Home Defense With Rubber Buck And Other "Non-Lethal" ammo

[Boba Fett]

Instead of loading your 12 guage with this

try loading it with a selection of this

I've always wondered if "specialty ammo" would present a problem in a lawsuit...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Only time I've ever recommended rubber shot is for chasing off mountain lions. It can still be lethal up close, but gives you an option if you DON'T wish to be lethal and you have some space.

 

[Blakenzy]

try loading it with a selection of this

"The cavity created has the shock effect of 95%! That means only 5% of any living being could survive this kind of hit."

"Make the intruder think twice with this double whammy of power. If the big pellets don’t get you, the small ones will!"

"Try your hand at being a 21st century cowboy today."

"the results are both devastating and exciting to see, hear, & feel!"

You would think it's all a big joke, but no, they are actually for real! LOL

 

[gregormeister]

My kids sleep upstairs and my 357. don't shoot no rubber balls at someone who is there to steal, kill or do worse to my family.

And these scumbags can sue you and win if they get the right defense. Not to sound like a mall ninja, but if its my family and my safety on the line I'm not gonna take this scumbags life into consideration, do I want to hurt anyone? NO, but there is a fine line between my families health and a moral dilemma as to why I should give this scumbag a chance to do it again.....My 2 cents

 

[Sam1911]

"The cavity created has the shock effect of 95%! That means only 5% of any living being could survive this kind of hit."

That is AWESOME! Someone has managed to write a QUANTIFIED statement completely unbounded by units of measure -- or tied in any way to a measureable physical phenomenon. In fact, they've folded, spindled, and mutilated the numbers in such a fasion that the complementary quantities (95% and 5%) apply to both a fictitious physical ... something ("shock effect") -- let's call it a force though it obviously is not related to mass and acceleration in any way -- AND to a demographic quantity ("...any living being..." -- an utterly unrelated, absurd, and blatantly immesurable subset of all animate creatures.

This takes TALENT! I am so apalled that I actually LOVE it!

It would make a great ironic .sig line.

-Sam

 

[Owen Sparks]

It amazes me that some people think that you owe a violent assailant a fair fight.

 

[Matt-J2]

Sorry for this, but I had to post: Every time I see the thread title, I think it says 'rubber duck'. I must admit, if someone is assaulting me with a rubber duck, I'd be thrown off guard for a bit.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

1.) I would never want to take somones life if a more reasonable deturant/alternative would be effective at getting somone out of my home or incapacitating them enough for a quick set of cable ties on the wrists and feet.

As has been posted earlier, using rubber buckshot is using lethal force.

The fact that you chose rubber is tantamount to a confession that you did not feel you had no choice in the matter -- and that would make you guilty of manslaughter if the man you shoot dies.

 

[Wisconsin_Trap]

Wicked Ammo

12 Gauge Pirahna
This 12 gauge round contains dozens of razor sharp steel tacks that blast out at high velocity which virtually guarantees that there will no response from the perpetrator. Each round is buffed with #12 shot thus creating a double shock to the wound area. Absolutely will not harm your shotgun. To be used no closer than 10 feet and no further than 50 feet. 2 3/4" round.

"In the worst area" ? Are they trying actually saying that this is the ammo of choice to shoot somone in the junk with ?

12 GA. Pepper Blast
A shot that will bring tears to your eyes. This 12 gauge shell will spread a blast of cayenne pepper directly from the barrel of your gun, disabling your target and allowing you to get away or take control of the situation. A blinding blast of Cayenne pepper can make that unwanted pest think twice. 2.75 round

I think these could be good for black bear in my garbage cans.


Thank you all for your responses. In my particular case. You have all helped me in a way to handle a intruder in a effective way if need be.

I now understand that it is better to be safe than sorry and shoot to stop the intruder the first time and end his threat if need be.

However if able, will let the intruder leave my property if he so desires. Any lack of cooperation will be concidered a threat to my saftey and my family and will be delt with force.

As much as I would want to gather my family and go to a safe room without having to seek out the intruder, it isnt possible in my case as my sons bedroom is on the main level of the house and it would be impossible to retrieve him back upstairs without being noticed, my only other option is to gather my wife and daugher and use his room as the safe room but that would expose them to a possible gunfight and 3 targets are easier to hit than one. I am not going to sit it out upstairs when my son is downstairs alone. Sorry but that aint going to happen.

If and only if I feel the need of lethal force is needed will I make that determination and it may not help that I am a crabby ass morning man

 

[Tirod]

Well, I think we've made the following points - Less that Lethal isn't NON lethal, and the users of 00 Buck don't care if they kill their wife and kids in the other room.

No, I don't really believe that either.

My previous points made - and corroborated by others - are that rubber rounds are still lethal, you can get them in "Claymore TYPE" munitions, and even rubber slugs. I sent some home to the kids from GTMO. The stuff is out there. As described - and again, corroborated by others - you better be trained.

Which leaves the last off-topic point - the use of 00 buck in the lightly built frame homes most of us live in. Most pro's don't use it - think apartment house. Liability of innocent citizens is still at stake when clearing the building isn't an option. Please consider your family, too.

Which is better - a lethal load of birdshot with few penetrations in the kids bedroom - or a load of 00 buck and godknowswhatdidyoujustdo?

Back up and think further - you have the same problem with most other rounds, right down to .22. Home defense is a lot more complicated when you factor in your own rounds being just as lethal to friends, family, and pets as to perps.

So, I'm being up front - don't use 00 Buck for home defense. Birdshot is better.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, the key is combat awareness and planning. Ideally, your family members will be behind you and the bad guy will be in front. Failing that, you should be aware of where family members are.

Birdshot is usually less than lethal, and isn't what I'd pick when the chips are down.

 

[Monkybrainz]

well non leathel rounds sound neat, i dont live in an appartment and know ever inch of my home in the dark. anything over 3 feet tall will be shot at the 4 foot range. morals? is it right to enter a persons home without permission? is this thier "first time?", maybe/maybe not.....but it would be their last...
i have so much love and faith in God, I would introduce any enemy to him....

 

[Tirod]

Unfortunately, the BG's come when and where they please. Many instances of homeowners responding to a door or window breaking leave them reacting to the problem. Most families don't drill for it, and parents aren't being taught to how to deal with it on forums, magazines, or courses. It's a big zero.

As for birdshot - yes, #4 only penetrates about 6 inches in gelatin and won't reliably stop - whatever that means. The concern I'm expressing is that penetration by 9 .30 00 buckshot rounds can and will penetrate two layers of sheetrock - it'll go 22 inches in gelatin - and still be highly lethal passing through an adjoining room.

Since no one can predict with absolute certainty that their child will just not get up and wander into a firefight, I still can't justify the use, and I'm not accepting anyone else's when they shoot their own kid.

With #4 birdshot, a COM hit penetrating 6 inches is going to slow someone down - and leave them pretty dazed. If under the influence, well, just about nothing seems to work then except multiple rounds - more pellets flying through the sheetrock.

I've done MOUT training with MILES, and my share of remodeling. I'm content to leave the livefire experts on it as the final resource, but for me, sheetrock is way too fragile to be considered any kind of backstop to protect family. Therefore, realistic adjustments for their protection (from ME ) are necessary. At least I'm not contributing to the problem, and my actions should stop the perps contribution.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

With #4 birdshot, a COM hit penetrating 6 inches is going to slow someone down - and leave them pretty dazed. If under the influence, well, just about nothing seems to work then except multiple rounds - more pellets flying through the sheetrock.

The problem is that 6 inches in ballistic gelatin is NOT a guarantee of a 6 inch hit. The FBI recommends 12" to 18" in B gel because 12" to 18" in B gel has a higher likelihood of incapacitation.

An intruder struck at an angle where shoulder/arm is struck first wearing flannel shirt and a heavy coat (say winter time burflary) 6" in B gel may be little more than enough energy to penetrate the coat, shirt, and penetrate <1" in the arm of BG.

At which point the BG turns and fires a round at YOU with 12"-18" of penetration.

Birdshot is a VERY GOOD Home Defense load if you believe you may be attacked by unruly rob of morning doves.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Since no one can predict with absolute certainty that their child will just not get up and wander into a firefight, I still can't justify the use, and I'm not accepting anyone else's when they shoot their own kid.

And someone else should accept your excuse when an intruder kills your kid?

 

[Titan6]

Since no one can predict with absolute certainty that their child will just not get up and wander into a firefight, I still can't justify the use, and I'm not accepting anyone else's when they shoot their own kid.

Anyone else's what? Justification for defending their life and the life of their family and then the failure to do so? The police have absolutely no qualms about shooting an armed suspect that is acting in a threatening manner with any kind of gun in any kind of house. Luckily for me the lives of me and my family don't depend upon your say so.

I'm content to leave the live fire experts on it as the final resource, but for me, sheet rock is way too fragile to be considered any kind of backstop to protect family.

Of course. But you are overlooking some of the other obvious factors.

Besides in my house the interior walls are mostly three bricks thick. In fact the last three houses I have lived in have all had interior brick and plaster walls.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Since no one can predict with absolute certainty that their child will just not get up and wander into a firefight, I still can't justify the use, and I'm not accepting anyone else's when they shoot their own kid.

If your child just gets up and wanders into a firefight and you shoot him at a range of a few feet, does it really matter what you shot him with?

 

[JImbothefiveth]

As much as I would want to gather my family and go to a safe room without having to seek out the intruder, it isnt possible in my case

Be absolutely sure to identify your target then. Also, you might want to get an alarm system, but still be absolutely sure of your target.

 

[czarjl]

I am of the opinion that if you are picking up a gun to “deal” with the BG and using “less-lethal” you should put the gun in the safe and have a baseball bat.
Less-lethal has its place for police because it is not there “last option”. If I am in the situation were I have no other choice but to fire my gun to protect my family and myself I am at my last option.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I think this one has been adequately covered. And then some. This is not the first time the issue has come up on THR, it's been done over and over. And we're not doing this one any more.

There are no hard and fast answers beyonf "know the laws of self defense in your jurisdiction." That means knowing BOTH the black-letter 'lawbook' law, and knowing the case law- what gets decided in court, and why. There are no substitutes for knowing, and finding out this stuff after the fact is definitely doing it the hard way.

Don't do it the hard way. That's what this place is about- trying to help honest law abiding folks avoid learning all sorts of things the hard way.

Here it is in a nutshell re. "non-lethal" ammo. ANYTHING fired in a shotgun MIGHT be lethal, including blanks. Shotguns are by definition lethal force. There is no way to minimize that. Period. So forget "non-lethal" ammo. To be justified in shooting at all, you have to be justified in killing. No way around that- sorry.

lpl