Hollow Point Controversy

[Saddlebag Preacher]

Vamo, your 100% correct. The idea and legal defense is to stop the threat. I'm not looking to kill, just to defend against the threat. The only 100% drop shot is cutting off the brain signals to the rest of the body anyway.

As a LEO, The next towns officer had a convience store clerk get shot late one night, which pretty much exploded his heart, and he still ran down the road for almost a quarter mile before dropping. Same happens all the time to deer hunters. CCW is to stop the threat, sometimes that doesn't require firing a shot.

 

[Buzz9mm]

...the local PD changed the ammo it uses after the coroners report found the initial gs the suspect received all expanded but failed to penetrate deep enough to cause mortal wounds...

Bingo! That right there is why I'll be using SWC from now on. Like I said earlier, I would rather have a .40 caliber bullet that hits vitals than a .70 caliber bullet that doesn't. The only handguns I'll use hollow points in from now on is a 357 Magnum and a 44 Magnum if I can ever afford either.

It's not even close to 20% either.

Yeah it is. I wasn't talking about hollow points because as I said earlier I'm never buying them again.

.355/.450=.788=22% bigger. That's a pretty big difference.

 

[velo99]

The Gomes video changed my mind about the 9mm. It has plenty of penetrattion. I use winchester 115 JHP for dc. Although shot placement was mentioned I am not going to stop pulling the trigger til the BG stops twitching . Military style, two in the chest one in the head. Rinse lather repeat.
Survival by overwhelming firepower.

 

[VAPOPO]

A handgun is a poor choice as a fighting tool and should be considered a stopgap measure ment to get you to a rifle, shotgun or safety. NOT to instantly incapacitate an aggressor. To think anything else is going against reality.

 

[Bozwell]

I love all the theorycrafting and "I heard this once so thus X caliber is king" that goes on in these posts. If you dig around, you can find stories where 9mm failed to stop the threat, .45acp failed to stop the threat, and .40 failed to stop the threat. Fact is, none of them are perfect and all of them can fail. Shot placement (and count) is what matters, so go with what you are comfortable with and that you can shoot accurately. You aren't doing yourself any favors if you sell a gun you're accurate with to buy something you're less accurate with and in a caliber you read on the interwebs is "superior".

 

[Buzz9mm]

The Gomes video changed my mind about the 9mm...

I watched it, and while he made some good points, I still have to respectively disagree. They all penetrate about the same, but the .45 is twice as heavy and has a 22% bigger diameter. If I need 17 shots to stop a BG, I was probably screwed to begin with. Maybe 1 really good slow shot would be better(head shot)? As far as hollow points, I don't think they're worth it. They cost $1+/bullet and they might not even hit vitals. Think about risk vs reward: A .45 is a 22% bigger than a 9mm and your risking not hitting vitals at all for a (possibly)expanded bullet that would be 50% bigger. I'll take my 22% increase in diameter and 50% increase in weight, be happy with it and know that I'm not hoping that a bullet does what it's supposed if my life is on the line. If FMJ is good enough for the military it's good enough for me.

 

[918v]

That's because 80% of people using them are idiots.

That's because 80% of the people shot are criminals on drugs. Everyone knows criminals are hard to kill.

 

[TimboKhan]

You can find stories of people torn up by .50 cal bullets that lived the same as you can find stories of people that died almost immediately from a .22. The human body is an amazing machine: size, weight, will to live, drugs, anger, depression and a million other factors all influence the outcome of a shot that's not perfectly placed.

Taking that further, under stress it's awfully hard to place a shot exactly, and while working on practical accuracy under conditions as close to reality as possible is obviously a very important and crucial survival skill, anyone who claims to be able to narrow it down to shot placement every time under all circumstances is delusional. That's why you shoot and shoot until the threat is stopped

My point is this: shoot whatever you feel comfortable with. Internet reviews, ballistic studies and what cops think are all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day you can find compelling arguments for or against virtually any commonly recognized self defense pistol caliber. Practically, a .45 doesn't give you any better chance than a 9mm if your not comfortable with it.

 

[Buzz9mm]

I love all the theorycrafting and "I heard this once so thus X caliber is king" that goes on in these posts. If you dig around, you can find stories where 9mm failed to stop the threat, .45acp failed to stop the threat, and .40 failed to stop the threat. Fact is, none of them are perfect and all of them can fail. Shot placement (and count) is what matters, so go with what you are comfortable with and that you can shoot accurately. You aren't doing yourself any favors if you sell a gun you're accurate with to buy something you're less accurate with and in a caliber you read on the interwebs is "superior".

Well, I'm not selling it because of what I've read on the internet. I'm selling it because of common sense and my own beliefs backed up by what I've read. I know that they have all done good and all failed at times and there is no magic bullet, but I still want a .45.

Also, another cool way I thought about looking at 9mm vs .45 is how much lead you would have with each. Since they all penetrate about the same, weight should be the only relevant factor:

9mm - 15 bullets*124gr=1860gr; 1860/230=8(same as 1911)

So basically a 9mm is like a .45 but you get twice as many shots to get all the lead fired. I almost think that having only 8 shots would make me make them count more also. If I have 15 I might just try to spray and pray(which is stupid). Plus, in one of those "only 1 shot" situations I would definitely rather have a .45.

Practically, a .45 doesn't give you any better chance than a 9mm if your not comfortable with it.

I meant to say earlier that I'm sure that I would be good with a .45. I'm used to this .40 and it has more recoil than any pistol I've ever shot (357 Magnum and 1911 included). As a matter of fact, the 9mm feels like a bb gun to me now.

 

[Bozwell]

Weight is all that matters? I guess a 230 grain bullet moving at 10 fps will do as much damage as a 230 grain bullet moving at 900 fps? Same weight, right? If you've really researched this topic, you'd know weight is not the only relevant factor.

Also, any choice to "spray and pray" is on the shooter and not the caliber. By that logic, we should all Barney Fife it and carry 1 bullet - then I guess it'd be impossible to miss.

 

[lpsharp88]

This may be a stupid idea, but if you are THAT worried about penetration, why not carry with a mixture of JHP and FMJ? Maybe alternate each type of round in the magazine that way you get one round that expands and makes a bigger hole, and the next one penetrates more and maybe hits a vital. Just my .02

 

[boomhower1820]

With modern ammunition the difference is getting extremely small. I'm sticking with 40 so I can deal with one caliber. I have to carry it at work and they supply ammo for off duty guns if the same caliber. Plus training ammo for both guns is the same which I supply.

I'll always go hollow points due to over penetration. FMJ will go through the bad guy and way way down range. HPs won't. I have full confidence my rounds will penetrate through an arm and still hit vitals. That said, I never count one a one shot stop. Training is shoot until the threat is stopped. I'm not shooting once and waiting to analyze the results.

 

[Scott9mm]

Here's the data:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/handgun-stopping-power-page-2/

 

[easyg]

....and I'm selling my .40 and getting a .45 ASAP. With ammo selection, the heavier the better, the faster the better, and the flatter the better.

From now on I'll be using wadcutters of some sort in my carry gun. They get better penetration, they do enough damage as it is that they don't need expansion, and they're heavy.

So you're getting a .45 and shooting wadcutters....

I guess you're getting a revolver, right?
Because those wadcutters are probably not going to feed so well in an autoloader.

It seems like the biggest difference between the 9mm and the .40SW or bigger is that the 9mm can't break bones(usually) and deflects easier and the bigger ones can break bones and don't deflect(as easily).

This is simply not true.
I don't know where you got this notion but it is 100% false.

 

[Buzz9mm]

This is simply not true.
I don't know where you got this notion but it is 100% false.

Have you personally seen a 9mm break bones? I got that from the medical examiner that said that's the trend that he saw at the morgue. I personally don't know, so I can't say for sure, but it makes sense to me since the .45 weighs twice as much.

Because those wadcutters are probably not going to feed so well in an autoloader.

If they don't then I'll just use flat point or regular hot FMJs.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do anything. I just thought that I would share some of the stuff I've read and why I'm probably switching back to 9mm or .45. The whole purpose of this thread was to say that I think hollow points aren't that good and using them is a risk not worth the reward.

 

[Buzz9mm]

With modern ammunition the difference is getting extremely small. I'm sticking with 40 so I can deal with one caliber. I have to carry it at work and they supply ammo for off duty guns if the same caliber. Plus training ammo for both guns is the same which I supply.

I'll always go hollow points due to over penetration. FMJ will go through the bad guy and way way down range. HPs won't. I have full confidence my rounds will penetrate through an arm and still hit vitals. That said, I never count one a one shot stop. Training is shoot until the threat is stopped. I'm not shooting once and waiting to analyze the results.

I completely agree with you. A .40 isn't far from a .45 and it has a lot more ammo, but the recoil alone is a pretty good deterrent for me. I wasn't saying that I would only fire one shot, but maybe slower controlled shots would be better than wildly unloading like most people do. That's why I was saying if your using a revolver or 1911 or something with only 6 or 8 shots, maybe you would make the ammo count more. Maybe not but I think it would make me slow down knowing I only have 6 or 8 shots instead of 15.

 

[TreeDoc]

Shoot a 9mm but from what I have researched most all handguns are under powered for reliable stopping, still a 9 is about all I can handle and shoot accurately. I have much more respect for 12 gauge 870.

 

[Buzz9mm]

Shoot a 9mm but from what I have researched most all handguns are under powered for reliable stopping, still a 9 is about all I can handle and shoot accurately. I have much more respect for 12 gauge 870.

Heck yeah, shotgun all the way for HD. If you're good with the 9mm then use it and don't worry about it. I would still suggest looking at flat point vs round nose, you'd be surprised. If not flat point then get 147gr, you want all the weight you can get. I would also strongly suggest FMJs or at least staggered magazines like the guy above was saying(fmj, hollow point, fmj, etc). I've always been a fan of hollow points, but screw that after looking into it.

 

[Dlowe167]

Havent heard that in awhile. I carry .40 and .45,the .45 is even cheaper. I still think practice is more impotant than size. I wont carry anything smaller than .40 caliber. But I do like the wadecutter idea,i may have to switch. Thanks

 

[Buzz9mm]

Havent heard that in awhile. I carry .40 and .45,the .45 is even cheaper. I still think practice is more impotant than size. I wont carry anything smaller than .40 caliber. But I do like the wadecutter idea,i may have to switch. Thanks

Yeah, no problem. Obviously make sure that whatever you get feeds reliably, because like the guy above said they might not feed well, idk. When I get the .45 though I'm still using FMJs before I'll use hollow points.

 

[Steve C]

In the vast majority of shootings hollow points are more effective than any solid bullet pistol ammo. It is stupid to make decisions on ammo type or anything else using anecdotal stories that certainly do not represent the typical results in the real world.

People use such flawed reasoning to not wear seat belts or motorcycle helmets on the premise that they heard this story where the safety item failed, caused or produce more damage regardless of the data that shows in the vast majority of situations use of such things increase the likelihood of survival with no or less injury. They instead choose to bet their life and health on the unlikely chance of being able to survive an unusual circumstance, putting themselves at higher risk of death and injury in normal circumstances. Most people would call that "being a fool" or maybe just Darwin's theory in action.

Part of the problem is that Police are trained to shoot center mass and often seem to be at a loss when it doesn't work. It would make sense to change from shooting an assailant in the chest if he's not going down and aim for the head. The reaction of a person, assailant or officer, is pretty hard to predict in a gunfight. You read of officers being killed with knifes, and .22's so no matter how well a person is armed or trained there is no sure winner, all one can do is to use what works most of the time and hope for the best.

If you want a dose of reality listen to this pod cast interview with a 30+ year Chicago Police Veteran Bob Stash who has survived 14 gunfights.

 

[Tcruse]

If you put faith in the FBI official recomendations, then the best 9, .40SW and .45ACP all perform to that standard. A look at Winchester site shows several test cases, some with barriers and some without for their Ranger lines. The 9 performs as well (better in some cases) than the other calibers. This is not an accident, the engineering is such that all of the service calibers perform with very little difference. Namely, buyers of top quality SD ammo expect it to meet the FBI specs. More powerful loads do not not stop BGs faster or better, only cause more potential for unintended side effects. After all if the bullet goes thru it is no longer effective for the desired purpose.

The other part of the conversation is that these bullets are tested out of a "full" sized gun, so if you compare a 1911 with a short barrel and a 9mm with a stardard barrel (say 4.5") then the 9 will out perform the ,45. On the other hand if you pick a very small 9mm (say 3" barrel) and compare to a 1911 with a 6" barrell the reverse is true. Also, barrel design comes into the picture, since some guns get more speed out of the same length barrel (Glock comes to mind).

 

[skywalkrNCSU]

When I saw a friend of mine who is in special forces carrying a Glock 19 I asked him what he thought about the whole 9mm vs .45 debate. His answer: "People who say 9mm doesn't get the job done haven't killed people."

That is enough for me.

 

[j1]

I do not think that you could go too far wrong with a 45. I leaves a big hole for lots to leak out. The US army used it for many, many years and it seemed to do the job for them. I also have pics of the wound shannel of the 38 & P in balloistic gelatin and it too does the job. I find it hard to believe that the
40 S & W did so poorly though, many different agencies use it.

 

[Steve H]

Interesting thread

Before I saw this thread I was sitting here thinking about selling my 9's and replacing them with 45's..............