Home Defense With Rubber Buck And Other "Non-Lethal" ammo

[Robocop]

"The first shot in my 870 is a slug. So, I just I work DOWN to 00 buck".

I feel so inadequate with opening up with either a 55gr 5.56mm, or a 165gr. .40 S&W.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I have the same feelings as the OP, that I would like to avoid taking a person's life if at all possible. However, since I value my own life a lot too, I use regular ammunition.

So the police are going to go lighter on you when you kill a person in your living room with 2 of your DVDs in his pocket ?

You shouldn't be house clearing in the first place!

No, I am not pro life,

That's a shame.

 

[Boba Fett]

I feel the same way, that it is inappropriate to shoot someone over property.

Really? Would you please post your address and a list of your property for us?

But I dont think it appropriate to kill somone over a handfull of DVD's.

Then they should have committed their theft using the internet.

Last time I checked, criminals haven't been wearing florescent T-Shirts that say, "I'm only here for the DVDs."

If someone breaks into my house and all they want to do is steal my nail clippers, they get the same treatment as the guy who wants to rape and murder.

 

[Titan6]

Curious Early post.....

1.) I would never want to take someones life if a more reasonable deterrent /alternative would be effective at getting someone out of my home or incapacitating them enough for a quick set of cable ties on the wrists and feet.

This is a fantasy. Anyone breaking into your house when you are home is not thinking that he will surrender. He is thinking that he will overpower the occupants and take what he wants. If that does not work out than escape by any means possible. If there was some kind of effective way to stop someone safely the police would already be using it. They have been working on this for years without truly effective results. Your best bet being Taser, if they are legal in your area and your next best bet being a club. But either still runs the risk of killing your attacker.

2.) Sheet Rock offers little or no protection to my kids sleeping in the next room when you are shooting at a criminal in a dark and can not guarantee that every one of the 15 pellets of lead 00 buck hit their mark.

Is that not truth.... Of course if you can show me a single defensive shooting with a shotgun that resulted in the person in the next room being shot I would be real interested to hear about it. Not my "sister's, friend's, cousin" type case but an actual documented case. And not one involving the police either. A real documented HD/ SD shooting.

3.) Rubber buck is still lethal at a few yards away.

How far are you going to shoot in your house anyway? In my house the maximum distance is 15 yards but I imagine my house is quite different than most people's.

4. You can shoot the perp in the ass while he is leaving your house to give him a good reminder that its not such a good idea to go into someones house.

Hmmm, shooting at a fleeing intruder. Maybe in a castle doctrine state... maybe. Otherwise sounds like a "go to prison for assault" scenario.

So the police are going to go lighter on you when you kill a person in your living room with 2 of your DVDs in his pocket ?

I would not count on it. But it depends upon whether or not you live in a free state.

However here in wisconsin, our laws state that is lawfull to use lethal force against a person that enters your residence with intent to due harm to you or your family. However it is not lawful to use lethal force to prevent loss of property even if said person is in your home.

Surprisingly statistics show that most criminals are dishonest. How exactly you would determine with any degree of certainty that the man is there for your DVDs and silver and not there for you is one for the sages. If you figure it out please post something I am real curious.

It is even worse now a days when a mojority of break ins are done by 15 year old thrill seekers with mothers that will take every penny from you for killing their baby

I hear this a lot in internet forums. Never seen it in real life.

I guess my only option is to shoot first, deal with going to jail for the rest of my life or a long time for using excessive deadly force, or taking a knife out of the kitchen and putting it in the perps hand saying that that alone was enough intent to cause my family harm.

You must think that prison is not so bad with some of the things you post. Since this is a criminal act and we don't discuss criminal acts there you are on your own. Good luck with that.

As I said, the 2nd or 3rd round would be real ammo. And after being shot 2x with rubber buck he still feels the need to come at me, then I guess that shows his intent.

Hopefully for the sake of your family he is not on crystal meth and felt the first two rounds and does not now have your gun with real ammo in it.

I guess the main deal here on the question in the first place is having non lethal ammo may save my arse from the law on using excessive lethal force since my ammo selection wasnt lethal to begin with.

A lot of people have already posted why this is wrong.

 

[Titan6]

The first shot in my 870 is a slug. So, I just I work DOWN to 00 buck.

All slugs all the time. A solid one ounce of lead/ 1600 fps+ is really untouchable at close range by anything but some of the larger more powerful rifle rounds. I say it is the closest thing to a "magic bullet" that there is. A center mass hit at close range on an unarmored target is very likely to result in a one shot stop. Send two and the odds are well in your favor...

 

[JWarren]

Kinda what I was thinking, Titan.

Even today, I was looking at a .458 SOCOM upper for my AR, but after looking at $47.95 for 20 rounds of factory at Midway, it is kinda hard to justify it beyond 12 gauge slugs.

They are still cheap at Walmart, and I can't imagine not being able to get them.


-- John

 

[Sato Ord]

I'm not going to kill someone over property, that's my right, too. If I came home and caught someone leaving with my computer under his arm, oh well, that's what homeowner's insurance is for. I've had to take someone's life, it ain't something I want to do again if there is any way to avoid it.

That all being said, if some guy breaks into my house in the middle of the night, or bashes his way in during the earlier hours, he's dead. No rubber bullets, no BS, just three loads of double ought buck followed by fifteen rounds of .40 cal if it's needed. If the 100lb dog barking at him isn't enough to deter him, I don't see where me wasting my breath on harsh language is going to make much difference.

As for knocking him down and using zip ties to hold him, I don't carry a badge, arresting him is not my responsibility. If you want to play cop, go for it, I'm concerned with the lives of my family and myself, not putting the guy in jail.

I'm not worried about thin walls either. I know my house, and I know where the muzzle is pointing.

Law suit because it was some fifteen year old kid. Sorry, I live in Florida, down here the law specifically states that neither the perpetrator nor his heirs may profit from by either law suit or selling the movie rights to the story, or any other such nonsense if the person was injured or killed while committing a felony. Even if that wasn't in place I'll be damned if I'd pay the suit to someone who broke into my house and endangered my family. I'd give all of my possessions to a trusted friend and move out of state first.

Nope, when I grab for my shotgun, it's serious and I'm not playing with "non-lethal" rounds. If I don't think the situation warrants lethal force I've already dialed 911, so I'll just wait for the police to show up; they should be along in a half hour or so.

 

[Titan6]

Even today, I was looking at a .458 SOCOM upper for my AR, but after looking at $47.95 for 20 rounds of factory at Midway, it is kinda hard to justify it beyond 12 gauge slugs.

I did too! I liked the idea of using .223 mags but could not see the advantage other then the training and muscle memory I have built up on the AR gives a slight advantage... maybe.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Mind providing a citation for that one?

I don't remember the TV show from a few years back (male model/spy, Jennifer o'Neil played the photographer), but he offed himself by shooting himself with a BLANK from a set prop .38.

At 10 feet or so from a 12 guage? The wad alone would penetrate and the expanding gasses would make a nice hole. Anything else of any mass getting flung in your direction is just gravy.

 

[JWarren]

Titan wrote:

I did too! I liked the idea of using .223 mags but could not see the advantage other then the training and muscle memory I have built up on the AR gives a slight advantage... maybe.

We were thinking on the EXACT same lines-- even down to the using standard, unmodified magazines in the 458, as opposed to the 450 Bushmaster and 50 Beowulf, it seems!

Like you said, the advantages would be small, and the cost great-- as well as extremely limited ammunition availablity.

Besides, the way ammo prices are going, I think I may get more use out of a .22 RF upper! LOL


-- John

 

[The Deer Hunter]

If I ever had a non lethal load in my shotgun, it would be the first round. The next 3-4 rounds would be 1 oz. Brenekke slugs.

I wouldn't want to kill someone either. If someone is still in my house after shooting a load of anything that doesn't instantly kill or incapacitate them, then they clearly don't get the idea that I want them gone, and will thusly get shot with an ounce of lead.

So basically, the idea isn't bad. It could foul up though, if the intruder has a gun aimed at you.

By the way, 00 buck isn't recommended for home defense precisely because it will penetrate sheetrock. #4 to 6 is preferred as two layers of rock will substantially capture most pellets. Having #4 - a common pheasant load - at hand is just a hunting round. 00 Buck, however, is a known antipersonnel load, not a deer hunting round, and will get a lot of scrutiny in a courtroom. Since it won't do a better job, and endangers innocent family, I won't use it.

Birdshot? You have to be kidding me. I haven't shot anyone, but I have read several articles about people who have been shot with birdshot at close range and have lived. I don't mean to argue about something I have no firsthand experience with, but it doesn't make any sense trying to kill something with a shotgun load that can't go through a couple layers of drywall.

My pellet gun can go through two layers of 5/8" Sheetrock that have been plastered and papered. When we shoot trap on wobble, sometimes guys hit the house itself, with birdshot, and it only leaves tiny little dents.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but birdshot just isn't the thing to use. I have to say though, if I got shot with anything once and lived, you better beleive I would be far away from there very fast.

All slugs all the time. A solid one ounce of lead/ 1600 fps+ is really untouchable at close range by anything but some of the larger more powerful rifle rounds. I say it is the closest thing to a "magic bullet" that there is. A center mass hit at close range on an unarmored target is very likely to result in a one shot stop. Send two and the odds are well in your favor...

I cant imagine the kind of person who could take a slug to center mass and exist...
Slugs for me, too.

 

[kingpin008]

I don't remember the TV show from a few years back (male model/spy, Jennifer o'Neil played the photographer), but he offed himself by shooting himself with a BLANK from a set prop .38.

At 10 feet or so from a 12 guage? The wad alone would penetrate and the expanding gasses would make a nice hole. Anything else of any mass getting flung in your direction is just gravy.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't prove your original statement. I've personally known a guy who took a slug to the back from about ten or fifteen feet and lived.

Granted, he's missing a HUGE chunk of muscle and some intestine, but he's still alive and gets around pretty damn well.

There was also a clip on one of those "worlds wildest" type videos where a dude went nuts in a grocery store with a shotgun. He hit a kid in the arm and chest, at virtually contact distances (one of the shots was delivered when the kid was on the ground and the shooter was standing over him) and he lived.

Which is my point - while it is extremely likely that one will be killed when shot at such distances with a shotgun, in no way is it a guarantee. To say as much can be as harmful to the truth of self defense as those idiots who continually pass along the old chestnut of "just the sound of a shotgun being racked will scare the goblins so bad they'll stop the attack". It's just not true, and will only serve as more bad info for people who want to learn to wade through.

 

[Mello]

Wisconsin_Trap,

Rubber buck shot does not sound like a viable solution for home defense. The ranges which you would fire at an intruder would be so short as to make certain that the buck shot was lethal. You would get less penetration through sheetrock though with rubber versus lead buck shot.

Maybe you should experiment.
Build some 16" x 16" sheet rock "walls" with studs. Take a dozen to the range and shoot with buckshot and bird shot at various ranges. Try shooting through 2, 3 or 4 at a time.

I'm pretty sure that even an ounce of 6 birdshot will go through two or three 1/2" sheet rock boards at 10 feet

 

[jakemccoy]

1 Under the law, it is still considered to be using lethal force.

2 By using ammunition that you think and claim is less lethal, and claiming you did so because you did not think the situation rose to the level of requiring lethal force means you will get torn up by any opposing attorney. Hard to defend shooting someone that you didn't think needed lethal force to stop.

3 This ammo, being of a lower power, is less likely to stop the person who needed shooting. Leaves you open to the possibility of the BG putting a knife or bullet into you after being hit by pellets.

4 Remember that when LEOs use less lethal devices, they usually have backup standing right next to them, with a pistol, shotgun, or rifle, making sure that if the BG needs shooting, that option is immediately available.

I agree.

As I said, the 2nd or 3rd round would be real ammo. And after being shot 2x with rubber buck he still feels the need to come at me, then I guess that shows his intent.

I guess the main deal here on the question in the first place is having non lethal ammo may save my arse from the law on using excessive lethal force since my ammo selection wasnt lethal to begin with.

You would likely find the opposite effect in court. If you don't think your life is in danger, then don't shoot. If you can't make that tough decision, then you shouldn't be fooling around with guns for defense. Remember that "non-lethal" ammo is still considered to be lethal force under the law. If you load with "non-lethal" ammo, you admit that you're planning to use lethal force when you think your life may NOT be in danger. You leave yourself wide open for the prosecution.

 

[browningguy]

I use what will put them down, end of story. I'm not interested in making an impression on them, just putting them down so they are no longer a threat. That mean 00 buck, 60 gr. SP's in a .223, or 165 JHP's in a .40.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Ok, I didn't to go so off subject.

What is my opinion on lethal ammo?

I am against it. If someone is in my house, they are up to way no good and I'm not having any of it. It doesn't make any sense to break into a house at night for burglary purposes either. Even the stupidest criminal can figure out that when I go to work, I am not going to be there, which means less for the robber to deal with. If I am at my house, there is no "robbery" going on. That person is in my house to hurt me and can no longer remain there.

Another thing too, someone who is going to break into my house knows that they are in deep already, so why give that extra chance? When a man goes from a dead beat, and crossed that line of actually going into another person's homes, to take that persons valuables, he can't act like nothing is going to happen. It's not just some light hearted fun or something, they are in your house up to no good. They are not allowed to be there, that's your space and he knows he can't just saunter in and make some scrambled eggs, so it's not like that's what a bad guy has in mind here.

"get out of my house, you do not belong here."

 

[RP88]

00 Buck, however, is a known antipersonnel load, not a deer hunting round, and will get a lot of scrutiny in a courtroom.

:banghead:

buckshot is used on everything from people to deer to black bear. It's one of the most popular types of hunting ammo. I have no idea where you came up with that, but by that logic every single gun was meant to be used for mainly killing humans. Not saying they couldn't be used that way, but...compare a 9mm handgun to a moose rifle and there is quite a difference.

 

[fireman 9731]

I have thought about less than lethal ammo in my HD shotgun quite a bit...

I am college student and live in a college neighborhood. Of course there are always lots of parties and drunkards wandering around the neighborhood at the wee hours of the morning and the chances of a drunk, belligerent person wandering into the wrong house is a very real possibility.

Of course I don't want to drop some poor drunk college kid with a round of 00 Buck, so in my situation I think that non leathal ammunition is a much better idea.

Ideally I would be loaded one down with a few rounds of non lethal up front followed by a few rounds of 00 buck, I have a butt cuff with slugs and 00 buck in it so I could just pop one of them in the chamber if I knew that there was a confirmed, dangerous threat.

The only thing thats stopping me right now is the lack of availability of non lethal ammo, sure I could order some online, but for now, I think I'll just stick to 00 buck and hope that I don't end up shooting some drunk college kid that walked into the wrong house.

 

[RP88]

do you lock your doors? I don't see how someone just wanders INTO your house. Maybe up to the door, sure.

As said before, as backwards as it may sound, blasting someone in half is most likely going to be better for you in a legal perspective. the family can surely try and sue, but the potential criminal proceedings against you from some overzealous attorney won't have anything to go off other than what you say. Much better than having a guy playing the sympathy card after being hit with a rubber slug, saying how he was running away and that he needed money because he's product of the bad side of society and that he didnt want to hurt anyone and was sorry and blah blah blah. No, no one wants to do that. I know i don't. But, it's better him than you. He had his chance and blew it. You and loved ones shouldnt have to suffer him.

 

[fireman 9731]

With a few other room mates coming and going all the time, its a hassle sometimes to have the door locked all time. However the door is always locked when nobody is home.

 

[Sam1911]

I am college student and live in a college neighborhood. Of course there are always lots of parties and drunkards wandering around the neighborhood at the wee hours of the morning and the chances of a drunk, belligerent person wandering into the wrong house is a very real possibility.

Fireman, I feel for your position, having lived in student sections of college towns myself. However, if anyone can wander into your house accidentally then your first, second, (and so on) lines of defense are sorely lacking.

How in the world can a drunk "wander" into your house? I understand how a drunk can stumble up the wrong walk, can pound on the wrong door, can even throw up on the wrong doormat and pee in the wrong flowers. But "wander" into your house? What happened to all the other lines of defense that we're supposed to maintain? Where's the deadbolt lock on the solid entry door? Where are the well-lit approach ways? Where are the strategic rose bushes that make approaching ground floor windows difficult? Security system? Dog? Etc., etc.

I know you're not saying, "Well, the door's off it's hinges and the windows are all missing, and I don't have a security system or lights or even a dog. All I can do is sit here in the dark with my shotgun. Sure hope nobody wanders in 'cause all I can do is shoot him!" But it kind of sounds a little bit like that.

A drunk college kid is not going to employ the pre-meditated and aggressive techniques needed to invade your secured home. He might bang on the door and yell a lot -- until you explain (from the other side of that door) that he's at the wrong house and both you and Mr. 12 ga. would like him to leave. He might even try to climb up to a window -- until he's a bloody mess tangled in the roses he doesn't remember planting under "his" window...or until Mr. German Shepard tries to bite his nose off through the glass. ("Woah, dude...When did I get a dog?... Belch...Hic!") But he isn't going to breech your door, jimmy your windows, and/or wage a purposeful assault on you in your home. Generally speaking, of course.

Having your home be reasonably secured should give you the time to figure out which thing is happening. Is a drunk jacka$$ stumbling around in my yard breaking my flower pots and knocking over the garbage? Maybe I should call the cops and keep an eye on him from an upstairs window until they get here. Is it a crew of alert and purposeful uglies carrying crowbars and ball bats who just popped my door off the hinges? Maybe I need to respond with force right now -- sooner if possible! A reasonable security "perimeter" should protect the drunk idiots from getting far enough in to risk their lives -- and give you a bit of warning and time to assess the situation.

All that to say, if you need to shoot, you need that first shot to be the most effective thing you've got because you might not get a second one. And if you really didn't need to shoot, it won't matter if you were loaded with marshmallows and candy kisses, you just committed assault, aggravated assault, or manslaughter.

There's no such thing as, "Oh thank goodness I'd only loaded rubber buck -- that was just party boy Jimmy from next door!" Party boy Jimmy would be dead with a load of rubber buckshot in his head and you'll be facing a very different life ahead.

Keep your buckshot, buy some locks and lights, get a dog, develop a "hardened" (or at least better congealed!) perimeter. That will save a lot more frat boys' lives than your rubber buckshot.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

-Sam

EDIT: Just read your response to RP88. If you've got the door unlocked and folks coming and going frequently, please just forget home defense with the shotgun. You have no safe zone. If folks don't need to break in order to gain entry then your legal justification for shooting at them at all is a LOT harder to prove. What if the rubber buck does the trick? What if you made a mistake but they're out of the hospital in a few days with some bruises? You just discharged a firearm at them, UNJUSTIFIED. You'll be in jail for a lot longer than they'll be healing up.

EDIT2: The door is always locked when no-one's home? Well, if you keep it locked, at least you won't mistakenly shoot any frat boys who try to get in your house ... when you're not there...;-)

 

[kingpin008]

Give the roommates keys. If they end up locked out because they forgot/lost the key, that's tough. They're old enough to be able to maintain a locked house.

Think of it like this - while the chances of someone breaking in with the intent to do harm is probably relatively small, the chances of someone breaking in looking to jack all your stuff is pretty high. Something as simple as keeping the doors and windows locked goes a -long- way towards keeping your valuables out of the hands of the local crackheads.

 

[Titan6]

I am college student and live in a college neighborhood. Of course there are always lots of parties and drunkards wandering around the neighborhood at the wee hours of the morning and the chances of a drunk, belligerent person wandering into the wrong house is a very real possibility.

Strangely the police killed a drunk belligerent college student just a couple of weeks ago.

00 Buck, however, is a known antipersonnel load, not a deer hunting round, and will get a lot of scrutiny in a courtroom.

Really? Where do you hunt? All these years I thought "buck" shot meant something else entirely. What does it mean? And why do they keep putting a picture of a deer on the package I buy at Walmart? That is deceptive advertising at it's worst.

I've personally known a guy who took a slug to the back from about ten or fifteen feet and lived.

Granted, he's missing a HUGE chunk of muscle and some intestine, but he's still alive and gets around pretty damn well.

OK, but I am willing to bet he ceased being a threat to anyone quite shortly after he was shot.

 

[FoMoGo]

I cant imagine the kind of person who could take a slug to center mass and exist...

Me either... but if its a single intruder, dude is getting both barrels of the coach gun at the same time.
Not many people are walking away from 875 grains of lead center mass.


Jim

 

[Nugilum]

All I'm going to say is I'll rethink my position.