How Much Ammo is Too Much

[SC Shooter]

This is a very well thought out article. Thanks for publishing it. One point though. We all discuss the fact that those on the left really don't understand the recreational shooter, so they can't understand what constitutes a "large quantity" of ammunition. Unfortunately the same is true for many on the right. Listen to many of the news people on the more conservative outlets, and even many of our conservative politicians and it is obvious they are very uninformed about weapons, and shooting.

 

[Apachedriver]

However much floats your boat. If it sinks your boat, it might be too much.

I knew a colonel who, talking about guns and ammo, said, "You should own however much floats your boat. If it sinks your boat, write down the grid coordinate. Then get a new boat so you can visit that cache site when needed."

 

[luzyfuerza]

Lots of people think that ammo is as dangerous as the guns that fire it.

Here's an example of this kind of thinking from an article about a muslim woman who is "tired of [the] need to stick up for her religion":

Gun policies
Ul-Hasan, who has been a delegate to the Democratic National Convention, said the frequency of the acts of mass violence requires changes in the nation's gun policies.

"We Americans must take action. We must not allow anyone except government, police, SWAT, etc., to have assault weapons, which are truly the 'weapons of mass destruction' in our country," she wrote.

People should have the right under the Second Amendment to purchase handguns for personal protection, Ul-Hasan said, but she questions why people who buy mass quantities of ammunition do not endure additional scrutiny.

"Endless ammunition for these weapons is not going to be used to protect yourself, unless you are being attacked by an army of people," she said.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=37673062&nid=148&fm=home_page&s_cid=toppick2


Non-shooters don't understand that the overwhelming majority of ammunition is used for: 1) competition, 2) practice, 3) hunting, 4) load development and testing, and 5) many more safe and legal purposes, including plenty of just plain fun. They also don't understand that becoming competent with a firearm takes good instruction and lots of live fire practice.

I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure that the ratio of rounds fired safely for fun versus the number fired during commission of a crime or terrorist attack is something like a zillion to one! Maybe ten zillion to one!

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

That is an illustration of a person who is completely ignorant. Going to the range every weekend with multiple guns requires alot of ammo.

I don't stockpile ammo so I can defend myself from an Army, lmao. What an idiot.

She's also living in one of the most pro-gun states in the Union, lol.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Buy it cheap and stack it deep is the only doctrine that makes sense if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds annually. It's a consumable commodity that doesn't spoil and never decreases in price (falling most of the way back down from huge banic spikes doesn't count as decreasing). I'll easily burn through 1,000 rounds of 5.56 in 2 or 3 range outings, which is inside of a month during the summer. If I didn't buy a case or two whenever I find it cheap, I'd have spent considerably more money. My last case of 5.56, American Eagle M855, was $308 shipped. Think you can go buy for that price right now? Good luck. Best you'll do ATM is probably $0.38/rd after tax and/or shipping, which means if me and a guy who lives by your proscription go out and burn a case, I was able to pay my phone bill with the money I saved by buying ahead of time at a better price and stocking plenty. And that doesn't even touch the scenario when a banic sends 5.56 up near or over $1/rd.

If you shoot 1000 rounds a month and you are serious about saving money why don't you reload?

That would save you half of what you're paying for factory ammo and you could pay your phone bill and buy the new barrel that you need every 4-5 months.

Fudd? What's that? Is that a hunter?

 

[thecarfarmer]

Funny thing... just last night, I went and looked at how much (and how little) ammo I have.

Counted up about 1k rounds of factory ammo in 9mm, and a few bricks of .22LR. There were a few hundred more rounds divided between 6.5mm Jap, .45ACP, .380 (stockpiling when I get it cheap for my daughter), .25ACP, .38SPL, .38S&W, and Makarov. Maybe another thousand all put together.

Now, the reason it seems funny to me that this doesn't seem like a lot of ammo, is that for most of my life that woulda' seemed like some kind of James Bond stash!

In 2010, my eighteen year old daughter told me she wanted to get some kind of a gun called an "AR-15". She had to explain to me what it was.

A couple days later she came home with a firearm called a "10/22", which was a cheaper gun that shot a cheaper round. When she showed me a 525 round box of ammo, I asked her why she needed that many. Seemed like a lot to me. I didn't say anything more about it, but thought it seemed a little weird that anybody would really felt they needed that many bullets!

So, how did I go from being a properly indoctrinated gun-fearing native Seattleite to getting my head straight about all this? My kid took me to the gun range with her boyfriend and his dad.

Within a month, I had gone to the pawn shop and bought my first pistol. Within a year I was pressing out .45 and 9x18 on a Rock Crusher.



Sure, there are a lot of people on the left side who are kinda' "lost causes", but I think the best thing a guy can do is be ready to take anybody who's not firearm phobic to a gravel pit, hand 'em a Woodsman or a Single Six and a brick of .22, and let 'em shoot some bowling pins.

They may end up buying a gun on the trip home, or may never shoot again. But, if we introduce 'em to our hobby in a mellow, non-intimidating way, we will have at least maybe planted the image of a guy having a half dozen guns an a couple thousand rounds of ammo as being a normal thing.

Just my .02.

-Bill

 

[thump_rrr]

That one broke me up.

I didn't really think too much about the article. Mostly because there are very few people who shoot competitively and .22 LR isn't a centerfire round. It's a plinker/rec round. So dismiss both of those arguments. I don't have 1000 rounds of anything and I shoot once a week. If you have 1000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammo you fall into the comp shooter, survivalist, or jihadist category. I don't know anyone who falls in any of those categories.

Sorry, just MHO.

With an opinion like that you are part of the problem more than you are part of the solution.
I only started shooting 5 years ago and have built up a nice collection in this short period of time.
I work in a field which keeps me very busy between spring and fall but less busy in the winter.
My winter hobby is reloading so I buy components and reload all winter for the following 9 months. I am neither a Jihadist, survivalist, not a competitor but I have substantially more than 1,000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammo on hand.
To give you an idea when .223 components were scarce after Sandy Hook I was buying crates of 1,120 loaded rounds here in Canada for $279.00 and when you bought 3 you got a 4th free.

Economics and availability drive people to buy at certain times.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If you shoot 1000 rounds a month and you are serious about saving money why don't you reload?

That would save you half of what you're paying for factory ammo and you could pay your phone bill and buy the new barrel that you need every 4-5 months.

I do reload. You're clearly not familiar with current component pricing, though. Assuming you already have the brass, 5.56 is going to run you about $0.24/rd, maybe down to $0.21 if you buy 10K+ in components in an order. Takes time with having to swage primer pockets, sort for Berdan primed or damaged brass, etc. I make $65/hr; my time is better spent earning than saving where bulk ammo is concerned.

Fudd? What's that? Is that a hunter?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fudd

 

[AzShooter1]

5000 rounds wouldn't make a dent in my garage compared to the ammo and components I have. I enjoy shooting. It relaxes me and I see a bunch of people every time I go to the range.

Shooting is catching on. More people with guns keep showing up. It's fun to show off my guns and to talk to them and let them try my stuff. It's a great pleasure when their children want to test fire one of my guns.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The LA Times article was obviously an AG piece from start to finish. The OP was trying to counter that with his blog post but missed the mark also. To begin with, he used .22 as an example. .22 is a plinker/rec cartridge, the terrorists didn't own any .22's. He also used shotgun shells as an example. I don't believe the terrorists had any shotguns or shot trap or skeet. Then he went on to build a list of firearms that a normal hunter/rec shooter might own. That wasn't the case with these two terrorists either. They had .223 rifles and 9mm pistols. Who uses those? That would be LEO's and the military mostly. When I say mostly I mean that when you combine the amount of ammo that they use with the civilian population they would be the largest consumers of that ammo. When you refute a story like this one from the LAT you need to be a little more specific about why someone might have that much ammo for the firearms they actually have. Talking about plinker ammo, hunting rifle cartridges, revolver cartridges and shotgun shells isn't really to the point.

The point is they had 6000 rds of ammo for two types of firearms. A comp shooter may have that many rds stockpiled for a specific rifle or pistol but most rec shooters won't. That's about $2000 worth of ammo. It would literally take years for the average rec shooter to go through that much .223 or 9mm ammo. I think that was the point of the LAT story but the writer obviously wasn't a rec shooter so she had no clue how to make a legitimate point about too much ammo. I can spot those types a mile away and generally don't even read that garbage.

The OP's rebuttal fell flat also. Apples and oranges.

How much ammo one actually needs and how much ammo one wants to have on hand is subjective at best. How I feel about it doesn't really matter. If you want to stockpile $2000 worth of .223 ammo in your house go for it. All I'm saying is most people with a few cheap AR's and pistols aren't going to have that much ammo laying around.

If those two terrorists had survived and were tried I'm pretty sure that would have been used as evidence to convict them, given the fact that they weren't competitive shooters. These days, if you're involved in a shooting, the question will always come up in court, what are you doing with that much ammo? Might look subversive to a jury, HLS or local LE, especially in CA. But if you aren't worried about it then I guess it's no big deal.

I must be a Fudd.

 

[Teachu2]

I didn't really think too much about the article

I could not agree more.

Pretty much every vendor gives a price break for quantities of 1000 rounds. After living through the last panic, and watching people pay way too much for way too little for way too long, my minimum monthly order has been 1000 rounds in calibers I shoot often. It's better than money in the bank.

 

[MachIVshooter]

They had .223 rifles and 9mm pistols. Who uses those? That would be LEO's and the military mostly. When I say mostly I mean that when you combine the amount of ammo that they use with the civilian population they would be the largest consumers of that ammo.

Pure conjecture that is not even remotely close to accurate.

There are many millions of 5.56mm rifles and 9mm pistols owned by US citizens who are not LE or military. They are the two most popular chamberings besides .22 LR, accounting for over 30% of US ammo sales by revenue. US Civilians consume billions of rounds annually.

The point is they had 6000 rds of ammo for two types of firearms. A comp shooter may have that many rds stockpiled for a specific rifle or pistol but most rec shooters won't. That's about $2000 worth of ammo.

Wrong again. I guarantee you there are many members here who have at least 6,000 rounds of each caliber they shoot frequently, and many of those who do not have no aversion to such stocks, but simply lack the discretionary funds to do so.

I must be a Fudd I guess.

I'd say you've confirmed that in spades.

 

[jarhead]

"Enough" is such a relative term... For just .22lr alone I have about 2,500 rounds. I really enjoy shooting rim fire steel challenge matches and try to attend 1-2 matches each month. I also have twin 7-year old's who are really getting into enjoying shooting .22 rifles.

I have found myself skipping some rim fire shooting matches each month, because I want to be sure I have enough "stock" to never miss an outing with my boys - since .22 Ammo isn't plentiful, shooting 250-300 for a fun match is hard to justify if I don't know I can replace that .22 Ammo stock. The last thing I want to tell my children is that I cannot spend quality time with them at the range because I used up all the .22 ammo... The quality time with my children is more important than enjoying the matches.

So, in my case, 5,000 rounds of .22 would be my comfort level to both spend the quality time with my boys AND be able to shoot some rim fire matches... Knowing I can pick up some .22 "here & there" to replenish my stock.

I have quite a bit of other handgun & rifle center fire ammo... But for me it's easy to understand how a mild/moderate shooter could easily have over 10,000 rounds in stock.

I have plenty of money in the bank, but I don't go blow it just because I have it - I try to ensure I have plenty set back for dry spells and I don't keep just enough money to get by for a month or two because I'm never positive it will be easy to replace.

 

[yugorpk]

I didnt think I had that much until I started packing everything up for a move. Probably a good 12K rounds mostly centerfire rifle. You lose track of it when you run a progressive press. That doesnt include components for reloading.

 

[CoalTrain49]

There are many millions of 5.56mm rifles and 9mm pistols owned by US citizens who are not LE or military. They are the two most popular chamberings besides .22 LR, accounting for over 30% of US ammo sales by revenue. US Civilians consume billions of rounds annually.

How many billions? You do know of course that the US military manufactures its own ammo in a facility in VA. Civilians are paying .30 a round for it. The military is making it for about .10 a round or possibly less because they make their own powder and brass. Your statement would lead people to believe that civilians shoot more .223 ammo than the military does. In order to do that they would have to spend at least 3 times as much as the military does.



Here's 350,000 lbs of small arms brass from one lot from one military base.

http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=10413528

There is a base near me that has similar sales several times a year. I know of 4 large bases in the US that have these sales every year. That is millions of lbs of 5.56 and 9mm brass every year.

Post up some pics of all the expended .223 from your range. You don't have any because everyone picks it up and runs home to reload it one round at a time to save money. The military doesn't try to save money, they try to spend it. It isn't their money, it's yours.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I just checked my log book last night, with rifle and pistol, I'm actually going through 1000 rounds/month. I'm purely a recreational shooter that goes big-time on every range trip.

10,000 component bullets is only a 10 month supply for me. Just this last Saturday, it snowed all day, so I spend 4 hours down on the reloading bench banging out 400 rounds total of 5.56, 9mm, and 40 S&W. Winter is a great time to load here.

See where I'm coming from coaltrain?

 

[GBExpat]

Once you advance to the point of buying ammunition by the case you are not phased by quantities in the multi-thousands ... and owners of select-fire weapons take that to a "whole 'nother level".

And for those who are not "into" it, reactions can be ... interesting.

About 15 years ago one of the young guys working for me (who, apparently, was reared in an Anti home) overheard me mention to someone that I had found a good deal on a case of 5.56 ammo.

The whole idea of buying/owning 1000 rounds of ammunition (not to mention the firearm to shoot it) obviously "disturbed him greatly" (the kid almost suffered a meltdown).

I invited him to help me & a few of the other guys shoot some of it, ("I will teach you how to shoot, Paul & I guar-an-tee that you will have a great time!") but he couldn't see past the inherent e-e-e-e-vil of the whole thing.

BTW, I cannot recall the time when I last had only 5000 rounds on-hand. Heck, I remember being delighted when, in ~1978, I scored a couple of (wooden) cases of belted Besa MG ammo at Chespeake Gun Shop.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

Mach IV, not sure where your component prices are coming from, but I'm loading 5.56 quite a bit cheaper than 24 cents/round.

1000 55 grain FMJ second's from RMR = $65
Powder = 8 cents/round
Primers = 3 cents/round

Total cost = 17.5 cents/round, round it up to 18 cents.

Factory Federal XM-193 runs 40 cents/round, so that's a savings of over 50%.

 

[MachIVshooter]

How many billions?

Well, there is no source I'm aware of that accurately tallies those figures in terms of round count and allocation, but in 2012, the civilian firearms and ammunition market was worth about $6B, and ammo accounts for 60-65% of that. That'd be $4B in ammo. If we assume an average PPR of $0.25 (probably high considering rimfire PPR vs. it's share of the market), we could conservatively estimate ~15 billion rounds.

US ammo makers manufacture 4-1/2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, not to mention imports. That's just one cartridge. And .22 accounts for about 11% of ammo sales by revenue.

You do know of course that the US military manufactures its own ammo in a facility in VA.

Nope. Lake City plant in MS manufactures nearly all of the military's small arms ammo. Built by Remington, owned by the government, run by private contractors.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_City_Army_Ammunition_Plant

Civilians are paying .30 a round for it. The military is making it for about .10 a round or possibly less because they make their own powder and brass. Your statement would lead people to believe that civilians shoot more .223 ammo than the military does. In order to do that they would have to spend at least 3 times as much as the military does.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Mach IV, not sure where your component prices are coming from, but I'm loading 5.56 quite a bit cheaper than 24 cents/round.

1000 55 grain FMJ second's from RMR = $65
Powder = 8 cents/round
Primers = 3 cents/round

Total cost = 17.5 cents/round, round it up to 18 cents.

Factory Federal XM-193 runs 40 cents/round, so that's a savings of over 50%.

Don't forget tax or shipping.

Back in 2012, I was loading for those prices or less, when I was able to get pulldown powder for $10/lb shipped by purchasing 16-24 lbs at a time and $70/1000 was average pricing for 55 gr bullets. I haven't seen pulldown surplus powder in a couple years now, and most commercial powders are running $25+ lb before tax or shipping+hazmat. That puts you at $27-$30/lb unless you're buying huge quantities. Even at the lower price, that's $0.09/rd. RMR's price on those "seconds" bullets is also $20-$25 below average for 55 gr. ball. Primers, yes, 3 to 3-1/2 cents/rd.

So, 9¢ powder (if you buy at least 8 lb jugs), 8.5-9¢ bullet if you buy at least 1,000), 3-3.5¢ primer (if you buy at least a carton)= 20.5¢-21.5¢/rd. Hence ~21¢ if you buy in bulk. If you're buying 1 lb powder cans, 500 or fewer bullets at a time, and primers in boxes of 100, you'll be much higher.

And like I said, I buy when the shipped price is quite a bit lower than 40¢/rd. 30-33¢ is acceptable to me for bulk ball in brass cases.

 

[oneounceload]

and most commercial powders are running $25+ lb before tax or shipping+hazmat.

You need to buy in 8# jugs, 2/case; 4 total with a sleeve or two of primers for 1 hazmat shipping fee

 

[X-Rap]

It doesn't matter a hill of beans if the SB terrorists had 10'000 rds in each caliber they can only fire so many from each weapon.
At what point does anyone of sound mind believe they could have competed any attack in which more than a couple hundred rounds could be fired at best.
It would have taken over 300 magazines to have held all the rifle and pistol ammo that the gov/press is so worried about.
It's easy to sensationalize the ammo quantities and it is almost a given any more that the MSM will do it but for practical purposes any individual limit over 2 or 3 hundred would be meaningless in curbing any mass shooting danger. The shooting world needs to understand that quantity of ammo/components means nothing in regards to criminal capability but just adds to what the antis roll out as justification to some other regulation or law.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You need to buy in 8# jugs, 2/case; 4 total with a sleeve or two of primers for 1 hazmat shipping fee

Of course that saves money vs. buying one jug at a time. But you're still looking at ~$25/lb, whether you pay more and get free shipping or buy the powder lower and pay for shipping, and hazmat amortized over 32 pounds for $1.18/lb. I'm not aware of anyone selling 8 pounders of good 5.56 powders like H335 for under $150, and the places that offer free shipping are closer to $190 or $200. Also pretty much no one has it ATM.

Kinda getting sidetracked here, though, as buying bulk components or bulk ammo is the same ends where economy is the reason. Whether your time is worth more working and buying loaded ammo or saving money by reloading is a separate argument entirely.

 

[pharmer]

Buying bulk saves money. About 10 years ago, Bass Pro had WWB 9mm ball @ $3.88/box 50. I took all they had in the store; 13,500 rds in 27- 500 rd cases. I asked for a raincheck but they said no. Put $1100 on my plastic and loaded my little S-10 so the front wheels hardly touched the road. I still have a few hundred rds mixed in my stash. That would probably shoot me up onto some DHS radar screen today, after all I'm white and own guns. Joe

 

[CoalTrain49]

Civilians are paying .30 a round for it. The military is making it for about .10 a round or possibly less because they make their own powder and brass. Your statement would lead people to believe that civilians shoot more .223 ammo than the military does. In order to do that they would have to spend at least 3 times as much as the military does.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/

Military costs are about the same. I missed that one. Still your money.

 

[oneounceload]

But you're still looking at ~$25/lb,

The powders I buy in 8# jugs run closer to $15/lb and I have zero hazmat/shipping as the dealer brings our orders in the same truck as the club's truckload of clay targets.