Home Defense Loads? 12 Gauge

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Many THANKS to All.

Wow!! I was not expecting this many responses, but I really appreciate the feedback. I intend to study all of the responses to try to see if there is a consensus on the best all-around Home Defense load. Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge.B]
 
" i know from to darn many years of hunting that i can put a load of 4 bird highbrass in you at 25 feet with a partern spread of about 1 1/2"wieght 1oz and you will not know if it was buck or bird with enogh energy to pickup what doesn't blow off and set you back 5 feet plus and i will not shot once. What you will have is 60 shot+ in that very small 1 to 2" area "


I hope to heck you can get 60+ pellets in one 2" hole at 8 yards. You do know that there are 135 number 4 pellets in one ounce don't you?


4 .130" (3.30 mm) 135

Still, buck shot works better. I've been hunting since the '50s in case you're interested.

John
 
I've already said that the load you use is dependent on your house. The distance, neighbors, kids, bedrooms, walls, your physical stature (Yes, a 00 buck will kick a lot more than a 7 1/2 bird shot.) So again, i suggest each person determine their environment; test different rounds; and select the proper one.

One thing I do have to mention is about the comment that the birdshot doesn't have the energy or momentum even at 6 feet to be effective. And that you can't break the laws of physics. ACTUALLY; YOU CAN. And birdshot is quite effective. Especially at the distance you wrote of 6 feet. In all reality, it's pretty darn good in my opinion to 15-20 feet, depending on the birdshot. How can I break the law of physics? Quite simple actually.

Lets use the #4 birdshot that was mentioned earlier. 135 number 4 pellets. You're obviously using the law of physics to calculate based on the diameter and weight of each pellet; at a certain velocity; thus calculating mass and producing a set amount of energy. That is perfectly correct from a mathematical standpoint. Unfortunately, at approximately 10 feet away; the pellets (135 #4 listed above) are NOT 135 individual pellets. They are still very much in a concentrated mass. Not quite as dense as a slug, but definitely not like BIRDSHOT as you imagine. Yes, it is spreading out once it leaves the shotgun, but not as well as you think. And the #4 birdshot has the same momentum as 00 or 4 buck. Both are coming out of the shotgun at approximately the same speed.

At ranges of around 5-10 feet* the shot and wadding mass will produce a single large hole in a target. If the target happens to be a person, the wadding material will be blown into the wound tract with the pellets. The 135 pellets are actually probably more like buck shot where it's more like globs of 20 pellets each. The pellets are touching and hitting WITH each other and producing a lot more mass; thus energy; than they do as individual pellets. Believe it or not, the wadding; (Which is also holding all these pellets partially together and giving them more mass than as individual pellets); doesn't break totally free from the pellets until about 20 feet.

Granted; it is a RAPID decrease in energy from a #4 birdshot compared to 00 buck. But at 5-15 feet away, the birdshot does NOT follow the laws of physics of calculating individual pellets. At 5-15 feet away, they AREN'T individual pellets. And because they don't really start spreading out and losing their mass and thus their energy until about 15-20 feet; they are great on humans. Especially if you're worried about going through a wall.
 
No; because upon impact, you immediately have separation of the pellets. And the energy is reduced much faster than with a larger solid slug or even say 00 buck. Don't get me wrong. I never said that #4 birdshot was going to do the same amount of damage to a person at 10 feet away as 00 buck. But it definitely will provide the damage required on a person. Remember, because the body tissue is pliable and flexible, it is very unlikely for any pellets; even 00 buck; to have an exit wound. If you were close enough that it did, there wouldn't be much energy left in the pellets. However; with say sheet rock; it isn't pliable and the wall pretty much explodes. I.e. Martial artist breaking a board compared to breaking a tupperware bowl. So while at 15 feet, the birdshot will definitely blow one hell of a hole through the sheetrock wall; assuming a person wasn't literally on the other side of the wall laying in a bed; the pellets will lose their concentration and therefor their mass. I probably wouldn't want to be on the other side of a sheet rock wall at 15 feet from a #4 birdshot blast; but I'd definitely prefer that than a 00 buck. And any personal damage, more than likely wouldn't be life threatening.

Again; each house, person, and situation is unique. For me; I prefer 4 buck shot. The furthest shot in my house is about 30-35 feet. Birdshot wouldn't be effective enough at that range. 75% of my house is 15-20 feet and birdshot would be fine. But if they are in the other 25% of my house, it wouldn't be effective. Plus; my house is all brick. So unless I shot through a windows, there really wouldn't be any collateral damage. Same with the bedrooms.

And, having said all that, a shotgun would only be my #1 choice for home defense if I was prepared for the intruder. I.e. If I was anticipating or saw someone outside trying to get in. I believe a shotgun is a very effective weapon for home defense, but you have to strategically be able to use it. Not every scenario or situation is right for it. If it's 3am and I hear a window break or a noise down stairs, etc... I will more than likely grab my 45acp pistol. It's dark. I want to use walls, furniture, etc... as a blind. I would probably be waiting for the BG to come to me. With a shotgun, I'd be prepared for the intruder. Each house is different. Each room is different. Each person is different.
 
christcorp, so you're saying every single penetration test I've ever seen or done (gelatin, covered gelatin, wall board, water jug etc.) with bird shot has not accurately reflected what would happen if you shot a person? Why can you shoot a water jug from 6 feet away with bird shot and have most of the pellets not exit? The proximity of the pellets to each other does not give them any more ability to penetrate than if they are farther apart. Objects do not gain mass and objects in motion do not gain speed simply by being near each other.

And that you can't break the laws of physics. ACTUALLY; YOU CAN.
No...no you can't.

And birdshot is quite effective. Especially at the distance you wrote of 6 feet. In all reality, it's pretty darn good in my opinion to 15-20 feet, depending on the birdshot.
So...tell me how you've *tested* this. I've shot an extremely wide variety of test mediums with various bird and buck shots, and there is just flat out no comparison in penetration, no matter if the distance is a few feet.

es, it is spreading out once it leaves the shotgun, but not as well as you think.
I don't think. I know exactly how much it's spreading--from any of my shotguns anyway.

The pellets are touching and hitting WITH each other and producing a lot more mass; thus energy; than they do as individual pellets.
:scrutiny:
 
"Yes, a 00 buck will kick a lot more than a 7 1/2 bird shot."

It depends, but I wouldn't say a lot more, especially if looking at the typically recommended low recoil tactical loads.

If the payloads weigh the same and the velocity is the same, well, they do kick the same. And yes, I was a physics major many decades ago. Equal and opposite reactions and all that.

For instance, compare:

00 Buck at 8 pellets per ounce going 1325 fps (9 pellets weigh a little more and go a little slower)

and something I happen to own...

Winchester AA Target Loads Heavy Target 12ga 2 3/4in 3dram 1 1/8oz. Three dram loads run in the 1250+ fps range.


John
 
"about birdshot clumping together"

I cut open a bunch of old steel waterfowl shells ten or so years ago. The pellets were definitely clumped together - rusted as solid as rust would allow. Dang saltwater, and they were name brand "waterproof" shells too.

I wonder if they'd powder apart on impact. I considered them for HD slugs for about 2 seconds, but they were 3" high velocity and pretty pitiful looking.

John
 
I think what folks are envisioning with birdshot, for which I don't really blame them, is:

First 'plane' of shot hits, begins to slow down.
BEFORE it stops moving, the second 'plane' of shot, immediately behind, plows into it, now we have additive masses and movements.
And so on through the length of the shot column.

I've no idea whether nor to what extent this holds water, but I think it's what people are 'seeing'.

As for the nuclear shell, no problem protecting innocents. If you're smart enough to invent the shell then protecting whomever you like is childs play.
 
Let me first reiterate. I never said a #4 birdshot was going to be equal to 00 buck.

Next; the velocity is the same. Look at the specs, and you will find that generally speaking; # 7 1/2; #4; #2; BB; and 00 Buck are all traveling at the same velocity. 2 3/4 - 3" will go around 1300-1500 fps. Obviously different manufacturers are different.

As for physics; at 10 feet away; using #4 buck shot; you are not being hit with 135 individual pellets. But again; I am not arguing the point that 00 isn't better. It most definitely is. On average; 00 buck will penetrate around 22". While #4 bird shot will only penetrate about 7". I've also said that I prefer #4 buck. I think it's the best all around. Through the sheet rock test, #4 will go through 6 sheets and get stopped at the 7th. 00 buck usually makes it through 7 and gets stopped at 8. #4 bird shot is usually at the 2nd and 3rd piece of sheet rock. I've personally tested with gelatin. At the initial point of impact (Testing at 10 feet); the entrance hole of #4 bird and 00 buck, is about the same. Wad and all, you're getting hit with pretty much the same amount, mass, and energy from both shells. However; upon impact and entrance, the #4 bird shot will break up, slow down, and lose energy faster than the 00 buck. Obviously because it is made up of more individual and smaller pellets. But the initial impact is pretty much the same. And with a typical adult torso being less than 20", a lot of stopping power can be done with some of the large birdshot #4 at close range. +/- 15 feet. Again; no argument that 00 is better. It is. #4 bird however can be quite effective. And for me, 4 buck seems the best compromise.
 
Not quite, nature works on a path of least resistance model. Basically, nature is inherently lazy and wants to do as little as possible if it can help it.

Thus with shot, when the first plane hits and slows down, the second plane will hit the first plane, and seeing as these shot pellets are non magnetic and there is no force forcing them to clump together, will then begin sliding around (since that requires a lower impulse) the first set of pellets and slightly enlarging the depth of the first plane. The next plane will hit the second plane and so on and so forth.

The best analogy to shot is to think of it like a liquid. (1 molecule of water = 1 pellet of shot) There's quite a few quanta of shot, and each shot moves independent of another. There is no force that is holding them in a single rigid column. Thus, just like a stream of water, when it hits something solid fans out seeking the path of least resistance, so will shot. The path of least resistance is invariably to spread out side to side rather then push farther in and exert pressure on the already present, hard, and slow shot that has already stopped in place. Thus, once the first few planes penetrate as far as they will they form a rigid surface that the other pellets strike and skid sideways, producing a large shallow wound.

As for the rusted together pellets, I doubt they would do much better. Think of bonded/frangable rifled ammo. Sure it looks solid enough when its in the pressed state, but upon hitting a hard or semi-hard object it splinters back into its component powder and spreads out sideways in the path of least resistance. Think of it as #1000+ shot, since each grain of it can be thought of as an individual pellet. Thus, once again a wound is wide, shallow, and not overly effective.
 
I recently acquired a Mossy 590 for HD. I shot it Yesterday for the first time, and took 3 types of 00 Buck with me. All Low Recoil, all shot at 10 yds, Remington, Fiocchi & Federal.

Remington RL12BK00 - 3.5 inch pattern
Fiocchi 12LE00BK - 5.5 inch pattern
Federal LE133 00 - 1.2 inch pattern
I also took some Estate 7.5 Birdshot with me. The pattern was bigger than the target.

I consider any of the 00 Buck acceptable.

I'm no expert, but IMHO, unles you are literally face to face with the Bad Guy, birdshot will only make him/her mad.

My 2¢.

Gary G
 
And with a typical adult torso being less than 20", a lot of stopping power can be done with some of the large birdshot #4 at close range. +/- 15 feet.

If bird shot could penetrate as far in a body as it does in gelatin I'd be a lot closer to accepting it. In order to get equal penetration on a BG he'd have to be wearing a T-shirt or less, and have no rib cage or sternum or any other of the numerous parts of the human body that are much tougher to penetrate than bare gelatin. And that's not even getting into denim, leather, or even limbs getting in the way of your shot. 12" of penetration in bare gelatin isn't cited as a minimum or a goal because 12" of penetration are needed in a human body, it's cited due to all the things that can get between your muzzle and their vitals.
 
Exactly King. I too have shots in my house up to 30 feet. That's why I use 4 buck. I could use 00 buck, but I think it's almost a wash. I use 3" magnum 4 buck, so there's more pellets and a bit more speed. 00 would probably do better, but I like the 4 buck. But I think that the person who lives in an apartment; cheap walls; lots of neighbors left, right, up, and down; kids; etc... So good #2-#4 turkey shot at less than 15 feet would be quite effective. I don't think it would just piss someone off. Here's some picks of the entrance through clothing with birdshot.

Here's a pic of birdshot at 5 feet:
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/spatc.jpg

Here's a pic of birdshot at around 5-10 feet:
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/990900135.jpg

Here' another at 15-20 feet. You can see how the wadding has about left and a few sparse pellets leave the mass.
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/99080132.jpg

And here's one at 28 feet with no more wadding and the pellets spreading.
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/spat28.jpg
 
"As for physics;"

You've made at least one major mistake so far. Do I need to check the rest of your assumptions/calculations?

"(Yes, a 00 buck will kick a lot more than a 7 1/2 bird shot.)"
 
I know this subject has been discussed a lot before and I think I posted a reply at least once. Since I live out in the country with no neighbors closer than 1/2 mile I don't have to worry about accidents involving them. I use #4 buck followed by 00 followed by slugs in a 12 ga. pump that holds 6+1. If I can't get to the 12 ga. we have two 20 ga. which are now set up similarly. The 20s are easier for the women to use and still pack a pretty mean wallop.
 
I use 2 3/4" OO buckshot for my home defense shotguns. Maximum range in my house would be 20 yards most places 10 - 15 yards.

We have no kids and the neighbors are located a fair distance as our lots are large.

I prefer OO buckshot as it's superior penetration will stop the BG more quickly than the shallow <5" wounds produced by birdshot.

It's a good idea to pattern test your shotguns/loads at the ranges that you think that they might be used at to determine the pellet spread and where the pattern is impacting with respect to your POA.

Here's how my coachgun patterns at 5 and 15 yards with OO buck. left barrel, left target etc. POA is the centre of the target.

IMG_5506e.jpg

IMG_5500e.jpg
 
I've always kept my HD shotguns loaded with High Brass #4 bird, which has always worked really well for any home-defense I've done: rabid racoons and skunks, and the occasional copperhead.

Now that I've been eduemacated here at THR, I bought me a bunch of 00 buck, in both full-power 2-3/4 and "Managed Recoil". Right now, the shotguns still have the #4 in them though. :rolleyes:

I'm in the sticks, so my shotgun needs may be atypical. :D

Les
 
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