Home defense long gun - which and why

Which home defense long gun and why?

  • Mossberg 12 ga. 18 inch pump gun

    Votes: 207 63.1%
  • AR 15 short bbl

    Votes: 56 17.1%
  • AK 47 Romanian

    Votes: 12 3.7%
  • Yugo SKS

    Votes: 11 3.4%
  • Kel-tec Sub2000 9mm fed by Glock mags

    Votes: 5 1.5%
  • M1 Garand

    Votes: 3 0.9%
  • M1 carbine

    Votes: 21 6.4%
  • Don't do it... you gotta use a handgun

    Votes: 13 4.0%

  • Total voters
    328
  • Poll closed .
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i voted a yugo.
its my HD long gun, if the pistols arent enuff.

I keep it with a folding stock for easier movement. I dont need 30rd mags either, I can hit what I shoot, and a well placed 7.62 x 39 wont normally let somone back up...

as for politics of such a weapon for HD... I dont care if a hypothetical jury seen it as bad and I got time.. so long as my family is safe!


ip.
 

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Ok. The assumptions many have made about lightly armed attackers, and them being few in numbers as well others saying birdshot is viable for home defense: these are all assumptions. Cut to the chase, some one is in YOUR HOME, where they don't belong, assuming they are few in numbers, poorly trained, not wearing body armor of some sort and that they are gonna run at the sound of shotgun chambering a shell, that they are not organized or motivated, etc all of these are DANGEROUS assumptions = Decreasing your odds of coming away from the encounter alive and keeping your family safe from harm. You might be thinking, "come on, the chances that they are wearing some kind of bullet resistent vest or armor or something is ridiculous". Great, you just took up the same rationale as the sheeple who think YOU are being "ridiculous" for choosing to arm yourself to defend your family in your home or out in the world. Plan for the worst, pray for the best.

Next, assuming that your 1st shot with a shotgun is going to hit its mark at 3:34am is a pretty high assumption (it is of some comfort to know that you can have 29 more opportunities to stop the attacker). Lump that assumption with the slow recovery/follow up shot time with a shotgun and you are decreasing your odds of coming thru this situation unharmed. And in the slow reload time if you expend your 6+1, or 7+1, or 2 in some peoples cases, and again you are decreasing your chances of survival as well as endangering your family as you have not stopped the threat and they are still moving about in YOUR HOME while you try and find some more shells. How many extra shells do you keep as reloads on hand and accessible? I bet many are assuming on getting the job done with whats in the shotgun...

To the folks that say that our soldiers are only using 5.56x45mm weapons platforms, (M16/M4) because that is what is issued to them, I disagree. Many of our brave troops carry shotguns in combat, as breaching tools. They don't employ their shotguns as a primary weapon because they are not as effective as their carbines. They use the M16/M4's because they work well for their intended purpose. They are light, accurate, and pound for pound you can carry alot more ammo than compared to .30 class weapons. Clearing a room in Tikrit can be compared to clearing your living room, it is all about tactics. Sure you probably don't own flashbangs, frags, and your not supported by 3 or more buddies, but the same theories apply, use surpise when possible, split the pie, don't get tunnel vision, and fast is slow-slow is fast for shot placement.

I own shotguns and swiss army knives and I agree with the analogy of them being similiar type tools. Swiss army knives are great at nothing but are better than not having anything at all for tools. They are horrible for whittling, horrendous as a screwdriver, painful for use as a file, etc, but they can get the job done but not very effectively or efficiently. If I am defending my families lives (which is the highest honor), I don't want to use a tool for defense that is equivalant to the Swiss Army knife, the shotgun. I want to use the sharpest blade, something capable of precision, and with just enough heft to its mass to be made for the task at hand. Likewise, if all you have is a swiss army knife (shotgun), it is surely better than harsh words and balled up fists at getting the job done.

Again, concealability is moot for HOME defense, you are at home, if a shifty car comes onto your driveway, why are going outside to investigate? You loose all elements of surprise, and you are choosing the shifty cars drivers place for a possible confrontation. Wait inside and observe, turn on exterior lighting, and if something is amiss and needs reaction by you the homeowner, concealabilty is moot. I cannot think of an example right now, but if a situation warranted you going outside and needing a firearm, why conceal it if you need right then. Plus outside the engagement distances are increased compared to in-the-home distances, this puts a minus in the shotguns category because with greater distance, the less effective your shot placement is going to be (which is nothing if the projectiles don't actually hit something vital, ie it is all about shot placement and not all about 4,000 lbs of energy). Bottom line, Shotguns loaded for home defense are not as reliable as a carbine at getting appropriate shot placement as engagement distances increase. Sure you could use slugs and get some more distance, but now you have to unload your buck and upload your slugs = time lost, advantage gone, and you assumption has decreased your chances of surviving.

And to the double barrel shotgun post, :uhoh: , I hope you at least have a cap and ball revolver to follow up your 18th century technology SxS. At least upgrade get a pump action Maverick or a used Ithaca M37 with some more capacity. Taking your life and your families life in the context of an assumption that 2 shells of buckshot is all your ever gonna need is taking a risk that is un-necessary.

I am glad that this site is having this dialogue and debate. Home defense is important and I am glad that this topic is being discussed.
I am not a shotgun hater(I have a passion for collecting Ithaca Model 37 featherweight shotguns), nor do I purport to be a die hard "The AR15 is the best rifle in the world" type person. I enjoy shooting my Mausers as much, if not at times, more than my AR's. I shoot trap and skeet when I can find the time, and I participate in CMP rifle matches and am looking forward to the Appleseed shoot in Van Etten, NY in 2.5 week. :)
 
I voted for the KT sub-2000 in 9mm. Many people chooses pistols because they are easily portable and potent enough to do the job with good placement. HD is the perfect assignment for a pistol caliber carbine in a semi-auto caliber, IMO.

I was a diehard fan of shotguns for HD until I read The Book of Two Guns by Tiger McKee. He makes a convincing argument for a SG only being appropriate for HD use after much specialized training.

IIRC, his main points are.....

-reloading sequence requires multiple fine motor skills and both hands
-when using generally accepted ammunition (slugs and buck) the chances of overpenetration are very real
-limited capacity
-effective operation of the most common version (pump) requires the use of both hands all the time

I still use one for now, but I have given serious thought to selling my pumpgun and getting a good rifle.

W
 
MHBushmaster, you definitely have a burr under your saddle.

Next, assuming that your 1st shot with a shotgun is going to hit its mark at 3:34am is a pretty high assumption (it is of some comfort to know that you can have 29 more opportunities to stop the attacker).

Ok, so you don't think you're gonna get a COM hit on the badguy with the first round of your AR? (Hint, use the sights) So, which round's gonna do the job? #15, #29? Pity the poor slob who has a revolver in his nightstand, then, too. From the way you put it, he's guaranteed to die for entering the fight without a bazillion rounds available. NOTE: Your marksmanship skills and plan of action may dictate you want 30 rounds. That doesn't, and shouldn't, mean everybody else does, or will. I'd wager the police reports show a broad spectrum of what worked and what didn't.

I've got an AK in the corner, loaded with Winchester 123gr SP rounds, sitting #2 in the G-98 HD layered-defense stack. #1 is my USMC 870Mk1, it carries 8 rounds of full-brass 00 buckshot. Where the shotgun's front sight is pointed, that's where a tight pattern of 9 pellets of 0.33" diameter are going at 1450fps, giving me 8 extra chances of causing the bad guy to leak badly and generally stop doing Bad Things to me and mine before I rack the slide and send 7 additional batches of 9 towards the attacker. That's 72 pissed-off pellets looking to shut down an aggressor who decided to head towards the master bedroom. Will they "overpenetrate" and go through drywall? Hell, yes! As stated before in this thread, and demonstrated in tests, so will any round deemed powerful enough for HD, be it SG, Rifle, or Pistol - duh. It would be a good idea, then, to not miss the bad guy, be it with a SG w/8 rounds, Rifle w/30 rounds, or pistol/revolver. However, I ain't clearing hovels in Tikrit with an M4, I'm stopping an attack on my person. I'm not doing a sector-by-sector clearance of the house, cutting the pie, duct-taping trauma plates to my back, or doing a sweep. There IS a difference, and the definition of One True Sword varies from person to person based on what works for them, albeit some proselytize it more than others. BA/UU/R is the better strategy, regardless of platform.

Bottom Line: There's grannies who have been recently recorded as ventilating an intruder with a shot or two from a dusty old .38 revolver pulled out of the sock drawer. Their minds were in the fight, and I'm much more impressed with their success than any defensive rifle/shotgun/handgun pissing contest on an online internet forum. :scrutiny:
 
I'm sorry anyone took me seriously about the double barrel shotgun, I have two longuns an 1894s and a HP995, the HP is at my bedside along with a 9mm kel-tec P-11, both are loaded with Glaser ammo, the ammo the FBI found was most likely to kill the bad guy and least likely to harm your neighbors.
 
G-98 said:
Where the shotgun's front sight is pointed, that's where a tight pattern of 9 pellets of 0.33" diameter are going at 1450fps, giving me 8 extra chances of causing the bad guy to leak badly and generally stop doing Bad Things to me and mine before I rack the slide and send 7 additional batches of 9 towards the attacker. That's 72 pissed-off pellets looking to shut down an aggressor who decided to head towards the master bedroom.

<snippage>

I'm much more impressed with [the grannies] success than any defensive rifle/shotgun/handgun pissing contest on an online internet forum.
Say, amen?
 
I voted 12 ga shotgun.HD is just that.Up close so I don't need long range benefits from some of the other choices.YMMV.tom.:cool:
 
I voted 12 ga, though I have a Rem870 with a 20" barrel.

It is stocked with slugs and 00buck of the 2 3/4" variety.


Back up to the shotgun is my Vector AK, 7.62x39. One partially loaded 30 round mag (BG's guess as to how many :D ), 123gr full metal jacket.


Back up to long guns, One GP100 w/ 6 rounds 158gr Rem SJHP (.357mag), and one SP101 w/ 5 rounds 158gr Rem LHP (.38spl +p)
 
Quote:
gbpc said:
Shotgun just the sound of "pumping a round in" will make a BG pee his pants.
Their advice to me on home defense is there is nothing better at making someone (BG) reconsider exactly why he's doing what he's doing quite like a "click click" of a shotgun being pumped.
...And generally that's enough to scare some reality into him, and hopefully make him turn around and RUN away.

Case in point at this guy's blog.

Apparently the sound of a pump shotgun makes goblins remember somewwhere else they want to be more cuz when I looked over at the window that fellow was backing down my drive like somebody set his d*ck afire.
 
I would say that your friend should find the firearm that HE feels would best work for him. ANY time you fire ANY shot there is ALWAYS the possibility of a bullet, slug or buckshot penetrating a bad guy and then striking another person out beyond them. Which ever firearm that he feels best about is the one that he should practice with until:
a. He COMFORTABLY has his accuracy of fire, at different distances, developed to a fine edge and,
b. He needs to practice, practice and practice some more even once he's comfortable with his firearm and,
c. He should practice switching from one firearm to another firearm over and over just in case something goes south on him during an emergency and,
d. If possible he should practice shooting in different kinds of light to prepare himself for shooting in the daytime, at dusk and at night.
Once your friend has mastered his weapon of choice, he should then practice with other weapons so that he develops a variety of choices for himself. If his shotgun breaks, then he KNOWS, in advance, that he WILL be able to use his .223/5.56 rifle to defend his home or ruin a bad guy's day because he's thought ahead, practiced and developed his needed skill for the bad times.
 
If an attacker enters my house, he is getting 00 buckshot as a welcoming gift. I voted shotgun and practice what I preach.
 
As for using shotguns in military house clearing operations, gunwriter Jan Libourel wrote an interesting piece in a past issue of GUN WORLD magazine. He wrote that the late Rex Applegate had once told him that towards the end of WWII that he had been given the task of clearing fanatical Nazi holdouts from buildings in towns that the allies had taken. He said that they could have had any weapon they wanted for that task, and that they overwhelmingly chose pump shotguns using 00 buck.
 
I voted Shotgun. I have many weapons...from the M1 Garand down to the .380 P3AT. If, however, I am going to defend my Home...give me my Mossberg 590 and 00 low recoil buckshot.
 
I have kept an SKS for home defense for a long time. The reason is that I can keep it unloaded, and thus less of a risk should young children or a careless adult pick it up, yet I can load it lightning fast with a stripper clip of ten rounds should the need arise.
 
I'd have to agree with my estemed coleuges who chose a 12 guage shotgun with #4-#0 shot. Most efective is the racking of the round. anyone who sticks around to see what's comming next is a fool.

There's nothing like a short shotgun loaded with #4 Buck for HD.

+1
 
I'd choose the 12 gauge if the person was going to actually practice with it quite a bit.

It seems that dove and other bird hunters added to the number of trap and skeet shooters is going to outnumber the number of tactical military style rifle shooters by quite a bit. So hopefully they'll practice more and be a little bit more familiar with a shotgun than they would with a military style semi-auto rifle. It's completely possible to miss with a shotgun at close range, but most people tend to shoot sporting firearms much more and so it seems much more likely that they'll get good hits even when under stress.

A semi-auto shotgun that soaks up some of the recoil might also be a good weapon for a woman or a teenager. That way they'll instantly have a second, third, fourth and fifth shot (or possibly even more) as quick as they can sqeeze the trigger and they won't have to give away their position by racking the slide. I know that some people count on the noise of a shotgun being racked to scare someone off, but some burglars might respond to the sound of a shotgun being racked by shooting where they think that the sound came from instead of running away the way that the person expects and thinks that they would. I'd prefer to shoot the burglar instead of trying to scare them with a sound if they've already broken into my house and if I believe that they're about to attack me.

#4 buck would be my load of choice.
 
The Box of Bs......I will stick to real world and actual facts and reports from depts and ME's and my own experiences,

I choose the AR
Repeate hit capability
low recoil.
ease of one handed operation
less penetraion (actual documented reports and testing in homes and shootings.
very good at ending life functions.


here is some more reading

http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=page&page=223articles
 
My humble 1/50th of $1 . . . .

First up (As it is the "Bedside Table Companion") is the Springfield 'GI-45'. Next I have the Maverick 88 with #4Buck. If I run those both dry, then either it is TEOTWAWKI, and/or said miscreants are Body Armored. Then I pick up the Most Serious Artillery...The US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known As "The Garand".
 
HD = HOME defense. Not a long-range rifle defense situation.

S&W Model 586 on nightstand; Mossberg 500A 12 GA. pump with #4 buck in the corner.

Oh yeah, a couple of brass-chuckers in the closet (1911A1 and S&W 5946).
 
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