, also there are a lot of arteries in this area any would cause significant damage to any attacker.

    If I were truly worried about armored home invaders I may swap the 870 for a Saiga 12 gauge for the higher capacity and semi-auto action.
     
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