help me get my AR facts straight...

[kerank]

Ok, I'm a newbie to the AR platform. For some strange reason I want one. Never thought I'd want one, but here I am doing my Internet research.

I want it for fun plinking, but would like it to be respectable punching paper at 100 yards (2.5 MOA or better with low/mid priced ammo). I also, don't want to go the cheapest route and chance getting a lemon. I assume DI guns are the sweet spot right now, since everyone is clamoring for gas-piston lately.

So, I'm looking for a pre-built rifle from a quality company that gives me a good chance to get a "good one" (good QC). I'd love to stay around 1,000, but could stretch up to 1,600 if better options force me to. I don't really want to spend more on a rifle with a bunch of accessories that I don't even know if I like yet. Accessories can come later...just want a good, solid, reliable base platform to start with.

From what I can tell Noveske, Colt, LMT, Sabre? are the top tier. Assuming there is a mid-tier and a lower-tier...who are the companies in the mid-tier? Am I correct in my assumptions of the top tier?

I would like to have a 16" barrel, but don't understand the difference in carbine length gas system vs. mid-length gas system...what advantage does mid-length have?

Seems like most of the mid to lower priced ammo is 55 - 62 gr. Does a 1 in 9 twist barrel have an advantage over 1 in 7 for the lighter stuff?

Sorry...so many questions and an overwhelming amount of information.

 

[W.E.G.]

There are a million different opinions on "which one is best."

I'll keep the answer simple.

Get a Colt 6920 (or 6940 for an extra $200 if you like the monolithic rail).

You will sleep very well.

 

[shadowalker]

LMT, Daniel Defense, BCM and Colt are all great options and equal quality. The first three will save you a little money. Noveske and Sabre are very good choices too and I doubt you can go wrong with any of them.

Second tier consider S&W M&P and Stag, they both build good rifles but tend to do 1:9 twist and Stag needs the BCG gas key staked properly.

The Carbine gas system is much shorter than the original rifle gas system and is harder on parts, especially bolts. The mid length gas system is a compromise and lowers the pressure quite a bit.

For a new 16" gun there is no reason not to go mid length, you'll get slightly less recoil, longer part life and longer hand-guards while keeping the same barrel length.

I suggest reading the sticky knowledge base threads on m4carbine.net. You'll be a much better informed buyer and there is too much knowledge in them to summarize here.

 

[C-grunt]

You can get a Colt 6920 or LMT base model AR for 1200 bucks. Both of those are considered "top tier" rifles and are excellent choices.

1 in 7 should stabilize 55 grn rounds well and will stabilize heavier rounds better than the 1 in 9. But in reality the 1 in 9 is ok.

 

[tkcomer]

When it comes to the AR world, only two companies build complete rifles. Colt and Olympic Arms. Everybody else buys some of their parts from someone else. That said, the big decision is whether you want to run optics or not. If you plan to scope it, I'd recommend the flat top upper with no front sight. Just a gas block. You can find the Olympic Arms version for under 700 bucks and other companies make them also. You can add sights if you want, but most people that do end up leaving the sights in a drawer after the optics go on. You see a lot of them for sale as they never take the optic off.

You don't need a piston upper. They do add reliability, at the expense of weight and complexity. And if they were the “answer” to an AR problem, I'd think the militaries around the world would be switching to them. But they don't. The vast majority of people that buy an AR, that is a big expense for something they don't need. I have 3 AR-15s and a legal M-16. Never needed a piston upper. Good ammo and magazines are the key to a reliable AR. Just my opinion.

 

[halfded]

Take a look at CMMG's bargain bin rifles. I promote Del-ton every chance I get too. For the money, they offer a pretty nice rifle.

Don't fall for name brands, they mean almost nothing other than more money nowadays. My Taurus has a better trigger than most S&W's I've shot, my H&R Pardner pump (870 knockoff) has never hiccuped while I watched my BIL's new Remmy 870 lock the action after every shot, even after a trip back to the factory and a new barrel. Put a Bill Springfield trigger in my Del-ton kit rifle and it's steady teaching me to be a better shooter.

Point being, do independent research from EXPERIENCED sources, then spend your money wisely. More money won't always get ya more gun, I don't care what anyone says.

 

[Al LaVodka]

Seems like most of the mid to lower priced ammo is 55 - 62 gr. Does a 1 in 9 twist barrel have an advantage over 1 in 7 for the lighter stuff?
QUOTE]
Yes.
Al

 

[MrCleanOK]

When it comes to the AR world, only two companies build complete rifles. Colt and Olympic Arms. Everybody else buys some of their parts from someone else. That said, the big decision is whether you want to run optics or not.

Are you suggesting that the only two brands that should be considered are Colt and Olympic, because other manufacturers source parts? If you are, that is some of the most flawed logic I have ever heard. I suppose we shouldn't drive cars because ALL auto manufacturers source parts, or we shouldn't live in houses because NO contractors are milling their own lumber these days.

Colt makes a very nice rifle, but you can get into the same quality ballpark with better money. Olympic is a holding down the bottom of the quality spectrum. There are many, many other fish in the sea.

 

[ol' scratch]

Check out Rock River

They make nice AR's. I have a mid length and it has been great. It shoots better than your requirements and I have done nothing to it. I easily shoot 1.5" on a bad day. On a good day when I do my part, and feed it ammo it likes, it shoots 1.0 to sub MOA. Also, I am suprised no one has mentioned Armalite. I have an Armalite upper that has been very good.

Don't fall into the name worship with AR-15's. There are lots of nice rifles in various configurations.

Have you ever thought of building a rifle? I know you wanted one complete from the box, but they are easy to build. The lower requires no special tools. I have built two lowers. They are easy and fun. You can purchase any upper you want from there.

 

[tkcomer]

Oh no. Just stating that only two companies build/manufacture complete rifles. A lot of people don't know that the other companies buy a lot of their parts from other manufacturers. Olympic supplies a lot of those companies with those parts. As for me, I build my own from parts I select. But way too many newbies get caught up in the latest do-dads that will do them no good. And cost a lot. A high dollar looker from a high end builder will shoot good. But the vast majority of AR buyers aren't into competition. They just wanna have fun. A basic AR that fits their needs will be much less costly. Now if money is no object....

 

[shadowalker]

When it comes to the AR world, only two companies build complete rifles. Colt and Olympic Arms. Everybody else buys some of their parts from someone else.

Colt sources parts too and I'd be very surprised if Oly didn't. The difference between the companies is whether or not the company requires the parts be made to TDP. Top tier companies do, lower tier companies don't.

When someone says "builds a complete" rifle most people mean a complete upper and lower assembled and sold together.

 

[tkcomer]

I have “heard” that Colt is going to outside suppliers for some of their parts. Haven't heard that about Olympic. The guy wants a fun gun to use with low cost ammo. Now, that might be another topic as a lot of low cost ammo isn't that accurate. And most low cost ammo is in the under 69gr bullet weight. In which case, the 1/9 barrel that most offer will do just fine. The only suggestion I made was to get a gun with flat top upper and no front sight. Everyone “told” me a front sight would not interfere with a scope. But I didn't like the shadow I kept seeing in the scope I was using. Being a cheapie, I cut the post down. And that was with a 4200 8X32 Bushnell. I don't cheap out on scopes.

 

[X-Rap]

The OP didn't state if he wanted carb. or rifle. Sighting configuration, stock, grip and forearm. Not even starting on the internals. I think he really needs to read up on past threads and hit a few gun shops as well as the websites of some manufacturers.
If he has his own list of options I bet some of the brain trust here can help him sort out the best of what he wants.

 

[MCEOD]

IMO, there are very few rifles in that price range that will disappoint you. I put most of mine together myself, and was about the stay under about $800 with the first upper I had on it. I shot the crap out of it until I figured out what I really wanted. I've long since lost track of how much I've dropped into her, but for now, she's perfect.

 

[shadowalker]

Take a look at gun shops, be very careful what information you take from them though.

 

[SpeedAKL]

For what you are looking for, you can get a pretty solid deal with $1,000 in hand. For $1,500 you can get basically anything you want in the AR world outside of a few Noveske or Sabre models or a few other high-end manufacturers.

The carbine-length gas system is the standard system used on the M4 as well as previous carbines like the XM177. It typically works fine with a quality rifle. However, the shorter traveling distance means faster cycling and higher pressures exerted on componentry. The midlength gas system was developed to provide smoother cycling and lower pressures while still being able to utilize a 16-inch barrel. A middie is very nice if you can get your hands on one. Try to order a BCM midlength upper and a decent lower; you'll be good to go!

 

[TexasRifleman]

My AR statement that angers brand name fanboys:

"99% of ARs on the market are perfectly fine for 99% of the shooters out there. And, if you happen to be one of the 1% you already know it and don't ask the question".

So, find one that looks cool to you at a price you like, and enjoy it. Not worth stressing over

 

[kamagong]

Take a look at CMMG's bargain bin rifles. I promote Del-ton every chance I get too. For the money, they offer a pretty nice rifle.

Don't fall for name brands, they mean almost nothing other than more money nowadays. My Taurus has a better trigger than most S&W's I've shot, my H&R Pardner pump (870 knockoff) has never hiccuped while I watched my BIL's new Remmy 870 lock the action after every shot, even after a trip back to the factory and a new barrel. Put a Bill Springfield trigger in my Del-ton kit rifle and it's steady teaching me to be a better shooter.

Point being, do independent research from EXPERIENCED sources, then spend your money wisely. More money won't always get ya more gun, I don't care what anyone says.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement. The "name brands" as you call them got their names for a reason, because they put out a good product and stand behind them. Does that mean that if you buy a Colt, LMT, or Noveske that you'll be getting a perfect gun? Of course not, every manufacturer puts out a lemon once in a while, but some do it much more often than others.

The OP is wise for wanting to buy quality. The difference between a low quality AR and a good quality one is what, 200 dollars? That barely buys you 1000 rounds of ammo nowadays. Another $200 will get you a top tier gun from Colt or BCM. As you can see, the initial purchase price is a small cost in the ownership of a gun if you shoot with any regularity. It doesn't make any sense to go cheap when you'll quickly spend more money on ammo, so go with your gut and buy the best quality you can afford.

 

[jogar80]

My AR statement that angers brand name fanboys:

"99% of ARs on the market are perfectly fine for 99% of the shooters out there. And, if you happen to be one of the 1% you already know it and don't ask the question".

So, find one that looks cool to you at a price you like, and enjoy it. Not worth stressing over

So true.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Bushmasters a great for the money, Colts are fantastic rifles if you want to spend a bit more.

If you want a reasonable priced piston AR go for the Ruger556.

Unless you plan on doing ops with the Seals or SAS than any of them are fine.

 

[taliv]

"99% of ARs on the market are perfectly fine for 99% of the shooters out there. And, if you happen to be one of the 1% you already know it and don't ask the question".

which is a lot like saying 99% of cars on the market are perfectly fine for 99% of drivers out there.

which is NOT the same as saying, car x is a good deal. or that a corolla == a prius
and may leave the buyer thinking "well, yeah, i can haul trash in my minivan, but i really wish i'd bought that trunk instead"

 

[Art Eatman]

Looking at the OP: Are there any 16" ARs out there which are UNLIKELY to be capable of 2.5 MOA or better?

If not, it seems to me that he can pretty much go by price.

Or, another angle: Are there any brands which seem to have more parts breakage or rapid wear than others?

 

[GPWASR10]

I like DPMS, seem to be more accurate rifles in my experience and also have great CS. I also like the Black Teflon finish of the guns. If accuracy is one of your main concerns, I think you have a better chance of getting a especially accurate rifle with a DPMS. BM, if a chrome bore is a main factor in your purchase.

DPMS has great online CS support and can answer any questions about their rifles in real time.

But all AR"s are pretty accurate platforms.

They are all pretty reliable guns.

 

[tju1973]

You can view "the chart", but balance what you want, with what you can afford. I would opt for a mid length or full length gas tube rifle-- just for personal prefernce and lower operating pressures.

Brand though-- depends-- I got the CMMG Bargain Bin and I would put it reliability with any for normal shooting. I dont plan on going into combat with it, and I hope the only blood it spill is 'yotes, hogs, and other varmints... But at under $700 delivered with transfer (About $658 all together) it seems like the best value out there....If money is no object, I would go for a COlt, Noveske, BCm whatever, but I tend to be value minded with kids, bills, and life taking 99% of my cash..To each his own though!

 

[GPWASR10]

Yeah, those CMMG rifles are a good deal right now... Might wanna look into those. The S&W rifles are also at a low price for what you are getting.