Hollow Point Controversy

[Buzz9mm]

I've always been under the impression that hollow points are the best self defense ammo ... until a few days ago. I was watching a video earlier and an ER doctor was sharing stories and showing x-rays and one story stood out: A BG was hit twice in the chest with .40SW hollow points and one missed his heart by an inch and he survived! He didn't go into much detail, but regardless of the type of hollow point and the situation, I wound not expect someone to survive that. I have a .40 and that was shocking, hence my interest. After doing quite a bit of research, I've come to the conclusion that a 9mm is the absolute minimum that I'll carry(unless I have no choice...) and I'm selling my .40 and getting a .45 ASAP. With ammo selection, the heavier the better, the faster the better, and the flatter the better.

After looking into it a bit, it looks like most hollow points penetrate ~12" in a perfect world if they don't hit anything on the way to vitals. I don't know about you, but I don't like depending on a perfect world, especially if the BG is a 300lb dude on drugs. Sure hollow points expand(possibly), and cause more damage, but that means nothing if they don't hit vitals. From now on I'll be using wadcutters of some sort in my carry gun. They get better penetration and they do enough damage as it is that they don't need expansion.

Sure a few stories aren't that big of a deal and they're heresay, but they got me nervous enough that I'm switching to a .45. I know that most of the time a 9mm is plenty, but I'll take all the advantage I can get to give me a bigger margin of error. It seems like the biggest difference between the 9mm and the .40SW or bigger is that the 9mm can't break bones(usually) and deflects easier and the bigger ones can break bones and don't deflect(as easily). Different strokes for different folks, but I thought I would share that with you guys.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do anything. I just thought that I would share some of the stuff I've read and why I'm probably switching back to 9mm or .45. The whole purpose of this thread was to say that I think hollow points aren't that good and using them is a risk not worth the reward.

 

[NG VI]

That's forty inches of circumference bro.

 

[Buzz9mm]

That's forty inches of circumference bro.

Never mind, I'm an idiot. Regardless I'm getting a .45 though lol.

 

[NG VI]

And the service pistol calibers are all pretty much the same.

It's like wracking your nerves over choosing between .308, .260 Remington, 6.5x55mm, .30-06, .270, 7mm-08, and .280 Remington.

They're all pretty much equally appropriate for the same size game, and the service pistol calibers, that's 9mm through .45, including GAP, ACP, most 10mm loads, .38 Special and Super, but not .380 or 9mm Makarov.

The cartridges in that range are all capable of expanding decently and penetrating at least twelve inches at the same time in soft tissue, usually they can expand quite well without going below 12-13 inches of penetration. The excluded calibers cannot reliably do both, or do both well.

Hunting calibers can absolutely deliver the goods penetration wise, and even deliver some good expansion and still drive pretty deep, but the platforms and recoil levels are too high or heavy for them to be an acceptable choice for most people as a defense weapon.

 

[NG VI]

Penetration isn't measured by circumference.

A bullet going through all forty inches of someone's chest measurement would have to travel an elliptical path just under their skin from the point of entry all the way around back to the point of entry.

 

[G.W. McLintock]

The diameter of a circle that has a 40" circumference is 12.7".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[1hobie]

Circumference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumference) is the measurement around the outside for a circular object. Penetration distance is how far the round travels into the medium fired upon in a linear fashion.
So, if I take a watermelon with measurement of say 28" around, the linear distance will be less to the other side of the target.

Hobie

 

[Buzz9mm]

Penetration isn't measured by circumference.

A bullet going through all forty inches of someone's chest measurement would have to travel an elliptical path just under their skin from the point of entry all the way around back to the point of entry.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Brain fart.

And the service pistol calibers are all pretty much the same.

I agree, except for the possible lack of the 9mms bone breaking capabilities. I'm getting a .45 just because of the possibility of that being true. Plus a .45 is a 20% bigger hole which can't hurt. I'll still be getting another 9mm at some point(when money permits), but I'll avoid using it for carry.

For the record, I'm not trying to bash any calibers. I love the 9mm and the .40, but from now on I want the biggest caliber I can afford and control. I don't know what I was thinking with circumference, but everything else(bullet weight, diameter, and meplat diameter) are all very relevant. Plus, I don't know why the .40 hollow points didn't get enough penetration, but it's enough to sway me from buying them ever again. I'd rather have a .40 caliber bullet that makes it to what I'm shooting at than a .70 caliber bullet the doesn't any day.

 

[coolluke01]

Watch this. http://youtu.be/2dA36NYLqns This is from the late Paul Gomez. I've been rethinking my choice of 9mm and wondering if .45 would be better.

All modern SD rounds are designed to penetrate the 12" minimum. That means a .45 and a 9mm are made to meet the same standard. A .45 is slightly larger about 2/10ths of an inch. All that will mean is that you have a slightly better chance of nicking something vital. Forget any "knockdown power" or one shot stops. Over 80% of all handgun wounds are survived!!!

 

[TarDevil]

If you continue your research, you'll find plenty of stories of guys shot multiple times COM with .45 ACP and still in the fight.

I'll keep using hollow points...you're free to use what you please.

This has been beaten to death, but might as well do it again.

 

[beatledog7]

Nine replies and nobody has said it's all about shot placement.

 

[Buzz9mm]

Over 80% of all handgun wounds are survived!!!

That's because 80% of people using them are idiots.

If you continue your research, you'll find plenty of stories of guys shot multiple times COM with .45 ACP and still in the fight.

I know that, but regardless, from the research I've done the bigger the better and the heavier the better. I'll still go with the .45 just because of that.

Nine replies and nobody has said it's all about shot placement.

I know it's all about shot placement, but when your getting shot at and your shaking you might not be at your best. I want every advantage I can get, including bone breaking capabilities, so if I happen to hit a rib I don't die because of it.

 

[orionengnr]

A BG was hit twice in the chest with .40SW hollow points and one missed his heart by an inch and survived!

With a pistol round, any hit that misses the vitals will have a similar affect...and that is why shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, etc...

A hollow point improves your odds, because it will disrupt more tissue...but pistol rounds are not instant sabres of death.

I will continue to use quality JHP ammo, but I understand it's limitations.

 

[Frag Daddy]

if shooting someone with a 9mm won't do the job, i'm screwed anyway. Ye, he survived the shooting, but that doesn't mean he was still trying to kill the shooter. You shoot someone twice with anything and you've probably got a 95% chance they'll scram or hit the dirt.

 

[coolluke01]

He's only talking about caliber. He thinks 2/10ths of an inch will make up for poor shot placement.

You are right that shot placement is key.

The idea that a .45 will break bones where a 9mm won't is ludicrous. Ribs will break with both, but you are not even getting close to break the pelvis or femurs with a .45. I could hit you with a baseball bat and not break bones for sure, how is a tiny 230 gn chunk of lead going to do it?

 

[Certaindeaf]

.The idea that a .45 will break bones where a 9mm won't is ludicrous. Ribs will break with both, but you are not even getting close to break the pelvis or femurs with a .45. I could hit you with a baseball bat and not break bones for sure, how is a tiny 230 gn chunk of lead going to do it?

Wha? I/'d use stout and heavyish hardcast SWC's for both and I guarantee you, they'll be pass-throughs, bone or no.

 

[Buzz9mm]

He's only talking about caliber. He thinks 2/10ths of an inch will make up for poor shot placement.

You are right that shot placement is key.

The idea that a .45 will break bones where a 9mm won't is ludicrous. Ribs will break with both, but you are not even getting close to break the pelvis or femurs with a .45. I could hit you with a baseball bat and not break bones for sure, how is a tiny 230 gn chunk of lead going to do it?

Well, I can't cite everything that I've researched, but I'll personally be using a .45 with the flattest bullets that I can find. Take a look at bullet meplats and you'll see what I mean. Flat bullets act like hollow points that have already expanded. Also, it's just common sense that something with twice the weight going almost the same speed is going to hit harder. Would you rather have a Honda Civic hit you at 100MPH or a Dodge dually at 70MPH? I'll take the Civic any day.

With a pistol round, any hit that misses the vitals will have a similar affect...and that is why shot placement is King, penetration is Queen, etc...

I didn't mean that he missed his heart, he would have hit it but it didn't penetrate enough, which is why I'll be using FMJ from now on.

 

[threefortyduster]

With ammo selection, the heavier the better, the faster the better, and the flatter the better.

Ok, so you can get .45 in 230 gr...but its only going 900 fps. With a .40, you can send a 180 gr bullet at 1050 fps. So what do you want? Speed or weight? As for flat...all my bullets are round.

I don't think you're making a very convincing argument for the need to knee jerk decide from one YouTube video on the reasons you put forth to dump your .40 for a .45, but its your decision. Please send me all your useless .40 ammo, I'll dispose of it properly.

 

[NG VI]

It's one tenth of an inch difference, not two.

Not that it's a spectacularly meaningful amount anyway.

Ribs aren't that heavy, all of the service calibers should get through them without trouble in all but the rarest of oddball occasions.

 

[Skribs]

Pistol bullets cause physiological stops based on what they hit. There isn't a whole lot of difference in what an expanded .45 and an expanded 9mm hit, especially because the difference in expanded caliber between two similar loads of 9mm and .45 (i.e. Speer Gold Dot 147gr 9mm and 230gr .45) are going to be 0.1-0.15" apart. You would have to miss a vital organ by 0.005-0.075" in order to make the .45 worth it over the 9 on a per-shot basis, and the 9 wins out on recoil, capacity, and price.

Conversely, in the JHP vs. FMJ argument, you have the same recoil and capacity, but the FMJ will likely be cheaper. However, JHP vs. FMJ will have roughly triple the difference as .45 vs. 9, and the only real change in performance is penetration. Look at gel reports and see what different calibers penetrate to, and you'll be surprised to find that in JHP, they're going to be fairly similar (maybe an inch farther in .45 than 9), and overall they should meet minimum FBI standards. FMJ will go farther.

OP, you'll be surprised to find that all handguns suck, be it a .45 or a 9, or even a 5.7x28 or a .50. They are a compromise designed to allow us to carry them everyday.

 

[coolluke01]

I would much rather get hit my a 230 ball than one of these in 9mm. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jRE2Tnig6GnbbZXiA&sig2=4oYjonviobEhzqaBtei37g

Your idea of a civic and a dodge isn't accurate. The bullets we are talking about are less than 90 grains different and moving the same speed. About 990 for 147gn 9mm and around 950 for .45. Because the 9mm is slightly smaller they have about the same penetration.

Do yourself a huge favor and watch the Paul Gomez video I posted before. Good info and he puts things in perspective.

Then buy these and never worry about your 9mm not being adequate. Winchester Ranger T 147gn.

 

[Buzz9mm]

It's one tenth of an inch difference, not two.

It doesn't sound like a lot that way but it's around a 20% difference, that's quite a bit. The reason that I'll be getting a .45 is because after owning a .40 for a while it just doesn't seem worth it. It's more expensive, it has a lot more recoil, and 9mm ammo is more popular and easier to come by in SHTF situations. If I make more money in the future I'll probably get another .40, but for now I want a .45.

Also, the reason why I believe so strongly in weight being a big factor is because of a really long article I read a few years ago. It was a medical examiner talking about what he saw, and what worked good and what didn't. That article persuaded me to get a .40 and now that video I was talking about persuaded me to never use hollow points again. He talked about how they try to figure out what bullets were used by looking at the x-rays and usually when it was a huge amount of bullets("lead snowstorm") it was a 9mm or mouse guns. He also talked about how he wouldn't carry less than a .40 because of how many times he saw 9mm shots that should have stopped the BG but got deflected where as the .40 or .45 would just keep on trucking, plow through and stop the fight.

 

[vamo]

If the guy is in the hospital whatever round you used did its job, the objective is to disable the threat, death is just sometimes a side effect of being disabled.

 

[coolluke01]

I completely agree that .40 is not worth it. 9mm with give you 3-4 more rounds in the same sized gun than .45.

It's not even close to 20% either. A JHP .45 will expand to .80 and a JHP 9mm will expand to .70 That's just over 10%. It's microscopic! .10 is nothing. Consider that a mans chest is 18" wide. .10 is 1-180th of the target. Spend an hour once a year practicing and you will make a bigger impact in the effectiveness of your shooting than .10 in bullet diameter will give you.

I was just looking into the same thing you were the other day. After some research I came to the conclusion that the .45 is an antiquated idea and not a better performer than the 9mm with current loads.

 

[jl1288]

The op states an ER doc related a story to him about a shooting where the bg survived being shot by 40S&W. There was not a mention of the weight or type of bullet, or the condition/physique of the bg that was shot. I think shot placement, bullet weight, and bullet velocity are the critical elements to quick incapacitation. My local PD had four officers injured, two of them critically when they confronted a large very muscular assailant that was using steroids and high on cocaine. He was shot in the chest 4 times at less than ten feet got his hands on the officer firing the shots and beat him so severely he broke his jaw took the officers weapon and shot him with his own weapon as the other officers arrived multiple shots were fired from the assailant and the officers with all three officers being wounded and ending with a rookie officer scoring a head shot on the assailant. Now the interesting part was the coroners report, the local PD changed the ammo it uses after the coroners report found the initial gs the suspect received all expanded but failed to penetrate deep enough to cause mortal wounds, the coroner concluded that it was because of the assailants heavy muscular physique. The brand of 40 caliber ammo was not discussed but the bullet weight was and they were 135gr. JHP. Take this anecdote for what it is, but it also changed my thinking about bullet choice and choosing a heavy for caliber +p or +p+ round regardless of caliber. If anyone has anymore real world incidents please relate them there really is no magic bullet that will do it all, but again at the top is shot placement.