1. Bikerdoc's passing and how you can help

    As many of you know, bikerdoc- AKA Al Spiniello- is no longer with us. There are always extra expenses when someone passes. If you would like to contribute to support his family, please do so here: Bikerdoc GoFundMe page.

    (Note - this notice can be dismissed by clicking on the X in the upper right corner.)
    Dismiss Notice

HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by marklbucla, Jul 15, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rexster

    Rexster Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,922
    Location:
    SE Texas
    I work big-city police patrol, night shift, and my chief lets me carry a personally-owned Remington 870 in the passenger compartment of the patrol car, if I want, and deploy it at my discretion. I can keep an AR15 cased in the trunk, and deploy it under specified circumstances. I don't think I am going to leave a perfectly good shotgun sitting there while I run the thousand miles to the trunk to retrieve the rifle, so realistically, if I use a long gun to fight home invaders, it will be the shotgun. (This is home invaders going after others' homes.) I keep my shotguns loaded with 00 buck, with the option of slugs. Of course, if I arrive after a stand-off has begun, and I have the luxury of time, the rifle is then a realistic option.

    My plan for armored adversaries? Well, my two primary shotguns have Vang-comped barrels, which throw tighter patterns than normal, and I practice head, neck, shoulder, and thigh shots. I have nothing against rifles, and a carbine-length .223 rifle is a great home defense weapon; I am just saying that I don't feel less comforted by having a shotgun for a close-range fight.

    I will not count on anything to BREAK a pelvis. I think the pelvic shot theory has been debunked enough, without getting into a long discussion about it in this thread, and hip-length body armor exists. The hip joint area itself is certainly a legit target, if it presents itself, but I don't count on an amped-up bad guy to stop shooting just because his hip joint has acquired an owie, causing him to fall.

    As for defending my own home, well, let's just say I would follow my employer's rules, of course. ;)
     
  2. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    11,166
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    But it isn't a flashbang, otherwise it would be debilitating to the shooter as well. Even fired from a 10" barrel, the flash from shotgun rounds isn't anything like that of a flashbang, nor is the sound (which for a shotgun is only about 140-155 db)

    The M84 produces 170–180 dB and 6–8 million Candela within a 5-foot (1.5 m) radius.
     
  3. SonOfRoost

    SonOfRoost Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I'd say use whatever makes you more comfortable. A lot about succeding in any combat situatuion is state of mind, if you feel comfortable and in control, you'll do better. So, in short, use whatever makes you feel better.
    P.S. I have shot a crotch plate of body armor with a 12 Ga. and not one BB went through the soft plate, just for the record.
     
  4. chagasrod

    chagasrod Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Location:
    Lynnwood, WA
    Easy to say you can fire 8 rounds of 12GA in one second using a pump;
    i'd like to see that happening. Somethings simply CANNOT be done.
     
  5. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    Hmm...

    Just me mind you, still I would try to access me and my settings, as to why I might be a target in the first place.
    Then I would take prudent steps, to not look like prey, and to make it more difficult to have a home invasion.

    Keep in mind, I was raised into something hi-risk, so I do understand something about all this.

    Keep in mind, failure to stop drills.
    It does not matter what make ,model , calibre, or ammo, or even if the bad guys have armor, one shoots to stop a threat.

    I guess I should say - one does what they must, to stop a threat, as not everything defaults to gun.

    Nobody says you have to shoot COM, the head is a difficult target, especially when moving. In other words, go for neck, head, legs, pelvis, or knees (one of my first choices).
     
  6. strambo

    strambo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,961
    Location:
    Oregon
    This is why you have to "war-game" this ahead of time. Know your fields of fire, where you need to position yourself so you can engage the enemy w/out endangering your family.

    My house has all rooms upstairs. Master at one end of hall, 2 kids rooms on same (left) side of hall. From a position at the corner of my bed, I can shoot at the doorway and about a foot left w/out the field of fire getting into w/in a couple meters of where the bed is at the far bedroom. Plus, there will be a upward angle taking the rounds into the ceiling prior. If he gets through the door (and moves forward or to my left), I have to move left and engage.

    If I have the couple seconds to get a point of domination at the top of the stairs, my FoF is unrestricted in that direction. The downward rounds won't even make it into the massive backyard of the neighbors house, to say nothing of anywhere else inside my own where someone could be.
     
  7. ChCx2744

    ChCx2744 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,228
    Regardless of what kind of body armor they are wearing, I guarantee the goblin(s) will FEEL my 3" magnum rifled 12 ga slugs plowing into their COM; that is, if I hit the torso...If it hits the melon...Well...Let's just say they'll be taking an extended vacation to a very hot place. :)

    Back on topic, I guess grabbing the good ol' AR to butter down the goon squad might not be such a bad idea either...But that will also present a problem, because in a situation like this, you're not really going to know if the BG(s) are going to be wearing armor or not...Honestly, I don't trust my own night sight/low light vision of my eyes to recognize if a guy is wearing armor or not...I'm just going to see a threat, react accordingly for a home invasion, and the first thing I grab for such a scenario is gonna be Mr. Remmy Boomstick Loudenboomer.
     
  8. jbkebert

    jbkebert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,599
    Location:
    Kansas
    i understand the need to think through your individual needs and plan for the unthinkable. The below floor plan while small is a pretty typical layout of a midwestern home. Not all by any means but a ranch style house is very popular. Wether larger or smaller if you come out of the master bedroom left side of home towards rear. BG is most likley going to enter through front or back door. So by the time you get out you have a pretty clear shot at front door. If the BG is inside your feilds of fire are greatly reduced. Granted I am all about defending my home. i have shot sheet rock made mock walls and did some random testing of diffrent rounds, calibers. Beleive it or not I shot a arrow from my hunting bow equiped with a broad head. Shot taken at high chest to mid neck of typical adult height. Arrow went through a mock wall 2x4 with 1/2" sheetrock made it 5 feet and penatrate through a third sheet and stuck into the fourth sheet on second mock wall. There is no perfect answer or perfect scenerio I just want people to think and prepare accordingly.

    fl1.gif
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2010
  9. SonOfRoost

    SonOfRoost Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Minnesota
    It's decisively true that if you hit them with any home defense weapon, no matter what they're wearing, they'll feel it. However you should never shoot unless you intend to kill, and if they came in with body armor, they expected a fight. In addition it's perfectly safe to assume that anyone with the funds to buy body armor can afford a firearm (even illegally), so they would probably be shooting at you as well. So don't shoot to wound, when there's a criminal with that kind of rescources in your home, don't wound him and then get shot, you have to incapacitate him to ensure your own safety. So an armor piercing gun would probably be a prudent move. If I remember correctly it is legal to purchase armor piercing rounds for a rifle too, witch would ensure that it worked.
     
  10. hardworker

    hardworker Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    301
    If they came in wearing body armor they wanted more than to just steal your TV which means you're probably out of luck unless you've got an RPD leaned up against the wall.
     
  11. valorius

    valorius member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    638
    Location:
    South of Heaven
    Why not just keep one of both on hand?

    That's what i do.

    eab3b8c7.jpg
    I can pretty much handle anything from an armored home invasion squad to a herd of zombies, to a runaway circus elephant, to a pack of velociraptor's with the tools i have readily on hand.

    5.56mm Mk262 Mod1 77gr OTM in my sweetened up Bushmaster, and 12 pellet 00B 2 3/4" full power magnum rounds in the Beretta 12 gauge. 6 rounds of solid copper 3" Barnes .50 sabot slugs also ride in the stock's shell carrier.

    Reality strongly suggests that the odds of running into a pack of body armor equipped home invaders is somewhat less than running into the pack of velociraptors, but whatever the problem, i should have it covered...if you look closely you can see my body armor hanging on the wall. Class IIIA/IV wrap around with a Class II/IV groin flap.

    (The swords are only in the pic for a "beauty shot," lol)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2010
  12. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    9,425
    Location:
    Down East in NC
    AP ammunition for handguns, and for rifle calibers classified as "handgun calibers" by the BATFE (7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm/.223, I think 7.62x51mm/.308) is restricted by Federal law. There are NO civilian-available handguns that will penetrate IIIA with civilian ammunition, except for specialized hunting handguns like the Thompson-Center Contender, Remington XP100, or perhaps the S&W X-frame in the .460 chambering (and even that would probably not penetrate IIIA, but I'm guessing here).

    If you are speaking of typical NIJ Level II or IIIA body armor, pretty much any centerfire rifle with any ammunition (softpoint, JHP, FMJ) will penetrate, even a model 1894 .30-30. If you're speaking of NIJ Level III hard armor, not much below .30-06 Springfield or .300 Winchester Magnum will reliably penetrate that, and a Garand loaded with M2 isn't the most practical home-defensive gun due to length and weight, never mind overpenetration issues. If you're talking NIJ Level IV, there is AFAIK no practical, civilian-available HD gun that will penetrate without multiple shots in the same place.

    All criminals-with-body-armor incidents that I'm familiar with involve criminals wearing NIJ II or IIIA, meaning any rifle with any ammo would suffice for HD in that (unlikely) scenario. If your hypothetical assailants have the resources and training to be using NIJ Level IV, "which gun" is the wrong question.
     
  13. uspJ

    uspJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2009
    Messages:
    603
    Location:
    Georgia
    Great point! Most home invasions are not random, most of the time they are looking for large amounts of cash, jewlery or drugs. Living in an extravagant house in a well-to-do neighborhood could put you in the sights of potential home invaders.

    If I were in your situation I would be looking at exit strategies just as much, if not more than strategies to engage the home invaders. If your home is invaded especially by multiple assailants your tactical advantage just took a drastic nosedive, I would do all I could to escape and only use force if they blocked my path of escape. There is nothing in your home besides loved ones that is worth dying over. Have a plan to get you and yours out and to safety in a hurry.
     
  14. SonOfRoost

    SonOfRoost Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    Minnesota
    All I was saying with the AP rounds was that I thought (that's a THOUGHT) that you could purchase them for RIFLES, I know they're restricted for handguns though.
     
  15. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    One has to understand, and accept the fact there are various models of criminals.

    Criminals have the advantage, of being on the offensive, whereby the target/prey is on the defensive.

    I personally concern myself with entering and exiting a structure (abode, business, vehicle, [ any conveyance], and answering the door.

    This applies to employees of businesses as well. The most vulnerable time is when employees are getting the workplace set-up, and when they are closing-down the business.

    Especially if the business has the door locked, before opening and closing hours, to the public.
    Be this retail, wholesale, manufacture, service or distributor, or combination thereof.
    These are the times, one is most vulnerable.

    Yes this thread is about Home Defense, it should include "Work" Defense.


    Re: Entering.
    Often times a model of criminal, will allow one to enter a structure, then plan on taking the target(s), upon exiting; and there are reasons for doing so.
    Most obvious, is get his/her game plan in order, and his assistants in place, to take you down when you exit.

    Another for instance is letting one family member in/employee in, and watching for alarms to be turned off.
    Now all the criminal(s) have to do, is have another family member/employee at gun point, and force themselves into home/business.

    Re: Exiting, works in reverse if you will.

    Do you let a pet out to take care of business? If you are in a rural area, do you tend to livestock, and /or garden. Etc.

    You have to keep in mind, some of these criminals, "work all day" at being criminals.
    Strategy, tactics, and training, everyday, all day. Not to mention what they have learned in "cell college".
    And don't think they do not use computers and Internet to read gun forums.
    They do.

    The most effective body armor, is having a human being as a shield.

    What are you going to do, if the criminal has your child or wife, with a knife, or gun to their person?

    This includes the criminal having your child, or wife, with a gun or knife to their person, in another location.

    You get a phone call at home/work, and your child/wife, was taken at the park, out shopping, running errands, and...buying gas. Buying gas is such a vulnerable everyday activity.

    Tip: Me and mine did not/do not use gas stations.
    I know for a fact, some THR members that have been practicing this defensive strategy for some time, and continue to.

    Tip: Full service car washes.
    Most states require registration and insurance, be kept in the glove box.
    It is common for folks to have home/business keys on the same key ring as vehicle key.
    Nor is it uncommon for the Car Washes to have key making services.

    So while your vehicle is being cleaned, vacuumed, and whatever else, while you read a magazine in the lobby- the criminal, has made a set of keys, and has your address.

    Now the criminals can now formulate strategy and tactics, upon which to do evil to you and yours.

    It might be multiple assailants coming to see your wife, on her day off, after she drops the kid(s) off at school, and she has planned to work around the house.


    Shoot holes in your own preparations, and defensive plans, before you start trying to figure out to shoot through or around body armor.
     
  16. NMGonzo

    NMGonzo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,691
    Location:
    Albuquerque & Santa Fe
    30 rounds of 5.56 on the rifle next to my bed.

    The threat will stop.
     
  17. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    7,033
    Location:
    Johnson County Texas
    I keep the 870 loading with 00 and slugs. A 500 grain Hollow point Slug center mass will ruin your day BA or not.
     
  18. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    13,080
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    Since when is being on the defensive in your own home a disadvantage? HE has to move. HE has to enter unfamiliar territory. HE has to guess where the armed people in the house are. HE doesn't know where the floor creaks. HE has to guess whether or not he is going to act with deadly force. I DON'T.
     
  19. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    9,425
    Location:
    Down East in NC
    For the purposes of the law, 7.62x39mm, .223/5.56x45mm, and IIRC .308x51mm/.308 Winchester are considered "handgun" calibers, because of AR/AK pistols and whatnot chambered for them. Hence the 1986 AP handgun ammo ban, as amended in 1994, covers those calibers per an administrative decision by the BATFE, as I understand it.

    AP ammo for rifle calibers above 7.62x51mm/.308 appears to be unrestricted, but it doesn't really matter. Any centerfire rifle shooting ordinary softpoints will shoot through NIJ IIIA Kevlar (which covers almost all criminal-use scenarios) like Saran Wrap, and no practical home-defense rifles will penetrate NIJ Level IV ceramic armor even with AP. The only gray area at all is with NIJ Level III hard armor (which .30-06 AP out of a full length barrel will penetrate at close range, but .223/7.62x39mm/.308 non-AP generally won't, with occasional exceptions), and there are few practical HD rifles in .30-06.

    Basically, any centerfire rifle with any ammunition covers most criminals-with-body-armor-home-invasion scenarios (however rare they may be) since the most common armor in criminal hands is II or IIIA Kevlar, not III or IV hard armor.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  20. ChCx2744

    ChCx2744 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,228
    We must remember to stress the fact that you will not be able to initially and/or immediately identify if the BG is wearing armor or not! If someone has entered my dwelling unlawfully, my first thoughts will not be "I wonder if he's wearing a vest?" I guarantee that.

    Also, I don't doubt the fact that criminals are using armor. Even so, I believe that a very small percentage of your average repeat offenders/violent criminals are going to be wearing armor, but even if they are, rifles and shotguns are very high powered guns. Repeated hits in the same area are going to do some damage. You can argue all you want on all this new space-age technology that you saw on TV, but that doesn't necessarily mean the goblins have their hands on them either. Just maintain your bearings, stay on target and repeat until they drop. I am fairly confident in the power of the rifle and shotgun, even against body armor.

    From what I remember, repeated hits from .223 will damage and go through up to level III and IIIA armor. I keep the AR ready to go next to my bed :)
     
  21. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    793
    +1 For having one of each.

    Most of us do anyway, just don't consider them HD.

    Shotgun primary, if it doesn't stop em...grab the AK. Sure, be prepared, but the likelihood of overpenetration from a rifle round is higher than the likelihood of an armored invader.

    Short version: doesn't hurt to be prepared.
     
  22. omegaflame

    omegaflame Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2010
    Messages:
    186
    Maybe a 1911 460 rowland conversion. I seriously doubt III-A could stop that.
     
  23. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    Quincy, FL
    FWIW, IIIA soft armor will NOT stop or even slow down .223/5.56 OR 7.62x39 rounds.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

    There are more articles on body armor at Box o' Truth, but that one shows what happens to the body wearing the armor when shot with an AR or AK (or similar rifle chambered for the round)

    It's towards the end of the article. Some of the pictures will really make you think.
     
  24. oldbanjo

    oldbanjo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    SC
    I don't care if someone has armor it's hard to walk through a wall of lead from a mossberg 500 w/3"mag 00 buck. My first two rounds are #1 buck. My third or forth shot would be at his feet. If the BG can see to walk then some of this shot will get into meat.
     
  25. Full Metal Jacket

    Full Metal Jacket member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    2,398
    Location:
    hiding in your bushes
    interesting question. i've only really been contemplating a single intruder scenario.

    for multiple ones, hmmmm.......high cap sounds like the way to go. i have my glock 19 with the 33 round mag loaded with ranger +P+ jhp's. that should be sufficient :D
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice