Home Defense With Rubber Buck And Other "Non-Lethal" ammo

[Wisconsin_Trap]

I wanted to take a poll on what everyone thinks of rubber buckshot or other "Non Lethal" ammo to protect your home.

I can think of a few good reasons to use it that I think should be taken into concideration.

1.) I would never want to take somones life if a more reasonable deturant/alternative would be effective at getting somone out of my home or incapacitating them enough for a quick set of cable ties on the wrists and feet.

2.) Sheet Rock offers little or no protection to my kids sleeping in the next room when you are shooting at a criminal in a dark and can not garuntee that every one of the 15 pellets of lead 00 buck hit their mark.

3.) Rubber buck is still lethal at a few yards away.

4. You can shoot the perp in the ass while he is leaving your house to give him a good reminder that its not such a good idea to go into somones house.

As I said, I am looking for a alternative to spilling somones blood all over my nice clean carpets, but as I dont get wrong, if i do decide to use a less lethal round, the 3rd round in my 870 will be a 3inchs of 00 lead buck.

Just looking for everyones $.02 on the idea

 

[FoMoGo]

If someone breaks into my house, and I have an inkling that they could cause harm... I will paint the walls red.
Home owners insurance may replace your carpet.
I am not about to give the scum who would enter my house a chance to harm me or my family.
Have a code word... yell the word... kids hit the floor.
You shot him while he is leaving... in the back... and he may have a suit against you.
I wont pull the trigger on someone to discourage or injure.


Jim

 

[HammerBite]

1.) I would never want to take somones life if a more reasonable deturant/alternative would be effective at getting somone out of my home or incapacitating them enough for a quick set of cable ties on the wrists and feet.

What if your home invader isn't so considerate and is shooting at you with real ammo?

4. You can shoot the perp in the ass while he is leaving your house to give him a good reminder that its not such a good idea to go into somones house.

Then you can do jail time for shooting someone who is fleeing and no longer a threat.

 

[Wisconsin_Trap]

Well

I mean where do you draw the line ? Does everyone coming into your home want to rape your wife ? Probably not but I mean if they where and I was sure of that yeah, right in the head, no questions asked. But I dont think it appropriate to kill somone over a handfull of DVD's.

I understand that most people would just come out of the bedroom shoot and ask questions later. But I mean there is a moral concern that needs to be addressed.

As for the code word you said to practice...My kids dont get up to an m-80 out their window let alone me yelling. For all I know my 8 year old could get up in a sleeping daze and come see what I was yelling about.

 

[FMF]

You may not be able to tell if they're armed or not so an advancing stranger in your home should be considered armed and dangerous regardless. The perp took their life into their own hands when they set foot on your property with criminal intent.

If you feel bad about taking the life of someone who might want to take yours, by all means, load up on the less-lethal stuff. You'll look like a saint in court when they tell the jury what wounded the perp. Then he'll spend a nice holiday in jail, get out and have a go at someone else.

And if he/they get away what's to stop them from coming back packing lethal ammo to counter-act your pro-life stance?

Shooting him in the arse on the way out seems like a bad idea if you look at it from a legal perspective: "The instant my client saw the homeowner he grew a conscience and decided to not steal anything he could pawn for food and what does he get for his kindness? A backside of lacerations and bruises from this "thug" of a homeowner who's sole intent was to maim my client," Sounds like what might be said.

But hopefully it'll never come to any of that and the rack of your 870 will be all that's needed to be said.

 

[divemedic]

1 Under the law, it is still considered to be using lethal force.

2 By using ammunition that you think and claim is less lethal, and claiming you did so because you did not think the situation rose to the level of requiring lethal force means you will get torn up by any opposing attorney. Hard to defend shooting someone that you didn't think needed lethal force to stop.

3 This ammo, being of a lower power, is less likely to stop the person who needed shooting. Leaves you open to the possibility of the BG putting a knife or bullet into you after being hit by pellets.

4 Remember that when LEOs use less lethal devices, they usually have backup standing right next to them, with a pistol, shotgun, or rifle, making sure that if the BG needs shooting, that option is immediately available.

 

[FoMoGo]

the moral concern was solved when he broke into the house.
You have no idea what his goal is... always assume it is the worst... unless you want your family dead, raped, or fatherless.
Any one who intrudes in my house has taken his life in his own hands.
I refuse to allow these things to happen to my family.


Jim

 

[NDN-MAN]

WISCONSIN TRAP
How do you know what is in someones head to do. I have a simple rule. DO NOT ENTER MY HOME UNINVITED. You will not like the welcome.
Ask yourself this. If you get hurt, Who protects your family??? If you live alone do what you feel is right.
But my familys safety is more important, than that of people who break into my home.

 

[JWarren]

If it is serious enough to pull the trigger, it is serious enough not to care if it is lethal.


But your considerations:

1.) I would never want to take somones life if a more reasonable deturant/alternative would be effective at getting somone out of my home or incapacitating them enough for a quick set of cable ties on the wrists and feet.

- Less-than-lethal is STILL considered lethal force.
- You better be mentally prepared for the possibility of it being lethal if you shoot anything. It will very possibly be lethal.
- Do you REALLY want your family in a position that your response is INSUFFICIENT when it REALLY matters???

2.) Sheet Rock offers little or no protection to my kids sleeping in the next room when you are shooting at a criminal in a dark and can not garuntee that every one of the 15 pellets of lead 00 buck hit their mark.

- This may be the ONLY concern that you have brought up that is considerable.

- I'd say that it would be better to lay your house out in ways that this is not a major possiblity, or insure that there is proper thickness in walls and/or furniture in the room to reduce your concern-- and increase your awareness of your target and what is beyond (which is not always a thing you can alter).

3.) Rubber buck is still lethal at a few yards away.

- It is lethal for longer than a few yards. If you shoot in your house, it is likely in the range that is quite possibly lethal.

4. You can shoot the perp in the ass while he is leaving your house to give him a good reminder that its not such a good idea to go into somones house.

- The lawsuit and/or charges you will face will likely not go well for you.


-- John

 

[Wisconsin_Trap]

So the police are going to go lighter on you when you kill a person in your living room with 2 of your DVDs in his pocket ? No, I am not pro life, some people need to deal with what can happen to them if they get in the right circumstances. i.e. getting shot trying to do bad things to your family.

I guess the best couse of action would be to load up with "Real" ammo and give the perp the choice to take the easy way out, hell even use the front door this time or leave in a body bag. However here in wisconsin, our laws state that is lawfull to use lethal force against a person that enters your residence with intent to due harm to you or your family. However it is not lawful to use lethal force to prevent loss of property even if said person is in your home.

To me that leaves a lot of grey area for a perp. "I was just in there to borrow some toilet paper and BLAM!!"

It is even worse now a days when a mojority of break ins are done by 15 year old thrill seekers with mothers that will take every penny from you for killing their baby "that never did anything wrong to anyone". "He just got pressured at school to be cool" "The homeowner could of just talked to him"

I guess my only option is to shoot first, deal with going to jail for the rest of my life or a long time for using excessive deadly force, or taking a knife out of the kitchen and putting it in the perps hand saying that that alone was enough intent to cause my family harm.

As I said, the 2nd or 3rd round would be real ammo. And after being shot 2x with rubber buck he still feels the need to come at me, then I guess that shows his intent.

I guess the main deal here on the question in the first place is having non lethal ammo may save my arse from the law on using excessive lethal force since my ammo selection wasnt lethal to begin with.

 

[Nugilum]

Wow, I'm the dissident...

Wisconsin_Trap, that's the current set-up I have as well.

I have the same beliefs as Wisconsin_Trap and that is our right. I have been belittled for my set-up as well. However the same shotgun has 15 count 00Buck ready to go as well as the 00Buck rubber shot.

If said individual doesn't get the hint with the first salvo, then, and only then, I'll end it.

 

[HoosierQ]

I am going to say at HD ranges (what 5 - 7 yards at most?) just about any "less than lethal" round would kill somebody just about every time...those aren't nerf balls in those rounds.

Those round are "less than lethal" in crowd control situations where we are talking 20 yards or so. The steam goes out of those rubber balls pretty quick but not at 5 yards.

No, if you gotta shoot, use live rounds...your life probably depends on it. If you are worried about penetration, don't use 00. Use #4 or #5 bird shot....you could go to 7 1/2 and still put a lot of lead on target at 5 yards but those little pellets are going to deflect pretty good through sheet rock. Heaven forbid a 7 1/2 pellet does get away from you, one pellet, slowed down by sheetrock would probably be "less than lethal".

Shooting in HD/SD situations is dangerous business but you'd better be all business about it.

The comment about the CDs is, with all due respect, missguided. People breaking into occupied homes are dangerous criminals and are going to have to be dealt with as such. The CDs or other worldly possessions are neither here nor there. Home invasion is just that.

 

[FoMoGo]

Dead is dead... whether from rubber balls or a lead slug.


Jim

 

[JWarren]

So the police are going to go lighter on you when you kill a person in your living room with 2 of your DVDs in his pocket ?

If I were a betting man, I'd say you have a better case with a dead person IN your house than a dead/wounded person 20 yards out in your yard.... so YES.

I live in a state that allows for defense of property, and I am a proponet of defending property, but only a fool doesn't believe that your position is stronger with the intruder IN your home. IN the home suggests far more of a threat to your life than a person shot in the @ss out in your yard.

To me that leaves a lot of grey area for a perp. "I was just in there to borrow some toilet paper and BLAM!!"

I find nothing grey about a person in my home at 2 AM.

It is even worse now a days when a mojority of break ins are done by 15 year old thrill seekers with mothers that will take every penny from you for killing their baby "that never did anything wrong to anyone". "He just got pressured at school to be cool" "The homeowner could of just talked to him"

Castle Doctrine in MY state prohibits a homeowner from EVEN BEING SUED in Civil Court for an incident that that no Criminal conviction has occured.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Mama can pound sand if Jr. wants to start a home invasion hobby here.

I guess my only option is to shoot first, deal with going to jail for the rest of my life or a long time for using excessive deadly force, or taking a knife out of the kitchen and putting it in the perps hand saying that that alone was enough intent to cause my family harm.

Your first option should be to completely understand the laws of your jurisdiction and do your utmost to live and act within those laws.

And if that becomes impossible, be willing to accept the consequences of your actions-- even if you had no choice in defending your family.


-- John

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If the situation did not justify firing with lethal ammunition, it did not justify firing at all.

While you may see police using tasers, "bean bag" projectiles and such to subdue a suspect, remember that they are trained and have backup. In civilian defensive situations, there is really not room for an intermediate level of force - either you let the suspect go or you shoot him.

 

[Deanimator]

If you're in my home, KNOWING I'm there and you choose to threaten me with lethal force, you're going to get lethal force back and an overwhelming amount of it.

I don't use long guns in my home because they're useless there. When I had more room to maneuver, I had double-ought buckshot for my Ithaca 37 and M193 ball for my AR carbine.

If you make yourself a credible, immediate threat to me in my home, my desire to protect YOU is precisely zero. I'm going to shoot to stop you, and that usually means you die. Don't like that? Get a job.

 

[hso]

Spend some time reading in the S&T and Legal forums and you'll learn that several of the things you assume are wrong.

There's no "nonlethal" ammo only less lethal, "parting gifts" are for game shows not self defense, knowing where and when you can shoot is of critical importance, never try to "hold a suspect", etc.

And to answer your question, no, rubber buckshot is not any good for home protection.

 

[CoRoMo]

Go to Vegas and roll the dice with your life's savings.

Using nonlethal ammo is the same, but the stakes are infinitely higher.

 

[Tirod]

As an Army Reservist MP I was trained in both Lethal and Less than Lethal during regular and deployment training.

Less than Lethal is only used for riot control situations. Appropriate training to reduce injuries and prevent death is required of users. Less than Lethal rounds include rubber buckshot, sabot, and area weapons, including 40mm and Claymore type munitions.

Less than Lethal isn't a good substitute for a lethal force situation. If a perpetrator is in your home and you feel your life is threatened, then use lethal force. Using Less than Lethal force might be a nice thing to do - until the intruder sues you for deliberately reducing the quality of their life by blinding, maiming, or causing deliberate suffering and injury, including loss of the ability to reproduce.

Case law for lead projectiles is on your side, as you were only "trying to stop." Less than Lethal has much less ability to do so with a much higher risk of injury. Again, without proper training, the risk of unintended consequences is much higher.

By the way, 00 buck isn't recommended for home defense precisely because it will penetrate sheetrock. #4 to 6 is preferred as two layers of rock will substantially capture most pellets. Having #4 - a common pheasant load - at hand is just a hunting round. 00 Buck, however, is a known antipersonnel load, not a deer hunting round, and will get a lot of scrutiny in a courtroom. Since it won't do a better job, and endangers innocent family, I won't use it.

This is really just another case of "Why can't we all just get along?", and the results are once again worse for everyone. I don't know of one incident in international history that was decisively resolved with the use of rubber bullets on the battlefield. I doubt very seriously a home invasion will be either.

 

[Blakenzy]

The bottom line is if you are not willing to accept that death may result of your defensive actions, then a firearm is not the right tool for you. Choose something else.

A firearm is considered a deadly weapon regardless of the cartridge loaded in it. Rubber shot makes it LESS-lethal (not
less-than-lethal); make no mistake, it still remains a lethal weapon.

Even if rubber shot doesn't kill the intruder who is after your DVDs, it may still very likely cause serious damage. What are you going to say in court if you put out the invader's eyes? over a couple of DVDs no less...

Let's put it this way, if you shoot a person (with any load type), on whom you were not justified to use lethal force in the first place, you are going to prison.

 

[divemedic]

I guess my only option is to shoot first, deal with going to jail for the rest of my life or a long time for using excessive deadly force, or taking a knife out of the kitchen and putting it in the perps hand saying that that alone was enough intent to cause my family harm.

As I and others have pointed out, pulling the trigger is lethal force- even if you only fire a warning shot. Doing what you suggest is a good way to enrich someone's attorney.

Putting a knife in a person's hand after a shoot is another good way to take a good shooting and make it into a nightmare.

 

[JWarren]

00 Buck, however, is a known antipersonnel load, not a deer hunting round, and will get a lot of scrutiny in a courtroom.

I'm going to have a hard time believing either assertion in the above quote-- considering you practically CAN'T find ANY buckshot other than 00 buck in any of the sporting goods stores and Walmart around here.

I seriously doubt a jury is going to see it as an "anti-personal" round rather than a "hunting" round.

And what about TAP Self-Defense ammunition? Doesn't matter...


-- John

 

[NDN-MAN]

Wisconsin trap

A teen can still rape and kill. A weapon in a teens hand is no less deadly than in the hand of an adult. This is not a put down but something else to think about.

When it comes to your states duty to retreat law. You have to decide what you are willing to live with. And what price you are willing to pay. And you are not alone. Until September of 2008 Ohio had such a law. It was replaced by a CASTEL DOCTORINE LAW.

As far as your childeren in another room. Study the layout of your home ( draw the rooms, walls, doors and where the beds are. Study carefully where you may be and the directions you may fire) and see if moving a bed or dresser will put them farther out of harms way.

You can also practice shooting from a kneeling position so the ammo is traveling up and away from your loved ones. Shotguns do not shoot a wall of shot. Although many people think they do. At most in home distances the pattern will only be inches. Unless you have a very large home.

 

[Jeff White]

First off, every time you point a firearm at someone, no matter what it's loaded with, you are threatening the use of lethal force. You don't get a pass for good intentions because you loaded your shotgun with a round that you didn't think would be lethal. Everything you shoot from from a firearm, including blanks, can be and has been lethal at one time or another. These types of rounds are known as less lethal rounds, not non-lethal. Point a shotgun loaded with rubber buckshot, bean bags or batons and you''d better have the same legal reason to be pointing one loaded with 00 buck or a slug. It's the same thing.

Less lethal rounds were developed to give the police a last option before the use of deadly force to use on a combative subject. They are always used with another officer in a position to immediately, yes I said immediately, not after he ran the slide on the pump gun, but immediately as in a fraction of a second after the less lethal round fails to have the desired result, use deadly force to resolve the situation. Less lethal rounds are team weapons.

12 gauge less lethal rounds are notoriously ineffective and many police departments across the country have abandoned them preferring to use 37 or 40mm less lethal rounds.

There is nothing to be gained from the use of less lethal rounds by a private citizen and much to lose. If you are uncomfortable with idea of killing an intruder, perhaps you should not contemplate the use of firearms at all in your defensive plans.

 

[BT2Flip]

I can see your point about "Not wanting to Kill the Perp...
BUT he is not there to dance...

and If you give him a beating or shoot him with a rubber bullet
YOU will be in court for assault and he will be back on the street and Maybe back at your home (Because he knows your not home)

that's the way it is in Mass... which is 50 feet from my front door