Help me get set up for bullet casting

[JimGnitecki]

I cannot find a good source here in Canada for 500g .459" 45-70 bullets for my Pedersoli Sharps replica, so I bought and read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and made a list of what I THINK I need to make those bullets myself.

Here is my tentative list, with relevant outstanding questions that I hope some of you can provide guidance on:

Lyman MAG 25 Digital Melting Furnace (A very good price available at a Canadian dealer, so this is now on order). I considered the RCBS furance also (also has digital temperature control like the Lyman) but it is simply not available to me in Canada right now.

Lyman Mould no. 457125 for .459" dia 500g bullet
I cannot find this highly recommended mold available anywhere in Canada right now, so any help with the search would be great! Open to a new or used one. I saw one on eBay.ca, but the asking price seemed as predatory as current primer prices at some dealers. What should I expect to pay for this mold?

Lyman 2 cavity / 1 cavity Mold handle (found a good deal in Canada)
Dipper - not needed if using the MAG 25 furnace which drops the lead directly into the mold?

Lubricator Sizer - What brand and model recommended and available?

Lubricator heater - What brand and model recommended and available?

Die for .459" bullet diameter - must be same brand as sizer & heater, correct?

Top punch - must be same brand as sizer & heater, correct?

Bullet lube or coating? Which is best for .45-70 500g .459" bullet traveling at no more than about 1200 fps?

Flux?? Mike Venturino did not cover "flux" in the Lyman book articles. Why do I need it and how do I use it?

Lead - What alloy and where do I buy pre-made the right composition for 45-70 500g .459" bullet with muzzle velocity of no more than 1200 fps? How much does lead or lead alloy cost these days?

Ingot mould - Got that from Canadian dealer. I assume this is needed to pour remaining lead out of the furnace after completing a casting session?

Lead Hardness Tester - I assume this checks the accuracy of the hardness. What brands or models are recommended?

Yes I know about the potential dangers of lead splashes and vapors, and the need to keep any water well away. I will also wear the right clothing, and do the casting outdoors.

What else have I not thought of so far?

Jim G

 

[P Flados]

I have been relying on my own cast bullets for 95% of my shooting for a good number of years. The Lyman manual is good, but there are other sources worth a read. One is http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm. I consider both of these sources as not quite up to the state of the art due to powder coating and a few other things that have been learned in recent years.

A lube sizer would probably do fine for your gun. There are other things you could try instead. I do not have a lube sizer. I use tumble lube for low power and powder coat for high power. Holding off on the lube sizer and trying some tumble lube to start will save some up-front costs.

Lee makes two different molds for 500 gr bullets. I do not really like either of them. The one with a good shape is a gas check (not needed) and the plain base looks too pointed. The Lee 450 gr actually looks more like something worth trying. I know you stated you want a 500 gr, but at the cost of a lee 2 cav, the 450 might be worth a try.

Flux is not a big deal. I typically use a little bit of candle wax. Toss it in after the lead is molten, and provide an ignition source.

Lead alloy can be a challenge. I have been able to get by using range scrap for the past few years. From what I hear, the 45-70 is easy to satisfy as far as alloy. I would recommend pretty soft for the 45-70. Not dead soft, but still soft enough to scratch with your fingernail. I would not bother with a lead hardness tester at this point. I have no clue as to the sources that would be available in your area. If I needed to buy lead again, I would go to a local scrap yard and would expect to pay on the order of $1.25 (US) per pound. My last trip to the scrap yard found most of their stuff to be pure or near pure. I did get a chunk or two that were too hard to scratch with a finger nail. Mixing some hard and soft to get something in between is not that difficult.

 

[Targa]

I would add pan lubing as another option to look at. This is what I did prior to switching to powder coating and I enjoyed it. For hardness testing I use artist pencils, they work well..

 

[Scrapiron45]

The mold will depend on your wants and what the gun likes.
I scrounge wheel weights and plumbing lead or the most part.
I like an electric pot and a dipper for bullets, made a bigger pot for use over gas for initial scrap.
Muffin tins work for ingots.
Flux with candle wax.
Used to lube by hand a mix of beeswax / crisco now I powdercoat.
Size with the little Lee sets that fit the press.
After 20 years of casting I bought a thermometer, didn't change anything.
Faceshield, gloves, long sleeve cotton shirt, plenty of ventilation.
Remember, the old guys did this over a campfire (smile).

 

[Scrapiron45]

Two questions I didn't address, I flux after the lead melts, drop a small piece of wax in and with an old spoon skim off the trash, maybe a couple times during the the cast.
I don't empty the pot after I'm finished, just leave the remainder in it.
Didn't mean to be repetitive about the safety, I teach safety classes and have a habit of repeating myself several times in a conversation.
Hope this helps.

 

[Armored farmer]

I enjoy casting and find it satisfying.
I rarely buy any bullets for my shooting needs.
A couple of items that you might find convenient is a metal bucket half filled with sand or ashes to drop the skimmed off dross into.
An old cookie sheet with cotton towel for dropping freshly cast bullets into.
Get some beeswax to have on hand for lube of your molds and for Flux. It has many uses.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Thank-you, Guys, for adding missing items and for the guidance on how-to!

About Tumble Lubing: Can one fo you describe how that works? What you use, where you get it, how long, etc?

Powder coating sounds very attractive. Do I have to go to a powder coating shop or can I do that myself in-house (without aggravating or alarming my very patient wife who DOES have reservations and limits)? How is this done?

Fluxing: So adding the candle wax somehow "brings impurities to the surface" for skimming off?? (Mike Venturino said nothing about this in the Lyman book articles)

Thanks especially for the "scrap yard for lead" idea. There is indeed a large metal salvage operation just a few kilometers from my home. I'll ask them what they have in Lead.

Yes, thanks for itemizing the faceshield, gloves, long sleeve cotton shirt, plenty of ventilation. I am building a "Casting Bullets Checklist" to make sure I don't miss or forget anything, for each session.

Also thanks for the suggestion to use a metal bucket half filled with sand or ashes to drop the skimmed off dross into. This is important as the dross will be HOT!

Keep the suggestions coming. I am an eager student.

Jim G

 

[BBarn]

I use an RCBS lube-sizer, but the Lyman model is fine as well. Both sizing dies and top punches are independently interchangeable between those two brands.

I use a Lyman universal lube heater with my RCBS lube-sizer, but it works with the Lyman lube-sizer and other models as well. I plug my heater into a receptacle powered by a light dimmer to control the level of heat.

Lube is a matter of preference. Some lubes require no heat when used in a lube-sizer. I prefer lubes that require a bit of heat and are less messy when cool. I'm currently using Carnauba Red from White Label Lube.

I use both wax and sawdust for fluxing.

Rotometals is one source for lead alloys. You might want to mix some of their Lyman #2 with pure lead. Or straight clip-on wheel weight alloy would probably work well by itself if you can find it.

 

[Blue68f100]

You really don't want to be cleaning up the lead with your casting pot. Use a different pot to process unclean lead to keep your casting pot clean. Most use a pot over a propane burner. And by all means wear protective clothing and gear. Molten lead is something you do not want to get splatted with.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I use an RCBS lube-sizer, but the Lyman model is fine as well. Both sizing dies and top punches are independently interchangeable between those two brands.
Thanks! The Lyman / RCBS interchangeabiity will make sourcing here in Canada much easier.

I use a Lyman universal lube heater with my RCBS lube-sizer, but it works with the Lyman lube-sizer and other models as well. I plug my heater into a receptacle powered by a light dimmer to control the level of heat.
The suggestions above about tumble lubing and powder coating are attractive in that they would save almost $200 CDN in initial setup costs, but the sizing also seems like a good idea to get the best possible diameter accuracy. So I am a bit confused: Is sizing through a die still necessary when doing tumbe lubing or powder coating?

Lube is a matter of preference. Some lubes require no heat when used in a lube-sizer. I prefer lubes that require a bit of heat and are less messy when cool. I'm currently using Carnauba Red from White Label Lube.

I use both wax and sawdust for fluxing.

Rotometals is one source for lead alloys. You might want to mix some of their Lyman #2 with pure lead. Or straight clip-on wheel weight alloy would probably work well by itself if you can find it.

What BHN range does "Lyman #2" produce?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

You really don't want to be cleaning up the lead with your casting pot. Use a different pot to process unclean lead to keep your casting pot clean. Most use a pot over a propane burner. And by all means wear protective clothing and gear. Molten lead is something you do not want to get splatted with.

Yes, 700 degrees F could do a LOT of tissue and eye damage!

Jim G

 

[BBarn]

What BHN range does "Lyman #2" produce?

Jim G

About 15.

You could also mix a little pure lead with Hardball alloy (which is also about BHN 15), but too much pure lead can leave you a little shy on tin which my not produce nice well filled bullets.

 

[J-Bar]

Flux is a flammable material (wax, sawdust) used in the effort to burn off flammable impurities mixed in with the molten lead. Flux is mostly used when cleaning up scrap lead by melting it in something other than your casting furnace. The stuff you put in your casting furnace should already be very clean. Stirring the melt will bring lighter impurities to the top where you can skim them off with a spoon or ladle. Some casters put a layer of sawdust on top of the melt to reduce the formation of oxides during casting. I have not had good results with that approach because I recycle the sprue back into the pot quickly and the sawdust (charcoal by this time) gets mixed back into the melt. I prefer stirring the melt often to skim out oxides as they form.

I tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox. I dilute it with mineral spirits (one part LLA plus 4 parts mineral spirits) and use a blow dryer to evaporate the mineral spirits while agitating the moistened bullets in a little bowl. LLA is very gummy and most folks use too much; you just want a little stain or color change on the bullet. It will clog up your seating and crimping dies if you use too much.

 

[JimGnitecki]

About 15.

You could also mix a little pure lead with Hardball alloy (which is also about BHN 15), but too much pure lead can leave you a little shy on tin which my not produce nice well filled bullets.

Using the formula BHN = PSI /(1422*0.90) that Missouri Bullet Company uses, BHN = 15 is perfect for the 16,000 to 19,000 psi range I am loading to! Thank-you!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Flux is a flammable material (wax, sawdust) used in the effort to burn off flammable impurities mixed in with the molten lead. Flux is mostly used when cleaning up scrap lead by melting it in something other than your casting furnace. The stuff you put in your casting furnace should already be very clean. Stirring the melt will bring lighter impurities to the top where you can skim them off with a spoon or ladle. Some casters put a layer of sawdust on top of the melt to reduce the formation of oxides during casting. I have not had good results with that approach because I recycle the sprue back into the pot quickly and the sawdust (charcoal by this time) gets mixed back into the melt. I prefer stirring the melt often to skim out oxides as they form.

I tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox. I dilute it with mineral spirits (one part LLA plus 4 parts mineral spirits) and use a blow dryer to evaporate the mineral spirits while agitating the moistened bullets in a little bowl. LLA is very gummy and most folks use too much; you just want a little stain or color change on the bullet. It will clog up your seating and crimping dies if you use too much.

Thank-you J-Bar for that explanation of how "tumble lubing" cna be done using Lee Liquid Alox. That sounds simple enough!

Do I need to SIZE the bullets first though, or is sizing merely an extra step you take for the most important match bullet preparation?

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I would not spend the money on a lubrasizer, lube dies, top punch and other accoutrements required to go that route including a lube heater. A bag of powdercoat 20$ a #1 plastic container, and the noe sizing system will get you ready to roll inside 100$. If you want to go .460 vs .458, or .459 that new die is 7.50$
If your doing that already I would just order the mold you need from them at the same time. If you have a material choice I prefer brass, steel, then aluminum in that order.

 

[AJC1]

Using the formula BHN = PSI /(1422*0.90) that Missouri Bullet Company uses, BHN = 15 is perfect for the 16,000 to 19,000 psi range I am loading to! Thank-you!

Jim G

That will work, but is far harder (read more expensive) material than you need. Those are 38 special pressures that use soft swaged lead. Bhn 10-11 is a better fit imo.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I would not spend the money on a lubrasizer, lube dies, top punch and other accoutrements required to go that route including a lube heater. A bag of powdercoat 20$ a #1 plastic container, and the noe sizing system will get you ready to roll inside 100$. If you want to go .460 vs .458, or .459 that new die is 7.50$
If your doing that already I would just order the mold you need from them at the same time. If you have a material choice I prefer brass, steel, then aluminum in that order.

1. You said "If you want to go .460 vs .458, or .459 that new die is 7.50$". Do you mean sizing the bullets in a loading press die versus a lubasizer?

2. I have not been able to yet find an online article on powder coating bullets. It DOES sound a lot less costly and messy than lubing via sizer or tumbling. HOW is it done?

3. The brass, steel, or aluminum choice is for WHAT? A mold? Or?

Jim G

 

[Kp321]

Very good information in the above posts. I use Marvelux to flux with. It is a dry powder that does not smoke or flame up. One can will last a lifetime. One point that has not been covered is to stir the pot while fluxing. This will re-introduce alloying metals into the lead. Otherwise, it will be skimmed off and lost. Castboolets.com is a source for all the casting information you could ever need. I still use my 50 year old Lyman lubrisizer with Alox/beeswax lube which requires no heating. I have seen good reports on powder coating cast bullets but have not tried it myself. The powder coating can be done at home using a toaster oven to cure. It seems a bit tedious to have to stand each bullet on a cookie sheet to cure but how many 45-70’s are you going to use? It is recommended to size the bullets after coating which can be done with the lubrisizer without lube or a Lee push through sizer which would be cost effective.
I will re-emphasize all the safety warnings, especially about water near the pot. One drop of water can cause the pot to erupt molten lead, not a pleasant experience.

 

[J-Bar]

Do I need to SIZE the bullets first though, or is sizing merely an extra step you take for the most important match bullet preparation?
Jim G

I'm lucky that my bullets drop without the need for resizing. If your bullets are much more than 0.001" bigger than bore diameter, you may need to resize, which would be done before tumble lubing.

Like most other reloading activities, you will eventually find procedures you are comfortable with and that work well for your guns. It's not completely trial and error, but you can expect some of that!

 

[JimGnitecki]

That will work, but is far harder (read more expensive) material than you need. Those are 38 special pressures that use soft swaged lead. Bhn 10-11 is a better fit imo.

So you are thinking that BHN 16 would be too hard and hurt obturation, and thus hurt accuracy and promote leading?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Very good information in the above posts. I use Marvelux to flux with. It is a dry powder that does not smoke or flame up. One can will last a lifetime. One point that has not been covered is to stir the pot while fluxing. This will re-introduce alloying metals into the lead. Otherwise, it will be skimmed off and lost. Castboolets.com is a source for all the casting information you could ever need. I still use my 50 year old Lyman lubrisizer with Alox/beeswax lube which requires no heating. I have seen good reports on powder coating cast bullets but have not tried it myself. The powder coating can be done at home using a toaster oven to cure. It seems a bit tedious to have to stand each bullet on a cookie sheet to cure but how many 45-70’s are you going to use? It is recommended to size the bullets after coating which can be done with the lubrisizer without lube or a Lee push through sizer which would be cost effective.
I will re-emphasize all the safety warnings, especially about water near the pot. One drop of water can cause the pot to erupt molten lead, not a pleasant experience.

So, you cannot size first and then powder coat? I would think that if you powder coat first and then size, the powder coat can be rubbed off in places by the sizing die, no?

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

1. You said "If you want to go .460 vs .458, or .459 that new die is 7.50$". Do you mean sizing the bullets in a loading press die versus a lubasizer?

2. I have not been able to yet find an online article on powder coating bullets. It DOES sound a lot less costly and messy than lubing via sizer or tumbling. HOW is it done?

3. The brass, steel, or aluminum choice is for WHAT? A mold? Or?

Jim G

#1 yes, a press mounted sizer like the Lee but has swappable sizing plugs that are cheap and easy to change...
#2 on YouTube check out Fortunecookie45lc. Not only does he explain pc, he also shows it on 500 and 600 45-70 bullets. He also explains casting of those same bullets, exactly what your trying to do... here is a link to one of his videos many will apply...

#3 yes I'm talking about mold materials. I prefer brass because they don't rust, but more importantly they are more mass giving better thermal stability for more consistent bullets.

Flux with saw dust.... it's easy free and plentiful.

 

[AJC1]

So, you cannot size first and then powder coat? I would think that if you powder coat first and then size, the powder coat can be rubbed off in places by the sizing die, no?

Jim G

Pc then size to final diameter.... if your messing up the coating, something is wrong.

 

[AJC1]

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm
Some good casual reading.