How Many are NOT Comfortable with Condition 1 Carry ?

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Newton

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I have a FEG Hi Power that would be my carry gun of choice for serious social occasions (if I were allowed of course), but the thought of that hammer sittting cocked over a live round makes me a little uncomfortable.

The 1911 adds the grip safety, but the HP just gets the one.

Does anyone prefer the fit and feel of a HP or a 1911, but refuse to carry it in Condition 1 because of fears about an AD when you sit down, bump into things, or whatever.

Newton
 
In a properly maintained firearm, carried in a quality holster, you will have no safety issues carrying in condition one. The other thing you should consider is that comfort & confidence in any carry mode requires some training to get acquainted w/ it.
 
I've carried a 1911A1 in Condition 1 many times and never had the thumb safety work it's way off. Plus, as mentioned, you still have the grip safety and the trigger would still have to be pulled to make it go off.

Never carried a BHP at all though I would be 95% as confident in it as I am in the 1911.

Though many gun nuts don't like to admit it, I would be nearly as confident in carrying a 1911 without a round in the chamber. Of course, if you aren't comfortable carrying in condition 1, there are plenty of DAO or DA/SA pistols to chose from.
 
It depends on the gun.
In general I am fine with it unless the gun is sketchy.
If the gun is sketchy, I'm not going to be carrying it for very long.
 
I am going to state an unpopular opinion (it is an opinion, not a fact).

I think condition one carry is over rated.

The primary reason for condition one carry is the advantage of immediate response. But, when you think about it, if you need a gun real fast it is probably too late. Consider the following situations where a person is SURPRIZED and ALREADY under ATTACK:

1. Knife - if someone has ambushed you and is in the process of stabbing you, you need to nuetralize his weapon before trying to outdraw him. You will most likely be overcome before you can get it into play.

2. Gun holdup - If someone has the drop on you and is holding you at gunpoint, forget outdrawing them. Suicide.

3. You are under fire - Get cover first. Trying to stand there and draw your gun and shoot back is not a high probability choice.

4. Blunt object and/or fists - same as knife in example one.

A condition 3 gun is safer. Like it or not, accidents happen. If a bad guy gets your gun, you have an opportunity to get it back before he figures out what is wrong. And, a condition 3 gun can be brought into action extremely fast if the user is AWARE before the THREAT becomes an ATTACK.

My opinion is that awareness is more important than the condition of the gun. Awareness allows the defender to identify the THREAT before it becomes an ATTACK. If you are in the ATTACK phase it is too late.

Flame away. That is my opinion. I know it is more romantic to spin and draw on the bad guy just like in the movies. I just don't see it.
 
Well, a small number of folks in my agency experienced some problems many years ago, but as I recall it primairly involved non-holstered carry, and the thumb safety being "rubbed off", and then the trigger being sufficiently depressed while being shoved in the waistband ... or jostled a bit while seated in a car ... to have the hammer released. One fellow got a round through his butt while seated in a car, as I recall ...

When I used to carry with open top, non-retention strap holsters of the type popular from the 70's, I experienced a couple of instances where I discovered my thumb safety had been "rubbed" off during the course of a day. It was a stock Colt thumb safety, too. That finally convinced me to either use a holster with a retention strap under the cocked hammer, and partly covered the thumb safety ... and then later use a holster that incorporated a raised leather "shield" on the left side of the weapon ... you know, the ones that were initially marketed to help prevent the "extended" thumb safeties from biting into your side. They also seemed to work well for preventing the thumb safety from being rubbed off, at least for me.

I know another instructor who has NEVER had his thumb safety "rubbed" off ... but then, he's also left-handed.;)

Of course, part of the answer is a properly designed & fitted (to the pistol AND the wearer) holster which prevents unintentional leverage against the thumb safety, or unintentional movement of the thumb safety.

The rest of the answer is to acquire a proper level of training, handling experience and awareness required to safely & effectively carry a cocked & locked SA pistol for defensive purposes.

Of course, sometimes you might come across a pistol which has a less-than-properly-fit thumb safety, and which might be more easily nudged "off" tha one which was properly fitted. A properly fitted one, though, provides for a comforting "snick" both "on" & "off" ...
 
I won't flame dave, but will state that I hope that is the way you train. If you practice and train drawing a loaded weapon, when the SHTF and your instincts take over, that is what your mind will tell you to do. If you train to draw and rack a round into the chamber, then that is probably what your mind will tell you to do. I train (practice) drawing a loaded weapon and shooting, that is how I carry.

To answer the question, I was always nervous about carrying a 1911 in C1. Never owned a Hi Power. Didn't carry a 1911 very often for this reason. I carry a Glock all the time with one in the pipe. Just my personal feelings, to each his own. :D
 
I used to carry a 1911 in condition one, but on two occasions the safety somehow worked itself off, I'll never know how. Now I carry a DA.

What is the conventional wisdom regarding a firing pin block safety, would it increase safety in condition one? I realize they are controversial, but for this discussion let's assume it works as advertised. :rolleyes:
 
Mr. Chitlin, I do train to rack the slide as I draw. I am new to CCW and could be wrong in my opinions. I carry primarily with an IWB at the 1:00 position and with Smartcarry. I would rather the bad guy get me than to screw up and shoot my nuts off. I still use them occassionally.
 
There is absolutely nothing improper or dangerous about carrying in condition 1, as long as that condition is involves involves a good OWB holster that fully covers the trigger. That's the way it was designed to be carried

From my perspective, condition 1 and CC are like oil and vinegar, they don't mix Not to say that there are not millions of 1911s, and BHPs being carried condition 1 IWB without NDs. I always think of Murphy's Law, "If something can go wrong, It will. The thought of shoving a condition 1 weapon into an IWB during a re-holster, or better yet just into a waistband,sans holster. makes me shudder thinking of the possible outcome.

For many years I would have said that only DA/SA, DAO, or DA revolvers belonged IWB. Over the past 2 years however, I have had to revise my list to include the Para LDA line of 1911 style pistols. With a frame mounted safety that disables the trigger, in addition to a grip safety, and the hammer down, round in chamber, firig pin blocked, they would seem to be as goof proof as any DA auto or revolver
 
I've gone back and forth with HP's. First I carried unchambered, then I when to C&L chambered now I'm back to empty chamber. If the sear breaks or something is defective in the gun that I don't know about I don't want it to shoot me.
 
I don't look at it as out-drawing my opponent as much as simply being able to make that first shot hit where I want it. Personally, I don't see why Condition 1 is seen as being prone to an AD when so many people carry their half-cocked, unlocked Glocks with a loaded chamber. With a 1911, even if the safety gets wiped off the grip safety is still there. Regarding a Hi-Power, it's hard to say as most in professional use over the years were older ones with the small thumb safety. If I'm not mistaken most were also carried in condition three. I know Israel's Mossad carried them like that.
 
Mine has the small thumb safety and I actually prefer that over the large ambidextrous one they now have on the MKIII's. The small ones tend to be harder to push off accidentally IME and also harder to accidentally push onto safe while firing. And I think they just look better/cleaner because they don't stick out as much.
 
Yes I have carried C&L a long time. both the 1911style and BHP. Guns are inspected and maintained, good leather is used. I agree with the removal of ambi on BHP, I don't use ambis on 1911 style either...

Understand tho, I learned on revos, hammer down on live rd , use good leather and Rule 3 applies to anything ( finger off trigger). 1911 style and BHP , I used , practiced...trained with a lot as well. Gets back to basics, gun maintained, training, 4 rules, good leather ( ok proper holster), one should feel comfortable.
 
I would also agree with Dave......

But, I would make an exception. Condition One is the only way to go if you're expecting to find yourself in a bad situation soon. However, I think the 1911 would be there just to back up my primary weapon.
 
I feel perfectly comfortable carrying a pistol in condition one. It should be a well made gun, in a well made holster, but it is still perfectly safe unless you pull the trigger with the safety off.

I agree with Dave that situational awareness is the key to any defensive incident. But not the implication that condition one is not useful and anyone that doesn't agree has seen too many "movies".

I hate playing the "what if" game, because many anti-gnners do this, but another perspective makes conversation so.......

1. Knife - if someone has ambushed you and is in the process of stabbing you, you need to nuetralize his weapon before trying to outdraw him. You will most likely be overcome before you can get it into play.

At contact range you should attempt to create distance and angles to seperate yourself from the point of attack, until such time you can neutralize the attacker with your weapon. You could easily have one hand engaged or injured by blocking.

2. Gun holdup - If someone has the drop on you and is holding you at gunpoint, forget outdrawing them. Suicide.

Absolutely correct! It's crazy to draw against a drawn gun (unless your Bill Jordan) but if your preparing to be executed anyway, what have you got to lose? You might get lucky.

3. You are under fire - Get cover first. Trying to stand there and draw your gun and shoot back is not a high probability choice.

Also true! Unless there is no cover readily available, then you may need to provide a distraction while you retreat.


4. Blunt object and/or fists - same as knife in example one

With a blunt object, see #1 above. I would think I wouldn't deem it necessary to draw a gun on someone that was attacking me with their fists? If it was multiple attackers, then see #1.

Like Dave said, hopefully we're aware enough to not put ourselves in a situation that we would ever have to test these theories. One of my favorite quotes is, "Never go anywhere with a gun, that you wouldn't go without one." :)

Regards,

Joe
 
One thing I have noticed, carrying in condition 3, is that I am more aware. I know I am not going to outdraw someone if I get surprized. This makes me pay more attention. Strange.

As a new CCW holder, I could be completely off base with these opinions. For what it is worth, I live in California and have never been able to carry. Even with a gun in condition 3, it feels like I am armed to the teeth. A day and night improvement.
 
It freaks me out. I like SA pistols alot but condition 1 carry makes me nervous. Probably shouldn't but it does. I have freinds who carry like that all the time with no problems. My SA autos are all high quality.

I get this mental picture of an AD or ND while in the holster and the bullet hitting me in the femoral artery and bleeding to death in about 5 minutes.:uhoh:
 
Well, it appears that the sissification of America is complete. I guess we can all go home and take up needlepoint. :D

We are talking about lethal weapons here, and people are freaked out because a cocked hammer looks scary? I hate to break this to everyone, but firearms are dangerous. That's why they are called "weapons" instead of "sugarplum fairies." :neener:

Another classic case of fear being the product of ignorance.
 
My most common carry piece is a 1911 in condition one. I have no problem with it. I find it curious that guys that are horror struck at the sight of a cocked and locked 1911, (with both a thumb and grip safety) think nothing of carrying their deer rifle ready to go or with the equivalent of the thumb safety on. Watch-Six
 
This is an interesting thread, if only because it illustrates the seemingly increasingly DECREASING amount of familiarity and knowledge by many owners of the mentioned handguns nowadays ...

When I was growing up, if anyone owned a 1911, you can bet they were probably familiar with it because either THEY were trained to use it in wartime circumstances ... or SOMEONE in their family had been, and had carefully passed on the knowledge AND interest in the proper and safe use of one ...

Nowadays, being a firearms instructor involved in training a lot of young people in their 20's & 30's, I'm simply amazed at the number of people who lack knowledge & familiarity with our nation's venerable and pre-eminent close quarters personal defensive sidearm of several decades ...

I actually had someone come back from one of the well known firearms schools and tell me all about how the latest and newest thing for L/E special weapons folks was the "1911" .45 ACP. This, from someone that didn't realize ... or maybe remember ... that the standard blued Colt 1911 was the SWAT service weapon in his agency many years ago. They appeared similarly surprised to hear that LAPD SWAT has continuously used them, as well ...

What's old is now new again, so to speak ...

Each of the current firearm's instructors for my agency owns at least one personal 1911 of some sort or another ... and a couple of us own several ... and the head range master & armorer builds some VERY NICE 1911's, and will do so for anyone that ASKS NICELY ...

Considering the apparent current state of firearms owner awareness, familiarization, knowledge and training regarding "cocked & locked" pistols ... I'd have to say that I don't think it's probably a wise idea for anyone to carry a cocked & locked 1911 variant without some form of proper training ...

While we've never "required" it of our folks who qualified with a personally owned 1911-type off duty weapon, we've instituted a policy that someone carrying one ON DUTY must attend an in-service training class on them, including range sessions supervised by instructors familiar with the safe, proper, and effective handling and use of 1911's ... and then carry them in proper holsters on & off duty ... and yes, they're carried cocked & locked.

We're hoping to have policy changed to allow for optional, personally owned weapons being carried for general on duty use, which would authorize a number of modern semiauto pistol designs, including DA/SA, SA (cocked & locked), and some of the variants, such as the"Safe Action" (short-stroke DAO) Glocks, and probably a few others. The different size, strength and "personal needs" of many of the folks entering L/E nowadays ... and the very real potential for "disparate impact" lawsuits ... would appear to be better addressed by allowing suitable personally owned weapons to be employed. Talk about an uphill battle, though ... and please don't bring up the idea of "ammunition commonality" when it comes to L/E use. :rolleyes: It makes about as much sense for common L/E use as it does if it were to be required that all CCW folks must carry a common caliber in case L/E needs to commandeer CCW ammunition during an emergency. (Would you all be willing to accept an ammunition caliber restriction, for commonality's sake, in order to receive national CCW authorization, simply because it "made sense" to someone somewhere? Me neither.)

One thing I personally support is that if someone is going to carry a 1911-type weapon, then they should not only be properly trained in the safe handling, carrying and shooting of them ... but they should probably limit themselves to carrying primarily only that type of weapon because of the specific manipulation required to disengage the thumb safety, and properly grip the weapon in order to deactivate the grip safety. (An exception to this would be carrying an easy-to-use secondary weapon, such as a short barreled revolver, as remembering to use a DA revolver under stress isn't a difficult to maintain skill ... with proper training, of course).

It's "interesting" to watch someone have a subcompact 1911-type weapon fail to fire because the "different" size & shape of the grip, combined with THAT specific shooter's grip, resulted in the grip safety NOT being deactivated ... "But I don't have a problem with my full size pistol?!?". Okay, but have you spent the necesary time to become familiar with your miniature, high-tech, gee-whiz 1911 ... just to see if its slightly different shape, size, grip dimensions, etc, required any accomodation on YOUR part, before you decided to start carrying it off duty? "Huh? I didn't think of that ..." No kidding.;)

If you're going to re-invent the wheel, try not to let it roll over your toes, you know?:)

If you're not comfortable with a certain type and design of weapon ... don't own it ... let alone legally carry one. There are probably a few others that will satisfy your needs, you know.

As someone else already mentioned, these are deadly weapons ... and it doesn't pay to have something like that around if you aren't conversant with how to handle, operate, carry and use it in a SAFE manner.

How many people that have a drivers license are able to safely drive a manual transmission equipped vehicle, especially in normal traffic conditions, including while having to "stop" while going uphill? Not everyone ... and those that can't probably don't own one, either, I'm betting.

As far as not carrying a 1911 with a chambered round? Well, that's a personal decision, and one that should probably be made after proper familiarization, training and experience in all aspects of owning, carrying and using a weapon of that design. An "informed" decision, as it were ...

A dull knife is a dangerous thing to have around, especially when you try to use it for any task which really calls for the use of a properly maintained and sharp knife ... in the hands of someone that has the knowledge, training and experience to effectively use it ...
 
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