P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Thx fastbolt .... a most readable synoptic ...... I like the points you make.
How Many are NOT Comfortable with Condition 1 Carry ?
- Thread starter Newton
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fastbolt
Member
And one more thought ... this one regarding the idea of "situational awareness", which is a phrase bandied about more & more nowadays ...
I'm not going to try and change anyone's mind about how they conduct their personal affairs when it comes to legally carrying a defensive weapon, if that's something they choose to do ... not my desire, or my place ... but think about this, for a moment ...
While the numbers change just a bit, depending on where you hear it and whoever's doing the talking ... it's often said that a "deadly force encounter" involving firearms often occurs at 6 feet, and is over within 2-3 seconds, with 2-4 rounds fired. Take into account that most ordinary folks simply don't believe how quickly this can occur, and aren't really "expecting it", and then think about how long it REALLY takes for someone to properly respond when they're suddenly caught up in the OODA loop, and in "reaction", instead of "action", mode ... and then ask yourself if you're going to be able to effectively use a method of drawing, presenting & employing your weapon which will always require the coordinated use of BOTH hands, and some fine motor skills, at that ...
What some foreign nation's military folks may do when it comes to how they use their secondary weapons ... shoulder-fired small arms being the primary weapons in a military, battlefield environment, for the most part ... may be "something else".
Hopefully, the hypothetical civilian CCW person we're thinking about won't be desperately fending off the unexpected attacker with their "support" hand, at "bad breath distances" ... I like that phrase, whoever came up with it, by the way ... while the support hand is desperately needed to manipulate the weapon to prepare it for use ...
I'm not advocating anybody do anything they're not comfortable with doing ... or trained to safely do, for that matter ... but sometimes being "aware" of your environment may not necessarily mean being able to recognize a perceived threat before it's become "up close & personal", and that may not always be possible ... especially when you consider the mental attitudes of most law-abiding "ordinary" folks, versus the predatory types of criminally-intentioned folks that prefer to have the element of "surprise" on their side.
Even alert folks can be "ambushed", especially when they aren't expecting it from one moment to the next. It's a bit mentally and emotionally "draining" and fatiguing to be constantly "aware" of a perceived deadly force threat ... you cops out there know what this means, and how we sometimes get a "wake up call" and often realize we've suddenly become "complacent" in some situations ...
I don't claim to have all the answers to these issues that have been raised ... but they're things I think about when I'm deciding whether to go armed on my own time, and how I'm going to be "aware" when I'm on the "public's" time while at work, and have to be armed for most occasions.
Think ... really THINK about what we're talking about, which is the potential lawful use of deadly force, after all ... and then carefully determine if you're doing all that you may determine is reasonably necessary for YOU to do, and whether you might benefit by additional, on-going proper training from some qualified source.
Everybody stay safe ...
I'm not going to try and change anyone's mind about how they conduct their personal affairs when it comes to legally carrying a defensive weapon, if that's something they choose to do ... not my desire, or my place ... but think about this, for a moment ...
While the numbers change just a bit, depending on where you hear it and whoever's doing the talking ... it's often said that a "deadly force encounter" involving firearms often occurs at 6 feet, and is over within 2-3 seconds, with 2-4 rounds fired. Take into account that most ordinary folks simply don't believe how quickly this can occur, and aren't really "expecting it", and then think about how long it REALLY takes for someone to properly respond when they're suddenly caught up in the OODA loop, and in "reaction", instead of "action", mode ... and then ask yourself if you're going to be able to effectively use a method of drawing, presenting & employing your weapon which will always require the coordinated use of BOTH hands, and some fine motor skills, at that ...
What some foreign nation's military folks may do when it comes to how they use their secondary weapons ... shoulder-fired small arms being the primary weapons in a military, battlefield environment, for the most part ... may be "something else".
Hopefully, the hypothetical civilian CCW person we're thinking about won't be desperately fending off the unexpected attacker with their "support" hand, at "bad breath distances" ... I like that phrase, whoever came up with it, by the way ... while the support hand is desperately needed to manipulate the weapon to prepare it for use ...
I'm not advocating anybody do anything they're not comfortable with doing ... or trained to safely do, for that matter ... but sometimes being "aware" of your environment may not necessarily mean being able to recognize a perceived threat before it's become "up close & personal", and that may not always be possible ... especially when you consider the mental attitudes of most law-abiding "ordinary" folks, versus the predatory types of criminally-intentioned folks that prefer to have the element of "surprise" on their side.
Even alert folks can be "ambushed", especially when they aren't expecting it from one moment to the next. It's a bit mentally and emotionally "draining" and fatiguing to be constantly "aware" of a perceived deadly force threat ... you cops out there know what this means, and how we sometimes get a "wake up call" and often realize we've suddenly become "complacent" in some situations ...
I don't claim to have all the answers to these issues that have been raised ... but they're things I think about when I'm deciding whether to go armed on my own time, and how I'm going to be "aware" when I'm on the "public's" time while at work, and have to be armed for most occasions.
Think ... really THINK about what we're talking about, which is the potential lawful use of deadly force, after all ... and then carefully determine if you're doing all that you may determine is reasonably necessary for YOU to do, and whether you might benefit by additional, on-going proper training from some qualified source.
Everybody stay safe ...
fastbolt
Member
P95Carry,
Thank you ... as long as you feel you didn't speak too soon, after you read the secondary posting I just finished.
fb
Thank you ... as long as you feel you didn't speak too soon, after you read the secondary posting I just finished.
fb
Fastbolt, you make some good points. However, just because someone carries in condition 3, does not mean they are not familiar with their weapon. I know my weapon and am very good with it. During my CCW class, I shot as well as any of the instructors. I choose condition 3 because I do not like a loaded weapon ever pointed at my body. In my Smartcarry and IWB at 1:00, the gun is pointed at my crotch. Training is great. However, I have seen "trained" people screw up under pressure. Myself included. Therefore, I plan for the real world and am willing to trade safety (24/7) for one second on the draw. To me, everything is a trade off. Besides, a gun is just one of the tools available to me in a deadly situation.
Feel free to tell me where you think I am wrong. That is how people learn.
Feel free to tell me where you think I am wrong. That is how people learn.
fastbolt
Member
dave3006,
I'm not in the position to "tell you you're wrong" ... and I wouldn't do it that way even if you were attending training I was conducting. That's not how I do things ... and that's notwithstanding the fact that I'm not convinced there's a black & white Right & Wrong way to consider some of these issues ...
I also don't presume that you're not technically competent in your familiarity with your chosen weapon, or lack ability when it comes to shooting it accurately, either. Your choice in HOW you decide to lawfully carry your chosen weapon may have little, or nothing, to do with how competent and accurate you may be with it ...
On the other hand ...
I would also offer to conduct some specific, advanced training scenarios for you, so you could evaluate for yourself just how capable you may, or may not, be in drawing, presenting and shooting your chosen weapon in the manner you've selected ... in a carefully controlled, SAFE training environment which could "duplicate" some of the potential circumstances in which you might be expected to decide you would resort to lawfully used deadly force.
Then, I'd also recommend that you consider receiving some carefully supervised and conducted FoF, or Simunitions training ... and let you decide whether you required some modification or enhancement of your training skills ... as well as any change in the manner and condition in which you carried your chosen weapon.
These are ALL personal issues, and can't be easily determined by someone other than YOU ... after you've carefully thought everything out and made an informed decision.
Not everyone that has a drivers license, or is a good, safe & "skilled" driver ... either chooses or "needs" to possess advanced EVOC driving skills, or even advanced defensive driving skills, you know? Interest & perceived "need" can certainly vary among folks, and that's the way it should be ...
Stay safe, and practice well ...
fb
I'm not in the position to "tell you you're wrong" ... and I wouldn't do it that way even if you were attending training I was conducting. That's not how I do things ... and that's notwithstanding the fact that I'm not convinced there's a black & white Right & Wrong way to consider some of these issues ...
I also don't presume that you're not technically competent in your familiarity with your chosen weapon, or lack ability when it comes to shooting it accurately, either. Your choice in HOW you decide to lawfully carry your chosen weapon may have little, or nothing, to do with how competent and accurate you may be with it ...
On the other hand ...
I would also offer to conduct some specific, advanced training scenarios for you, so you could evaluate for yourself just how capable you may, or may not, be in drawing, presenting and shooting your chosen weapon in the manner you've selected ... in a carefully controlled, SAFE training environment which could "duplicate" some of the potential circumstances in which you might be expected to decide you would resort to lawfully used deadly force.
Then, I'd also recommend that you consider receiving some carefully supervised and conducted FoF, or Simunitions training ... and let you decide whether you required some modification or enhancement of your training skills ... as well as any change in the manner and condition in which you carried your chosen weapon.
These are ALL personal issues, and can't be easily determined by someone other than YOU ... after you've carefully thought everything out and made an informed decision.
Not everyone that has a drivers license, or is a good, safe & "skilled" driver ... either chooses or "needs" to possess advanced EVOC driving skills, or even advanced defensive driving skills, you know? Interest & perceived "need" can certainly vary among folks, and that's the way it should be ...
Stay safe, and practice well ...
fb
There are three issues that I see related to condition 3 carry.
1 - Time. How long does it take to chamber a round while presenting the firearm? If you're practiced at it, I think it can be a natural part of the stroke, adding no appreciable time. However, what is the likelihood of a jam while trying to chamber under that much pressure? If you short-stroke the slide, or otherwise botch the task of chambering, it'll probably take more time than you have to clear it.
2 - Capacity. You automatically short yourself one round in condition 3.
3 - One-handed operation. You are shot in the arm (either arm) or your arm, shoulder, hand, fingers are injured beyond their ability to manipulate the slide of your weapon. Your weapon is still in the holster. Can you quickly bring your weapon into action with one hand? With your off hand?
The one-handed issue pertains to all of us, but for those of you who carry in condition 3, how do you plan to chamber that precious first round if you are so injured? Have you practiced this technique (with an unloaded firearm, of course) so you know it works?
This strikes me as a good place to use snap-caps. You'll need at least one in your magazine to practice with, since an empty mag will not do for this kind of drill.
1 - Time. How long does it take to chamber a round while presenting the firearm? If you're practiced at it, I think it can be a natural part of the stroke, adding no appreciable time. However, what is the likelihood of a jam while trying to chamber under that much pressure? If you short-stroke the slide, or otherwise botch the task of chambering, it'll probably take more time than you have to clear it.
2 - Capacity. You automatically short yourself one round in condition 3.
3 - One-handed operation. You are shot in the arm (either arm) or your arm, shoulder, hand, fingers are injured beyond their ability to manipulate the slide of your weapon. Your weapon is still in the holster. Can you quickly bring your weapon into action with one hand? With your off hand?
The one-handed issue pertains to all of us, but for those of you who carry in condition 3, how do you plan to chamber that precious first round if you are so injured? Have you practiced this technique (with an unloaded firearm, of course) so you know it works?
This strikes me as a good place to use snap-caps. You'll need at least one in your magazine to practice with, since an empty mag will not do for this kind of drill.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
fastbolt said ....
I always relish input from those with way more experience than me - and even more so when well written and readable. This sort of input is thought provoking ... makes me question just where I DO stand with my own skills.
Yet another thing that makes THR such a great meeting place of shooting minds.
And that is good ..... compacency is a dangerous friend (enemy!).
Far from it ...... I also enjoyed that offering too.
I always relish input from those with way more experience than me - and even more so when well written and readable. This sort of input is thought provoking ... makes me question just where I DO stand with my own skills.
Yet another thing that makes THR such a great meeting place of shooting minds.
And that is good ..... compacency is a dangerous friend (enemy!).
ChopperKen
Member
I'm new here and just posted about cocked & locked carry,
I was told to do a search and I noticed this post...
Most informative reading....
Watch-6 & Fastbolt's reply's have helped me make up my mind on my first ccw weapon
Thanks, Ken
I was told to do a search and I noticed this post...
Most informative reading....
Watch-6 & Fastbolt's reply's have helped me make up my mind on my first ccw weapon
Thanks, Ken
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Welcome Ken ..... Good place eh?!
Good place eh?!ChopperKen
Member
Yup! Good place P95carry,
Stumbled into it a few days ago while looking for info on the Springfield V-10
Most info I've seen in one spot in a long time. And many years of gun knowlege to mine from people.
I may drive them crazy before I'm educated
Ken
Stumbled into it a few days ago while looking for info on the Springfield V-10
Most info I've seen in one spot in a long time. And many years of gun knowlege to mine from people.
I may drive them crazy before I'm educated
Ken
fastbolt
Member
Thanks guys, but remember not to take too much of what I say all THAT seriously, as I'm nobody's "expert" ...
Series 70 makes some very relevent points, and in a straight-forward, concise manner ... as opposed to my "wordiness", being charitably inclined toward describing myself.
I'd like to offer a couple of other thoughts based upon observations from instances where handguns had to be drawn, unexpectedly and under a bit of "duress", if you will ...
Even otherwise range-competent folks can improperly manipulate a semiauto pistol to chamber a round. The best and most sure way to chamber a semiauto pistol is to start from a locked-open slide ... the particular preferred method of RELEASING the slide is often the subject of debate, but that's another subject. Let's just say that "riding" the slide forward while chambering a round is a fairly (and unfortunately) common "practice" among some folks, and yes, this CAN ... and DOES ... introduce the potential for shooter-induced feeding malfunctions that shouldn't ordinarily occur. But they DO, and under the minimal stress of range conditions.
Amplify that, and the potential loss of fine motor skills, under actual stress induced by a deadly force encounter ... and then ask yourself if your level of training and skills TRULY serves you in the manner you'd desire in this respect, utilizing the method of loading the first round from the magazine using a 2-handed manipulation. I certainly can't answer that for you ...
CAN someone easily "clear" (resolve) this sort of shooter-induced feeding malfunction? Sure ...
But, can it be done within a reasonably useful time "limit" when the puckering "6 foot-3 second-3 shot" life & death deadly force situation unexpectedly occurs? Hmmm ... Risk assessment issues are involved here ... Choose wisely. You may only get ONE shot at it ... no pun intended.
Personally, the loss of ONE round isn't a critical issue in my preparation. Not when some of the various guns I carry have ammunition loads ranging from 6+1 to 15+1 ... and not when I can quickly and accurately get the first 4-6 rounds onto my designated "threat target" ... all things working properly, anyway. But it IS a point to consider in everyone else's personal preparations ...
One-handed issues? Oh yeah ...
Fending off an "immediate & imminent" threat in VERY close proximity ... 6 feet or MUCH less ... clearing yourself from a sudden obstruction being "placed" in your way (closing structure or vehicle door, "trapping you"), using a flashlight, a cellphone, shoving a loved one to cover, catching yourself while falling (more common than some folks tend to realize, it seems), and many other occurrences which just aren't often discussed in some common "training venues" ... can certainly cause anything from unexpectedly "distracting" you from your ability to quickly bring your support hand into play, or even prevent your reaching with both hands, and/or injure your support hand.
Ever try the often discussed & illustrated (in some gun magazine articles) method of chambering a round in your semiauto pistol by using the heel of your shoe ... your thick and conveniently free-of-clothing-and-other-obstructions belt ... a handy corner ... or whatever ... to "snag" the rear sights and exert proper force to retract & then release of your pistol's slide to chamber the round? While someone is otherwise quite busily trying to "tag" you with their own choice of deadly force?
Not fun, and not quite as easy as it would often appear ... or the magazine authors would have us believe ... especially if you're "distracted" by a deadly force attack ... CLOSE UP and HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ... not to mention injured.
Just something to think about ... although the techniques can certainly be performed when done so SAFELY on a controlled range environment, using a weapon EMPTY of live ammunition. (Do yourself a favor and make sure your wntire person is clear of any live ammunition, and don't wear spare magazines not specifically dedicated to also containing ONLY dummy rounds, snap caps, or whatever your preferred SAFE & INERT training replacement for ammunition may be ... People have died by "forgetting" they also had live ammunition on or about their person while engaging in some types of firearms training where live ammunition wasn't intended to be used ... but somehow ended up in someone's weapon, with tragic results. Use caution ... and then be VERY careful anyway.
As humans we're often creatures of instinct, habit, patterned repsonse, etc., etc ...
If a loud noise unexpectedly occurs RIGHT NEXT TO US ... like say, within 0-6 feet, maybe? ... AND something triggers an emotional response from us, like say during an instinctual "fight or flight" response ... AND we perceive some immediate physical threat (movement) to ourselves ...
Well, anybody here NOT perform some variation of an instinctual duck and/or cover-with-your arm & hand(s), ward-the-hell-off reflexive movement? That takes critical time, you know? As does the Observation, Orient (to the exact circumstance & threat), Decide (if you're able to get past the implicit "denial" issue ... "THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING TO ME" ... at least in enough time to reach the next step, which is ... Act. (OODA, even if you're not engaging in aerial combat.)
Overcoming our basic primal emotional, psychological and physical responses DOES take some rather specific ... not to mention properly executed ... training. And this training is often considered to be of a perishable nature, so it may NEED to be properly maintained ...
What's in YOUR wallet? Sorry, couldn't resist.
I should say that since I've carried a DA/SA service weapon(s) for the last 13+ years, and revolvers prior to that ... many years ago I decided to retire my 1911's to the safe, for the most part, when it came to off duty weapons. I've spent uncounted hours and rounds performing a draw, presentation & fire with a DA first shot. This created the situation where I ooccasionally failed to remember to disengage the thumb safety of my cherished 1911 ... with which I was still VERY accurate with, though ... but since I wasn't using the same cocked & locked weapon ALL the time, I was beginning to "lose" my edge in automatically removing the thumb safety.
Hey, I'm what's fashionably called a "utilitarian shooter", I guess, nowadays ... meaning I only carry and use a weapon for "work", which includes protection of myself and others. I don't compete. I reached the point where I had to admit that I might NOT be able to get my first round off when carrying a cocked & locked weapon on my own time, not after spending so much training time & effort to make a Fast & Accurate first DA shot, and subsequent SA shots, with my service weapons ... and my other DA/SA off duty weapons.
Now, if we get approval to carry optionally purchased weapons on duty again ... and I decide to carry a 1911-type weapon again ... I'll probably "retire" my other on & off duty weapons and focus exclusively and my 1911-related skills, again ... with the sole exception of my favored 642-1, of which the specific grip shape, trigger location & "feel" and DAO-only operation doesn't seem to interfere with MY 1911 skills. No reason I can explain. Maybe "sufficient" years and a deeply ingrained and pattered physical response. Who knows? Go figure ...
Like I have any of the answers ... yeah, right ... dream on ...
Interesting thread, though ...
Series 70 makes some very relevent points, and in a straight-forward, concise manner ... as opposed to my "wordiness", being charitably inclined toward describing myself.
I'd like to offer a couple of other thoughts based upon observations from instances where handguns had to be drawn, unexpectedly and under a bit of "duress", if you will ...
Even otherwise range-competent folks can improperly manipulate a semiauto pistol to chamber a round. The best and most sure way to chamber a semiauto pistol is to start from a locked-open slide ... the particular preferred method of RELEASING the slide is often the subject of debate, but that's another subject. Let's just say that "riding" the slide forward while chambering a round is a fairly (and unfortunately) common "practice" among some folks, and yes, this CAN ... and DOES ... introduce the potential for shooter-induced feeding malfunctions that shouldn't ordinarily occur. But they DO, and under the minimal stress of range conditions.
Amplify that, and the potential loss of fine motor skills, under actual stress induced by a deadly force encounter ... and then ask yourself if your level of training and skills TRULY serves you in the manner you'd desire in this respect, utilizing the method of loading the first round from the magazine using a 2-handed manipulation. I certainly can't answer that for you ...
CAN someone easily "clear" (resolve) this sort of shooter-induced feeding malfunction? Sure ...
But, can it be done within a reasonably useful time "limit" when the puckering "6 foot-3 second-3 shot" life & death deadly force situation unexpectedly occurs? Hmmm ... Risk assessment issues are involved here ... Choose wisely. You may only get ONE shot at it ... no pun intended.
Personally, the loss of ONE round isn't a critical issue in my preparation. Not when some of the various guns I carry have ammunition loads ranging from 6+1 to 15+1 ... and not when I can quickly and accurately get the first 4-6 rounds onto my designated "threat target" ... all things working properly, anyway. But it IS a point to consider in everyone else's personal preparations ...
One-handed issues? Oh yeah ...
Fending off an "immediate & imminent" threat in VERY close proximity ... 6 feet or MUCH less ... clearing yourself from a sudden obstruction being "placed" in your way (closing structure or vehicle door, "trapping you"), using a flashlight, a cellphone, shoving a loved one to cover, catching yourself while falling (more common than some folks tend to realize, it seems), and many other occurrences which just aren't often discussed in some common "training venues" ... can certainly cause anything from unexpectedly "distracting" you from your ability to quickly bring your support hand into play, or even prevent your reaching with both hands, and/or injure your support hand.
Ever try the often discussed & illustrated (in some gun magazine articles) method of chambering a round in your semiauto pistol by using the heel of your shoe ... your thick and conveniently free-of-clothing-and-other-obstructions belt ... a handy corner ... or whatever ... to "snag" the rear sights and exert proper force to retract & then release of your pistol's slide to chamber the round? While someone is otherwise quite busily trying to "tag" you with their own choice of deadly force?
Not fun, and not quite as easy as it would often appear ... or the magazine authors would have us believe ... especially if you're "distracted" by a deadly force attack ... CLOSE UP and HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ... not to mention injured.
Just something to think about ... although the techniques can certainly be performed when done so SAFELY on a controlled range environment, using a weapon EMPTY of live ammunition. (Do yourself a favor and make sure your wntire person is clear of any live ammunition, and don't wear spare magazines not specifically dedicated to also containing ONLY dummy rounds, snap caps, or whatever your preferred SAFE & INERT training replacement for ammunition may be ... People have died by "forgetting" they also had live ammunition on or about their person while engaging in some types of firearms training where live ammunition wasn't intended to be used ... but somehow ended up in someone's weapon, with tragic results. Use caution ... and then be VERY careful anyway.
As humans we're often creatures of instinct, habit, patterned repsonse, etc., etc ...
If a loud noise unexpectedly occurs RIGHT NEXT TO US ... like say, within 0-6 feet, maybe? ... AND something triggers an emotional response from us, like say during an instinctual "fight or flight" response ... AND we perceive some immediate physical threat (movement) to ourselves ...
Well, anybody here NOT perform some variation of an instinctual duck and/or cover-with-your arm & hand(s), ward-the-hell-off reflexive movement? That takes critical time, you know? As does the Observation, Orient (to the exact circumstance & threat), Decide (if you're able to get past the implicit "denial" issue ... "THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING TO ME" ... at least in enough time to reach the next step, which is ... Act. (OODA, even if you're not engaging in aerial combat.
)Overcoming our basic primal emotional, psychological and physical responses DOES take some rather specific ... not to mention properly executed ... training. And this training is often considered to be of a perishable nature, so it may NEED to be properly maintained ...
What's in YOUR wallet? Sorry, couldn't resist.
I should say that since I've carried a DA/SA service weapon(s) for the last 13+ years, and revolvers prior to that ... many years ago I decided to retire my 1911's to the safe, for the most part, when it came to off duty weapons. I've spent uncounted hours and rounds performing a draw, presentation & fire with a DA first shot. This created the situation where I ooccasionally failed to remember to disengage the thumb safety of my cherished 1911 ... with which I was still VERY accurate with, though ... but since I wasn't using the same cocked & locked weapon ALL the time, I was beginning to "lose" my edge in automatically removing the thumb safety.
Hey, I'm what's fashionably called a "utilitarian shooter", I guess, nowadays ... meaning I only carry and use a weapon for "work", which includes protection of myself and others. I don't compete. I reached the point where I had to admit that I might NOT be able to get my first round off when carrying a cocked & locked weapon on my own time, not after spending so much training time & effort to make a Fast & Accurate first DA shot, and subsequent SA shots, with my service weapons ... and my other DA/SA off duty weapons.
Now, if we get approval to carry optionally purchased weapons on duty again ... and I decide to carry a 1911-type weapon again ... I'll probably "retire" my other on & off duty weapons and focus exclusively and my 1911-related skills, again ... with the sole exception of my favored 642-1, of which the specific grip shape, trigger location & "feel" and DAO-only operation doesn't seem to interfere with MY 1911 skills. No reason I can explain. Maybe "sufficient" years and a deeply ingrained and pattered physical response. Who knows? Go figure ...
Like I have any of the answers ... yeah, right ... dream on ...
Interesting thread, though ...
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cornbread2
member
I would not want a carry gun I did not trust to be safe with a loaded chamber.
Not just for my safety but for the safety of those I come in contact with.
The pistol has to be drop safe to prevent any chance of an AD.
My training will prevent the ND.
Not just for my safety but for the safety of those I come in contact with.
The pistol has to be drop safe to prevent any chance of an AD.
My training will prevent the ND.
fourdeuce82d
Member
Hey dave- no, I don't fell uneasy carrying con 1- do so everyday.
I WOULD feel uncomfortable carrying IWB at 1:00. seems to me it breaks Rule Two in a very significant way. Certainly, My ND into my groin, and down out the back of my leg went a long way toward shaping that viewpoint.
An ND, arguably enough, that could have been prevented had I been in Con2. But...Con 2 sets up room for errors as well- i.e. having to charge the weapon in a high stress environment, potential for error AFTER the gun fight, when your automatic thought- "Oops- loaded chamber- better make it safe" could result in fumbling etc.
I prefer to carry con1- I never wander around thinking I have a "safe", unchambered gun, which is actually loaded. There (edit- insert word "is") never, ever, any question about the status of the gun(s) it is ALWAYS hot, sorta like Rule One- All guns are always loaded.
Do what you're most comfortable doing- they are pluses and minuses to eigther approach. I would recomend at least TRYING IWB at 4:00...pointing a gun at your goodies every day just can't be a good idea....*grin*
best,
ms
I WOULD feel uncomfortable carrying IWB at 1:00. seems to me it breaks Rule Two in a very significant way. Certainly, My ND into my groin, and down out the back of my leg went a long way toward shaping that viewpoint.
An ND, arguably enough, that could have been prevented had I been in Con2. But...Con 2 sets up room for errors as well- i.e. having to charge the weapon in a high stress environment, potential for error AFTER the gun fight, when your automatic thought- "Oops- loaded chamber- better make it safe" could result in fumbling etc.
I prefer to carry con1- I never wander around thinking I have a "safe", unchambered gun, which is actually loaded. There (edit- insert word "is") never, ever, any question about the status of the gun(s) it is ALWAYS hot, sorta like Rule One- All guns are always loaded.
Do what you're most comfortable doing- they are pluses and minuses to eigther approach. I would recomend at least TRYING IWB at 4:00...pointing a gun at your goodies every day just can't be a good idea....*grin*
best,
ms
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fastbolt
Member
You know folks ...
If someone is feeling too "conflicted" about "safely" carrying a SA operated semiauto pistol ... revolvers are still a VERY acceptable choice for defensive weapons, even nowadays ... and they make some nicely made 5-6 shot .45 ACP or .45 Colt revolvers that are reasonably sized, not to mention 7 & 8 shot medium caliber revolvers ...
I've worked with some CCW folks that were VERY respectably skilled with J,K, L & N-framed revolvers, and similar sized revolvers of other makes.
If someone is feeling too "conflicted" about "safely" carrying a SA operated semiauto pistol ... revolvers are still a VERY acceptable choice for defensive weapons, even nowadays ... and they make some nicely made 5-6 shot .45 ACP or .45 Colt revolvers that are reasonably sized, not to mention 7 & 8 shot medium caliber revolvers ...
I've worked with some CCW folks that were VERY respectably skilled with J,K, L & N-framed revolvers, and similar sized revolvers of other makes.
fix
Member
Dave,
I don't see any issues with condition 3 using the method of carry that you use. It is not really a method that lends itself to quick presentation. However, I can draw and present my weapon from my IWB almost as quickly as I can move my hand. In this case, I feel like condition 1 gives me a significant advantage. Obviously this is a moot point with anything other than a SA pistol.
I don't see any issues with condition 3 using the method of carry that you use. It is not really a method that lends itself to quick presentation. However, I can draw and present my weapon from my IWB almost as quickly as I can move my hand. In this case, I feel like condition 1 gives me a significant advantage. Obviously this is a moot point with anything other than a SA pistol.
sm
member
A very Good thread Indeed!
I will admit I'm not the smartest and most experienced fellow here. I can only offer my experiences and insights. I'm interested and keep learning tho'.
I was raised in a time where folks were raised with firearms, and well this was passed on. We had folks that knew about firearms and shooting before they entered the Miltary and/or LEO. These folks shared when returned or whatever very useful insights and more lessons.
Maint, practice/training, familiarty of the firearm was promoted. Most guns were "stock" for lack of a better term, and one was taught to use as designed. C&L for 1911 and DA for revolvers for example.
So this is how I was raised and taught. Now in my limited experiences in teaching and sharing with students, I have continued "in my thinking", and shared accordingly. Yeah I had to accept new designs and materials as well.
I don't believe in , suggest, or recommend "crutches". Learn the basics first, if you learn something that helps that is safe...Ok...but don't become dependant...remember and practice the basics...4 Rules.
Now I have in an CONTROLLED demonstration, using a primed case only, observing 4 Rules shown say for instance why a 1.5 trigger pull is not for CCW. Attached a trigger shoe and simulated inserting into a waistband or holster the gun can go off. ( styrofoam dummy with belt, pants, shirt, with/w/o holster) . Take a gun semi or revo that on purpose my gunsmith buddy "monkeyed with" to instill why one does not do everyting one reads or hears about.
I don't care what a student/person carries, prefers, or uses for CCW/HD. I do care the student is familar, practices and maintains that choice. My criteria has always been:
Guns fits shooter regardless of platform, they are safely able to operate , with ammo reliable everytime in said gun, of largest caliber that affords quick accurate hits.
Good belt and holster for the weapon to meet the need/task.
I don't bash peoples choices. I will criticize an "unsafe" gun be it too light a trigger or those few firearms that are , how shall we say, "very poor metallury and design built to sell for a real low price and not for shooting" *ahem* You know of what I speak.
Other than that, I don't care. I have my druthers, people have a right to theirs. If it is purple with yellow polka-dats, and meets criteria...I won't bash. Good for them.
If a guy wants to keep the round under the hammer empty on a revo kept in desk...so?
I will admit I'm not the smartest and most experienced fellow here. I can only offer my experiences and insights. I'm interested and keep learning tho'.
I was raised in a time where folks were raised with firearms, and well this was passed on. We had folks that knew about firearms and shooting before they entered the Miltary and/or LEO. These folks shared when returned or whatever very useful insights and more lessons.
Maint, practice/training, familiarty of the firearm was promoted. Most guns were "stock" for lack of a better term, and one was taught to use as designed. C&L for 1911 and DA for revolvers for example.
So this is how I was raised and taught. Now in my limited experiences in teaching and sharing with students, I have continued "in my thinking", and shared accordingly. Yeah I had to accept new designs and materials as well.
I don't believe in , suggest, or recommend "crutches". Learn the basics first, if you learn something that helps that is safe...Ok...but don't become dependant...remember and practice the basics...4 Rules.
Now I have in an CONTROLLED demonstration, using a primed case only, observing 4 Rules shown say for instance why a 1.5 trigger pull is not for CCW. Attached a trigger shoe and simulated inserting into a waistband or holster the gun can go off. ( styrofoam dummy with belt, pants, shirt, with/w/o holster) . Take a gun semi or revo that on purpose my gunsmith buddy "monkeyed with" to instill why one does not do everyting one reads or hears about.
I don't care what a student/person carries, prefers, or uses for CCW/HD. I do care the student is familar, practices and maintains that choice. My criteria has always been:
Guns fits shooter regardless of platform, they are safely able to operate , with ammo reliable everytime in said gun, of largest caliber that affords quick accurate hits.
Good belt and holster for the weapon to meet the need/task.
I don't bash peoples choices. I will criticize an "unsafe" gun be it too light a trigger or those few firearms that are , how shall we say, "very poor metallury and design built to sell for a real low price and not for shooting" *ahem* You know of what I speak.
Other than that, I don't care. I have my druthers, people have a right to theirs. If it is purple with yellow polka-dats, and meets criteria...I won't bash. Good for them.
If a guy wants to keep the round under the hammer empty on a revo kept in desk...so?
fastbolt
Member
sm,
Good posting.
Ditto ...
Funny story here, though, related to the empty revolver cylinder charge hole,which you might enjoy. Off topic, so I apologize.
Anyway, quite a number of years ago, when we carried revolvers, a fellow I knew used to keep a $100 bill in the hole under his hammer. His way of hiding that play money from his wife. I'm led to believe his wallet and pant's pockets weren't secure enough ... ahem ... but ...
One day, at the qualification range ... Yep, you guessed it. It had eventually worked its way from the cylinder hole and down into the barrel ... compliments of gravity ... and ...
... One hundred dollars worth of confetti with the very first round fired.
Gotta love some folks.
fb
Good posting.
Ditto ...
Funny story here, though, related to the empty revolver cylinder charge hole,which you might enjoy. Off topic, so I apologize.
Anyway, quite a number of years ago, when we carried revolvers, a fellow I knew used to keep a $100 bill in the hole under his hammer. His way of hiding that play money from his wife. I'm led to believe his wallet and pant's pockets weren't secure enough ... ahem ... but ...
One day, at the qualification range ... Yep, you guessed it. It had eventually worked its way from the cylinder hole and down into the barrel ... compliments of gravity ... and ...
... One hundred dollars worth of confetti with the very first round fired.
Gotta love some folks.
fb
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Oh my .......
Thx for that!Good hiding place - in principle! ................ BUT!!
fastbolt
Member
You're welcome to the chuckle ...
Since the owner of the shredded $100 bill was the sort of fellow that could make a penny squeal from being pinched until it changed color, you can well imagine the noise he made when he realized what it was that was blown all to hell and gone downrange ...
Some folks laugh till they cry, and then some just start crying ...
Since the owner of the shredded $100 bill was the sort of fellow that could make a penny squeal from being pinched until it changed color, you can well imagine the noise he made when he realized what it was that was blown all to hell and gone downrange ...
Some folks laugh till they cry, and then some just start crying ...
BluesBear
member
Fastbolt,
Very, very good posts. Extremely valid points all.
Thank you for sharing with us. I hope you post more often.
Very, very good posts. Extremely valid points all.
Thank you for sharing with us. I hope you post more often.
varoadking
Member
I'd rather the bad guy get me than shoot my nuts off. I still use them occasionally.
You must not be married.
You must not be married.
sm
member
fastbolt, thank you for the compliment.
I appreciate your postings as well.
confetti...hmm...
aha!...that's where ... " not worth 2 cents" , "ever seen a grown man cry", "double action"...originates from... right?
Learn new something everyday around here..
I appreciate your postings as well.
confetti...hmm...
aha!...that's where ... " not worth 2 cents" , "ever seen a grown man cry", "double action"...originates from... right?
Learn new something everyday around here..
fastbolt
Member
You know what? There are times I'd pay good money for Spell Check on this forum.
I just read one of my previous posts and had to make numerous changes, spelling & grammer corrections, etc. I need to take more time to proof read what I think I'm writing, huh?
Later ...
Dammit ... edited THIS post to add an ommitted word ... Sigh ...:banghead:
I just read one of my previous posts and had to make numerous changes, spelling & grammer corrections, etc. I need to take more time to proof read what I think I'm writing, huh?
Later ...
Dammit ... edited THIS post to add an ommitted word ... Sigh ...:banghead:
BluesBear
member
All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
No worries Fastbolt.
The rest of all do it all of the time too.
I just go back and fix mine and say "Etided fro Speeling"
No worries Fastbolt.
The rest of all do it all of the time too.
I just go back and fix mine and say "Etided fro Speeling"
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