Hokus Pokus

[Ryder]

Is it a part of your self-defense plans? I believe there is a great advantage to using the element of surprise and I often incorporate it into my self-defense training at the range. Found some good reading tonight. It is written about sword play but it doesn't take much imagination to realize how it also relates to guns. Sure rang a bell with me...

Cut from "Fighting Skeptic - Of Martial Arts and Magic Arts"
By John Clements
ARMA Director

...I have often asserted that there is actually a strong but unrecognized connection between the martial arts and the magical arts, between the student of magic and the student of fighting. Although they would seem polar opposites, consider:

- We each employ deception and perception to achieve results.

- We both depend upon concealing our true actions and movements while reading those of our targets.

- We both employ adroit dexterity honed through long hours of practice; yet display a sense of sprezzatura—the appearance of unstudied ease and natural grace.

- We each study concepts privy to a select few that are at once simple yet secret.

- We each are concerned with how human beings react physically and emotionally to what they perceive and experience as reality.

- We both acquire mental and physical discipline through exercise of the craft.

- We each work toward an unattainable mastery over our art.

- We each seek ultimately to direct the mind of those we engage.
...

His other essays are pretty good reading also http://www.thearma.org/essays.htm.

 

[Skribs]

- We both depend upon concealing our true actions and movements while reading those of our targets.

Magicians aren't really required to read the movements and actions of the audience. They anticipate what the audience will perceive, but you're generally not worried about the audience's illusions during yours.

- We each study concepts privy to a select few that are at once simple yet secret.

Martial Arts are not "privy to a select few". Anyone can go to an MA class and learn the sport. Magic as well, but with Martial Arts your moves aren't "secret" once you've done them. Magicians, however, may have no idea how another magician does things.

- We each are concerned with how human beings react physically and emotionally to what they perceive and experience as reality.

Magicians don't need people to react physically, just emotionally and mentally.

- We each work toward an unattainable mastery over our art.

As can be said about any sport or art, and as may or may not be true of all people who do said sport or art.

Overall, I agree with some points, but it sounds like this guy is trying to turn magic into something it's not. They have similarities, yes, but he should have left it at that instead of stretching magic into something where the audience is performing counter-illusions and the magician is required to out-illusion them.

Although, if you're talking about the Harry Potter magician, there actually is a lot of relevance to Martial Arts in wizard battles (e.g. not letting your opponent know what you're thinking, attack and defend, mastery of the craft, anticipate your opponents movements), but I doubt that's what the author was talking about.

In all seriousness, Martial Arts can probably be compared to a lot of things. Baseball (batter anticipates the pitcher, pitcher and runners anticipate each other, desire for mastery of the sport, physical and mental conditioning), Video Games (reactions, knowledge of the art, anticipate your opponents movements and hide your own until you're ready to strike), Baking (mastery of the art, anticipate your diner's wishes), etc.

I don't think that "Hocus Pocus" or magic is relevant to most people's home defense strategy. The basic plan of finding a safe room and holing up while calling the cops isn't about illusion, it's about barricading yourself in a secure room. Magic would come into it if you have secret passageways you use to clear your house like I'd expect to see Jason Bourne or Jack Bauer do...taking out several enemies armed with fully automatics without any of them ever seeing you. But alas, as those are TV characters, and it fails standard safety practices, I don't see it being relevant.

 

[Kleanbore]

I agree with Skribs, both in the general critique and in the conclusion that there is little if any relevance to home defense.

I don't see any real relevance to other self defense scenarios, either. This is about fighting, and if one knowingly enters into mutual combat and uses deadly force, he most likely will be denied the opportunity to mount a defense of justification.

 

[Ryder]

I was not thinking in relation to home invasion. That's something I am prepared to deal with in a straight forward manner.

A majority of the time when a criminal on the street has threatened my life they already had the drop on me. If it has already happened several times I have to reckon the odds are good it can happen again. There is nothing you can do except delay and distract (that's the magic). These wannabe killers will give you a chance to pull your rabbit from the hat (or pull a disappearing act) if you can deceive them long enough to play off their distractions and read their reactions. Watch their eyes for this. You have practiced to make the hand quicker than the eye?

As opposed to this example... There was a store robbery here shortly after permits became shall issue. I'll never forget that video. Bad guy is standing in front of a cashier with a 12 gauge when some customer barges through the door. The customer sees what is happening and tries to dig out a pistol from deep concealment (one of those crotch holsters) getting tangled in his shirt. The shotgun aims at him says "don't do it", the customer hesitates a second and then starts digging around in his underwear with renewed vigor So he screams "don't do it" and takes a step forward to be sure and not miss blowing this guys head off. The guy hesitates again. You could see the gears turning, should he or shouldn't he, should he or shouldn't he He finally relented and got down on the floor but I thought for sure he was a goner the first time I watched that. In fact I was surprised he didn't get shot anyway just for the heck of it because his magic was not strong.

Do you remember hearing about that doctor who was kidnapped at gunpoint years back and forced to drive the kidnapper for something like an hour before he got his chance to pull a rabbit from the hat? I bet his kidnapper would have wondered what hit him if he was capable... Heyyy, it's magic

 

[Ryder]

if one knowingly enters into mutual combat and uses deadly force, he most likely will be denied the opportunity to mount a defense of justification.

I don't consider there to be anything mutual about having a loaded 38 special shoved in my face and being told I was going to die. Yet here I am... My magic was strong that day

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I am somewhat confused how this has anything to do with strategies and tactics. I could talk about how bowling or golf are like shooting, but that doesn't mean it's really an S&T topic.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ryder: A majority of the time when a criminal on the street has threatened my life they already had the drop on me. If it has already happened several times I have to reckon the odds are good it can happen again.

I suggest trying to figure out how you have managed to get into such situations and take steps try to avoid them in the future.

That will give you much better odds than trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat when someone already has the drop on you.

 

[Ryder]

I already did. I outgrew them. Nobody under 21 can get a CCW in this country. Criminals know this and it makes them targets anytime, anywhere. The revolver incident happened in school, during the 10th grade. Should I not have gone to school?

 

[o Unforgiven o]

Nobody under 21 can get a CCW in this country.

That is inaccurate.

 

[Sam1911]

Is it a part of your self-defense plans? I believe there is a great advantage to using the element of surprise and I often incorporate it into my self-defense training at the range.

First off, I don't see much to recommend the essayist's opinions as would relate to self-defense shooting.

However, there is a place for some "surprise" techniques in your skill-set.

I don't mean a bunch of flash powder up your sleeve, though.

We've had a few threads recently about breaking up an attacker's "OODA" loop and/or "creating time to act." Those tend to rely on actions you might take (even things you might say) that interrupt the flow of the encounter the bad guy has planned out in order to either, a) send up a few red flags in his mind that this victim might not be worth the hassle, or b) create seconds or fractions of seconds to draw our own weapon, perform a strike or kick, flee, etc.

These aren't gimmicks, tricks, or legerdemain.

 

[Ryder]

That is inaccurate.

I thought that was part of that federal law which prevents them from buying handguns over the counter. I think you're right, CCW is a state law. It's 21 here

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I believe there is a great advantage to using the element of surprise and I often incorporate it into my self-defense training at the range.

How about describing some examples of how you've incorporated "surprise" into your training along your rationale for the advantage you're attempting to achieve?

Surprise is but one of many mechanisms to disrupt an adversary's OODA Loop. This "Tools of Tactics" cheat sheet describes a few more - http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/tools_of_tactics.pdf

 

[Cosmoline]

Drawing from concealed carry *IS* a magic trick. It's not a card up the sleeve, it's a pistol in the pants. But the principle is the same. And I don't see why fundamentals of magic couldn't be used to make the trick more effective. Ideally you don't want your attacker to know you're armed until you shoot him. There are techniques that will keep him looking the wrong way, if only for the few seconds it takes to get prepared.

This is about fighting, and if one knowingly enters into mutual combat and uses deadly force, he most likely will be denied the opportunity to mount a defense of justification.

You'll have to explain yourself a little more. Are you suggesting that being prepared to distract an attacker with the use of techniques borrowed from magic will nullify a self defense claim? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I suggest trying to figure out how you have managed to get into such situations and take steps try to avoid them in the future.

If this were a guarantee of safety from attack, then none of us would need to carry any means of protection. The fact is you may well find yourself with iron pointed at your head. If you try any kind of normal straight-at-em presentation your head will be gone. And if you cooperate it may also be gone. Deception can be a very useful tool in such situations. And I am surprised nobody seems to have thought of merging these disciplines before.

 

[Ryder]

send up a few red flags in his mind that this victim might not be worth the hassle,

I was following those threads. Easily done one on one (for me).

Twice I've been threatened with death by groups of 4 larger individuals while walking down the road. Once in the city, once in the country. If they're high or drunk don't count on them picking up any hints, their actions may already be predetermined. Remember what I said, by the time you know your life is in danger they already have the drop on you. It is too late to make any obvious move. They are on high alert for it and are just beyond a step and a grab.

I did try to intimidate the drunks after they threatened me (17 years old in the military). I don't know what made me think they would see the sense in leaving a sober person alone, but they didn't. I also learned a few things not to say while speaking to a gang of druggies, that being anything. They already want to kill you, everything you say builds anger in a would be killer amazingly easy. It must be how murderers self-motivate. This anger seems artificial to me but it is apparently what pushes them into initiating the the process of your demise.

Maybe I was lucky that in both cases they wanted to move me off the road away from the original point of contact. They didn't want to act in the open so I was able to delay. They wanted nothing from me but my life and The way I see it they deserve no fair chance at that. Lulling them into a false sense of security is what allowed me the time needed for them to make a mistake, to drop their guard, and create an opening. I'm sure it can be called lots of fancy names, I'm sticking with magic

 

[Warhawk83]

- We both employ adroit dexterity honed through long hours of practice; yet display a sense of sprezzatura—the appearance of unstudied ease and natural grace.

I've been in self defense situations, and I have to say not once did I resemble anything like ease and natural grace. Cursing and rolling around...meh.

 

[Ryder]

How about describing some examples of how you've incorporated "surprise" into your training along your rationale for the advantage you're attempting to achieve?

Along the lines of what Cosmoline said (he gets it). They should not see me reaching, they should not see a presentation, they should be left wondering what just happened to them.

I carry x-draw OWB due to a bad back. One of my training routines is to start with a target which is just beyond a step and a grab away. I raise my palms in a stop gesture turn around to disengage and lower my arms as I walk away. If the target is smart it will let me continue walking because if/when I am forced to turn back around the gun is firing and I am offline fast. I hit what I shoot at and I only need a single step rearward to set this up.

It has some risk but the rewards outweigh them IMO. People don't generally see someone with their back to them as a threat so I don't think being shot is too likely. Witnesses may see me as attempting to disengage (as will the threat), that's a good thing. From the threat perspective my strong hand and gun are completely blocked from view by my body. Once gun is in hand I need only turn 90 degrees to begin shooting from a retention position while my left arm shields my vitals. It's very fast and smooth with natural motions.

One of the essays I discovered on that site last night dealt with footwork. I am going to have to study that more closely. It looked promising from the quick once over I gave it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Cosmoline: And I don't see why fundamentals of magic couldn't be used to make the trick more effective. Ideally you don't want your attacker to know you're armed until you shoot him. There are techniques that will keep him looking the wrong way, if only for the few seconds it takes to get prepared.

I agree, though "a few seconds" may be overstating it.

You'll have to explain yourself a little more. Are you suggesting that being prepared to distract an attacker with the use of techniques borrowed from magic will nullify a self defense claim? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

No. The point of my comment was that the cited essay, and the set of essays with which it is linked, are primarily about fencing--two combatants going at each other with swords.

In the old days one might have done that in self defense--after "retreating to the wall"--but it is unlikely today. One will find that while certain basic skills are transferable, a number of the tactics taught are taught in martial arts are not ideal for self defense.

Regarding magic, I thought that Skribs did a pretty convincing job of pointing out how three of Clements' first four alleged similarities between martial arts and magic are bogus, and how several others could apply to just about anything.

If this [trying to avoid situations in which one has been drawn upon] were a guarantee of safety from attack, then none of us would need to carry any means of protection.

I think the means of protection that most of us carry is best employed when imminent danger presents itself but before one has a gun in his face. The OP stated that "they already had the drop on me" the majority of the times he has been threatened, that it has happened several times, and that the "odds are good that it will happen again". I suggest that there are better ways to stay safe than practicing what to do when someone already has a gun in your face.

 

[Cosmoline]

Of course you can make choices to avoid bad areas, etc., but unless you're keeping a personal space of 25 feet at all times and have eyes in the back of your head, can't someone always get the jump on you? The criminal has the initiative.

I thought that Skribs did a pretty convincing job of pointing out how three of Clements' first four alleged similarities between martial arts and magic are bogus, and how several others could apply to just about anything.

I don't agree that magicians disregard the audience or don't need to respond to the audience physically. Many tricks depend on physical distraction and manipulation. While they're not directly applicable, the skills underlying them are. More importantly, the underlying methods of distraction could be of considerable use for presentation of a defensive weapon. I don't pretend to know enough to make specific suggestions, but the concept has real merit to it.

I think the initial rejection of the idea comes down to a feeling that magic is a game, and self defense isn't. But as I pointed out, drawing a CCW is already a magic trick. The fact that it's a deadly trick played while facing imminent death makes it more important to learn more about the art underlying tricks, not less important.

 

[Ryder]

One will find that while certain basic skills are transferable, a number of the tactics taught are taught in martial arts are not ideal for self defense.

I feel that if I can gain one small "trick" to add to my repertoire from all the stuff written on that site it is time well spent. I'm not an all or nothing sort of guy. Not looking for instant solutions (especially where there is no existent problem). Knowledge dovetails with applications for me. What I read there has a ring of truth so I will endeavor to comprehend how it relates to my current understanding in a useful way. I am going to pursue the footwork aspect, 600 year old lost combat knowledge is very enticing. I can already see it would be useful in reading body language and intentions. I do not intend to begin wearing ballet slippers however.

Except for basic marksmanship and safety I've never adopted any firearm training as gospel. I customize everything through experimentation. Trial and error allow me to improve upon and perfect various techniques before they become a part of me. With time basic skills such as trigger control and breathing become second nature and effortless, so too do advanced techniques.

I keep the best and discard the rest. I don't adopt anything just because I invented it, or because it works for others. Some things will not work for everyone. I suspect the willingness to customize is lacking in some. I also believe that physical abilities are a gifted talent which not everyone can possess to the same degree no matter how hard they try (surfboards were created by the devil ).

Mastery is very important. I don't believe a master of anything only copies what others have done, mastery takes them beyond that. At least that has been my experience. You speak of self-defense with guns as though it is not a martial art. While I can generally interpret anything to be useful in some way, shape, or form that concept eludes me. One of those essays discussed fellowships such as we have here. Where information and trust is shared. It is such as martial artists do and it was what prompted my contribution.

 

[Old krow]

It's an interesting read. I can see the similarities, but more along the lines of the way it was intended. In Self-Defense the "fight" is only truly a small portion of the entire interaction. This really only applies to that specific piece of the puzzle.

I think that there is a portion of each statement that could apply in Self-Defense, or at least the fighting part of it. I think that this version is slightly more applicable;

- We each employ perception to achieve results. Deception is the BGs game, not necessarily mine.

- We both depend upon reading those of our targets. (Intentions and movements)

- We each study concepts.

- We each are concerned with how human beings react physically and emotionally to what they perceive and experience as reality.

- We both acquire mental and physical discipline through exercise of the craft.

- We each work toward an unattainable mastery over our art. (Could easily be combined with the other point concerning dexterity and finesse, "mastery" should cover it all.)

- We each seek ultimately to direct the mind of those we engage.

The reason why I would change that the way I did was because in Self-Defense it is more likely to be of a "predator/prey" nature than a fight in the traditional sense. I'm not concerned about deception, I want the opponent to know that I am a hard target, a porcupine comes to mind. I want them to know that my defeat will come at great costs if at all.

There's some truth to what Skribbs said about the analogy holding true in other sports/activities, specifically those that involve competition at the level where the opponents must engage on a psychological level.

I don't necessarily disagree with the analogy, but it's more in tuned to fighting that self-defense is.

 

[Skribs]

Cosmoline, the difference is that the magician goes into the trick anticipating where the audience will be looking. During the trick, it is the audience's perception and the magician's physical work. The audience (volunteers become a part of the trick and are on his 'side' then) does not do physical countering, and the magician is not supposed to perceive the audiences next move. You'll never hear a magician go "I was going to pull the curtain off and reveal a tiger, but because the audience all leaned left, it was a lion instead." The point was that the author stated that magic is about both anticipating what the other is doing, but it's not. Magic tricks are planned in advance and are not done reactively - only one person is reacting. Martial Arts, even if trained for all contingencies, still requires you to react to what your opponent does.

Magic, Martial Arts, and Self Defense (as Old Krow pointed out) are all different. As a magician, your goal is to set up one plan - how to fool the audience. You don't need to react during the trick (unless you want to use wit to make your audience laugh) and you don't need to have alternate plans. Martial Arts (basically any full-contact sport) you both go in with the goal of duping your opponent. With SD, your opponent is playing the role of the "magician", except he also will have to react to what you do. The difference is, he comes in with a plan, while you have to react to his plan. He's the white player in the chess game.

I don't think Kleanbore was trying to say that you should never be in an SD situation, but rather that if you get into a lot, you should probably reevaluate your avoidance approach, or else what you do. I don't know anyone in here, so you may have done nothing wrong, but if you mouth off to the wrong people or if you go looking for trouble, you're much more likely to be put in harms way.

Along the lines of what Cosmoline said (he gets it). They should not see me reaching, they should not see a presentation, they should be left wondering what just happened to them.

I carry x-draw OWB due to a bad back. One of my training routines is to start with a target which is just beyond a step and a grab away. I raise my palms in a stop gesture turn around to disengage and lower my arms as I walk away. If the target is smart it will let me continue walking because if/when I am forced to turn back around the gun is firing and I am offline fast. I hit what I shoot at and I only need a single step rearward to set this up.

It has some risk but the rewards outweigh them IMO. People don't generally see someone with their back to them as a threat so I don't think being shot is too likely. Witnesses may see me as attempting to disengage (as will the threat), that's a good thing. From the threat perspective my strong hand and gun are completely blocked from view by my body. Once gun is in hand I need only turn 90 degrees to begin shooting from a retention position while my left arm shields my vitals. It's very fast and smooth with natural motions.

One of the essays I discovered on that site last night dealt with footwork. I am going to have to study that more closely. It looked promising from the quick once over I gave it.

I'm confused...are you saying you practice turning around, walking away, and then turning back to your opponent and firing? I see two possible scenarios here - either 1) he's going to let you go, and then you just shot him in revenge for what he did in the past (seconds ago, but still the past), or 2) when you turn around he's going to take the opportunity to attack. I'd rather keep my eyes on the target, so I know what he's doing.

 

[Cosmoline]

it is the audience's perception and the magician's physical work. The audience (volunteers become a part of the trick and are on his 'side' then) does not do physical countering, and the magician is not supposed to perceive the audiences next move.

You're thinking about formal stage magic. I'm thinking about underlying techniques of slight of hand and distraction. It could be nothing more complex than using the lift of a hat or coat, combined with body position, to conceal a draw. Or using the wallet itself as a tool to distract. Magicians are very good at this sort of thing, and there may be much to learn from them. How to position the body to keep the "audience" from seeing what you're doing. How to move naturally and put the audience off its guard. In short, how to regain the initiative.

The standard presentations are frankly as obvious as possible. I suppose because of the roots from military and law enforcement where the draw was an "honest" one from an open holster. There's no real attempt to conceal what happens, and the only way of regaining initiative with these techniques is to draw and present very very fast. This uses an explosion of action, which can certainly be enough to get you shot. And not everyone is going to be able to draw like a practical shooting champion. But if you use dissemblance and distraction you may not need to. Surely there is a better way of going about things than just hoping he won't shoot you until you're up and shooting.

Drawing from concealment is already a magic trick, so why not make it a better one? It is an interesting idea worth exploring further.

 

[mustang_steve]

To me there is nothing magic about drawing from concealment...provided, my concealment is thought out with easy draw in mind.

Magic is relevant if you talk about street magic, which was a common ploy used by groupsof thieves throughout history. I actually got to see one in operation when I was in Turkey....a magician was keeping everyone distracted towards him, which a 5 or 6 year old child would cut just under the wallet bulge with a straight razor, causing the wallet to fall into his hands.

So in the original poater's context he means magic as the art of deception. There's another term for this....social engineering.

Once you learn verbal social engineerring, you become incredibly powerful. It's in your dress, how you carry yourself, and how you communicate.

Social engineering skills are a natural for anyone that has worked in customer service...how to calm an upset customer, how to guide a customer when they are asking for something ridiculous, or how to get someone to explain what's wrong when they just say "it's broke, replace it"....and then find out it was user error and nothing was broke at all. They're all forms of social engineering.

How that applies to a bad guy....it's all about throwing them off. You convey something other than what you are doing. you make them think you are compliant, giving them no reason to suspect your non-compliance...all the while you are ready to strike.

There is no direct practice for this as it's a soft skill. You have to devlop it in everyday use on non combative things.

 

[Old krow]

He's the white player in the chess game.

Since Skribbs brought Chest up, I'll use it as an analogy of the difference in martial arts and self-defense. Chest is a somewhat good representation of martial combat (in the sense that war is a martial art) in a linear manner. That's really what the argument is about, not so much that magic isn't real.

1. Martial Arts. You're white. You move, I counter your move. We play until the one wins.

2. Self-defense. You move King's Pawn two places. I move.

a. You move a knight and I walk away from the table and out the door.

b. You move the queen out and I smash your pieces with an 8 lb sledge hammer and walk out the door.

The original comparison between martial arts and self-defense is what many of the posters are saying is the part that they have a hard time buying off on. If you get useful information out of it, then that's great, but it doesn't make the analogy accurate in the sense that the fundamentals are the same.

 

[therewolf]

I have to agree with the OP somewhat, especially on the street.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a bright flashlight to blind a threat, for example, or use my car's remote starter to distract him/them, or to speak into a dark or out-of-sight area in order to make them think there are more people in the area than they thought.

Of course, my goal is, if possible, NOT to shoot anybody...

IMO, street survival means more than just having and using a gun.