How much difference in accuracy, Lasers vs open sights

[Big Shrek]

Contemplate this...would a laser help you to practice MORE than you would without it??

If you are going to use one, I do suggest green, good for day or night.
I hate that the red ones are pretty much useless in daylight, which totally hampers their effectiveness.

 

[BCRider]

I've never used a laser at all. But I've been at the range where guys had them on their hand guns and talked with them about it. They pretty much started out with it as a gimmick to try and found that the recoil made the laser wiggle around so much from each shot that it actually slowed down their rate of shots. The mind wanted to wait until the spot was at least mostly stable before it pulled the trigger again.

With iron sights I've practiced rapid shooting and was amazed that at even out to 10 and 12 yards that with the right pacing that I mostly kept all my shots within the 8 inch -0 circle on an IDPA style target. And I was able to shoot much faster than I had seen folks with lasers that were trying the same thing.

This doesn't seem to agree with some of your findings. So I guess that if a shooter thinks that a laser might help that they simply need to try one. But if you do then try it under conditions that closely mimic what would occur in a situation. Don't just call it good when used calmly under range conditions.

 

[jmr40]

I used to think Lasers were a waste of money, till I ended up buying a used gun that had some CT grips on it. I planned on replacing the grips and selling them, until I gave them an honest look. For the guys heavily into shooting games they probably are a waste of money. But for a purely save my butt gun where there are no rules except survive any way you can they are a good idea. I don't think they are any more accurate, but they allow a shooter to make shots from unconventional positions that would never come up in the "games" folks play at the range.

If they were a gimmick you wouldn't see them heavily used by Special Forces units in order to carry out their jobs.

 

[AK103K]

But for a purely save my butt gun where there are no rules except survive any way you can they are a good idea. I don't think they are any more accurate, but they allow a shooter to make shots from unconventional positions that would never come up in the "games" folks play at the range.

I keep hearing people say this, but I have yet to see anyone practicing with them that way. Then again, I really dont see many people practicing "realistically" at the range much without them either.

I suppose like anything else, if youre practicing those type shots on a regular basis, youre OK. If you arent, dont you think youre just hoping it all works out for you?

I would also think that if the lasers are a great as we are told, you would see them being used in the different shooting games. With any type of shooting, speed and good hits, anyway possible, is what its all about, is it not?

If they were a gimmick you wouldn't see them heavily used by Special Forces units in order to carry out their jobs.

Are you talking the designator type lasers on long guns, that are used in conjunction with NV, or are you saying they use them heavily on their handguns?

I dont remember ever seeing them mounted on their handguns.

 

[Sam1911]

My thoughts exactly. If you don't think the "gun games" folks are making the kinds of shots where these might be supposed to help, then you aren't coming to the gun games I play!

And yeah, SF types (and many regular army types, too) use infrared lasers that make shots at night easier with IR goggles, but I don't see much evidence that they're using lasers on handguns (or that they use handguns for much at all) or rifles either when they have the ability to use irons or red dot optics.

 

[hentown]

Can't imagine that you'd need to practice much to put a dot on a target and pull the trigger, regardless of the position from which you were shooting. The point, of course, is that the laser provides a viable indicator of point of impact, whether you are able to use the "correct" grip and stance that you've practiced so much with.

 

[AK103K]

The point, of course, is that the laser provides a viable indicator of point of impact,

Assuming you can always instantly find it, in all lighting conditions and under all circumstances. I found that to not be the case. Other issues also come into play here as well.

My main issue here is, you waste valuable time looking for and trying to confirm that dot, when you know you should be shooting. Doing so, just brings hesitation into the loop for me. Hesitation I dont have without the laser.


I think maybe the question to be asked here should be, how many who go in harms way on a daily basis, and/or teach doing so, advocate its use in that capacity? Do the major schools, or any school for that matter, teach its use, or even address it?

 

[LightningMan]

I have an M&P40c with Tru-Glow 24/7 sights and Crimson Trace grip added too. I have shot mine both ways, using the laser only or the sights only, and can shoot the gun equally well either way. But when practicing drawing my weapon and engaging a target quickly, I do a little better with the sights only, still generally hit the target either way but tend to pull left a little using the laser only. Why keep the laser, well there may be a situation where you may not be able to use your sights, like shooting from an odd position, or for whatever reason not being able to raise my arms to see my sights. For me, I want any advantage I can get. LM

 

[jutinlee]

I have both Tritium and CT laser grip. I practice with both. I believe the laser is an added tool, its not a replacement to the iron sights at all. I
I get irritated seeing people so blatantly disregarding lasers as a gimic. Just bc they aren't for you doesn't mean they don't have their place.
Why did I choose both?
I have the night sights for obvious reasons I won't get into them.
The lasers offer advantages in real life. Maybe not on the target range but in a self defense situation. Picture a thug with a knife is robbing whereever you are and turns to you. You pull your gun. A lot of the times that's enough to deter him. Sometimes he thinks he can close on you faster than you can pull. (He's robbing the joint, obviously he's not smart).
Then he sees your laser run across his chest. Maybe it flashes his eyes and all of a sudden he has an epiphany and this situation is real. Bad guys don't train like we do. He doesn't understand guns like most of the members here do.
He does watch action movies tho. He's seen all those cops and army movies where the laser means the bad guy is about to go down.
Like them or not. The thug recognizes you mean business. When he realizes you have him squarely in your sights.
The laser gives him a reality check.

As most CCWs have heard. Tunnel vision kicks in. Maybe your training has been enough. Maybe it hasn't. Maybe that laser is easier to find then the front sight and maybe it isn't. But, when your the one the bad guys after, will you want to know you had every tool available to you at that moment.
Maybe my scenario is completely wrong and the bad guy gives a <deleted> less about the laser. (forgive the language). Me, I want to know that I had every tool available to me in that moment. If flashing that laser across the bad guy can deter him or aid me in my most desperate moment, I want it.

With all that said, I am a better aim using the irons. But my Crimson Trace laser shows on the silo down the road so brightly that I can tell when I cross over different types of material, my night sights don't do that. Maybe that little trick will come in handy someday.

 

[Sam1911]

Can't imagine that you'd need to practice much to put a dot on a target and pull the trigger, regardless of the position from which you were shooting. The point, of course, is that the laser provides a viable indicator of point of impact, whether you are able to use the "correct" grip and stance that you've practiced so much with.

And therin lies one of the greatest false promises of the concept.

"Hey, I saw the dot, pulled the trigger ... why'd I miss???"

The fundamentals are still just as important, but I don't see these being sold to many folks for whom the fundamentals are well ingrained.

 

[Sam1911]

Y'all do realize that the bad guy seeing the laser and giving up is a movie gimmick, right?

The one person LEAST likely to see the laser dot on the bad guy, IS THE BAD GUY. Unless you use those dramatic smoke makers in your house so he can see the beams flashing through the air, he's not likely to ever notice your laser, at all.

Maybe you'll meet that one in a million bad guy who walks around staring down at his own chest or carries a small mirror so he can make sure there aren't any laser dots "painting" him...

I know Crimson Trace has lots of these stories on their site of how the bad guy "saw the laser and threw up his hands" because he "knew then, I meant business."

Sure, now tell me how you racked your shotgun and the sound made him poop his pants and run straight out through the door of your house like Dino on the Flintstones.


(A pal and I were once "painted" in a dark building with a laser sight. Each of us only noticed when the laser hit the OTHER guy. You really have no idea the dot's on you unless it is literally IN your eyes.)

 

[jutinlee]

Anyone smoke? If you smoke in your house, guess what? You can see the beam.
Or is that only happen at my house?

 

[Sam1911]

You...you...are bringing that up as an argument in favor? Really?

So you might have just had a cig, when the bad guy comes in, and then you can flash your laser and he'll give up? That's a bit of a stretch.

'Sides, statistically, you're going to die of the cancer sticks before any home invaders get ya, so what difference does it make?

 

[Ccctennis]

Laser

I have green flashing laser on two of my in home defense firearms. One thing I find in my practice session is that when you practice snap shooting or shooting from the abdomen. The laser really can help you learn where you actually are pointing the barrel. Sorta like a bore laser helps with general scope sight-in on rifles. In a life and death situation you need to so what's best for you to hit the target. In low light or even low vision situations it can help. I do understand others point of view regarding the brain and how to think when aiming. For me I can put the laser on target faster than any other method. When using the sights I shoot tight groups. When I shoot using the laser as aiming I shoot tight groups. Snap shooting I am less accurate but the laser helps tighten that up quite a bit.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Once upon a time, way back in the 90's, I succumbed to the hype about lasers and bought one for my Beretta 92FS.

A complete waste of my money as far as I am concerned.

Yes, it's a nifty-neato gizmo. Yes, it put the dot on target. Yes, I was able to sight it in at whatever range. But it took LONGER for me to acquire my target with the laser than open sights. And there are optical limitations with the laser as well...such as being able to actually see the dot depending on the color of the target I was shooting at.


My opinion is that it inherently takes LONGER to optically search out, locate, and track the laser dot at any given distance simply because of the biological limitations inherent with visual recognition and tracking at different ranges. The front sight on your pistol, however, is a known distance and position in relation to your eyes and requires very little for your brain to track it. In fact, it's much closer to instinctual proprioception.

Proprioception describes the sensory information that contributes to the sense of position of self and movement. Body position perception occurs both consciously and unconsciously and is tested several ways. Close your eyes and touch your nose...why are you able to do this without actually seeing your finger and tracking it to you nose? Because your brain knows exactly where both of them are and coordinates the muscle movements required to bring them together without having to first interpret visual information.

The sights to one's gun are in a fixed position relative to your hand...and therefore something that the brain can more easily and quickly track because of the brain's kinestheitic knowledge of the limbs attached to the body.

Since the laser dot is tactilely removed from the body, and has a varying range, the brain has to rely much more on processing and interpreting visual information, which takes longer to do because the brain doesn't already have the knowledge of laser sight location already pre-programmed into it like it would for a front sight.

For those who shoot competitively with laser sights and claim comparable times to iron sights, I'd like to test that claim the following way:

1. Remove the iron sights entirely from the guns which are used for laser shooting. This completely eliminates the possibility that iron sights are being used either in part or in whole during the shooting.

2. Vary the distances to the targets at which the shooter is aiming, including non-standard competition ranges to the targets. This would eliminate the possibility that the shooter has trained to a specific skill at a specific distance. For people shooting iron sights, this wouldn't make too much difference. If the laser shooter's claims are true, then it shouldn't make much difference to them either. The clock and the scores will tell the true story.

3. Conduct the shooting comparisons across a large number of competitors. This will minimize the possibility of bias in interpretation of the results by analyzing the data from a larger number of people. This way you're less likely to get results biased one way or the other due to a select few people who may shoot better or worse than the rest.


For what it's worth...I don't think lasers are useless. I think they have their place as one tool among many in our firearms toolbox. They're simply another tool with their own list of pros & cons and are not the ultimate aiming tool public perception makes them out to be.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Lasers on handguns are useful in certain situations. They greatly assist point-shooting at closer ranges where one doesn't shoot from an extended two hand stance. Using a laser also helps when shooting from a retention position. They help the most when shooting with one hand.

At extended ranges on a handgun, I would not rely on them. Easier to use traditional sights than to try to track a little red dot that's suppose to be on your target. In the meantime, you'd get shot.

Oh, and they do not make you shoot any more or less accurate.

 

[jjones45]

Like someone else posted, the only real advantage a laser is the ability to shoot accurately from different position(behind cover, laying down, one handed, and so on....). Also some may argue that you may not have to shoot because the BG will see the laser and equate that with death, but I feel if he doesn't equate death with a gun pointed at him there's no hope for him anyways.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

There are instances where poor eyesight could be aided by a laser. It won't be as fast, but if your eyesight is that poor, a laser might be a good enough compromise to get you hitting the target.

This. I wear glasses, and when a bump in the night happens, my reaction is to grab the light and gun and go. No time to put the eyes on. I can see well enough to know what I'm shooting at if need be, but focusing on the front sight in no light, with only a flashlight is hard for me. In a lighted situation, iron sights get used and are faster than the laser cuz that's how I train.

Ah HA! This is a good one. The laser sight does give you a great dry-fire tool! I highly recommend them for that role.

Definitely the best use. It really does help learn proper trigger press/pull. Helped me tremendously when I first started shooting.

I also find it beneficial when practicing point shooting. I can see exactly where the gun is pointed. Then turn the laser off and practice.

It's just important to not RELY on it as it can inhibit your training by giving you a false sense of skill. Most of the time I forget it's on the gun at all.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Let's put it this way. Lasers on guns are a lot like modern diet pills. Any weight you can loose while taking the pills, you could also lose with proper discipline, diet, and exercise. The pills may just help you get there a little faster.

Any proficiency you could achieve with a laser, you could also achieve with professional training, live fire practice, and dry fire practice (never under rate dry fire practice cuz it helps a lot and develops muscle memory). But the laser may get you there a little faster.

The idea though, is the same as the diet pills. It is to hit a level of achievement and discipline (and you must decide on your goals) that no longer requires the use of the training tool. You just don't want to keep using them, or need them forever.

So just view its possible aid in a bad situation as a bonus and alternate use if need be. The idea is that at some point, you should feel like the laser was a waste of money. Then you'll be prepared for a bad situation.

 

[Hunter2011]

These Crimson Trace lasers for my PT709, is there a on of switch on it, or are the switch that is automatically activated on the grip the only switch? I won't use the laser in the day and would prefer to turn it off completely while at the range.

I feel a laser can do good. If it fails, you still have your iron sights..
I had a green laser on a air pistol some time ago. I could point it just as fast as normal sights, but I can be on target, and be sure I am on target, faster with it than with open sights. With open sights you must align the front sight with the rear sight, and be sure the target is in view. With the laser, it is so much easier.

Sorry Sam911, I do realise you hate lasers
But my question was about accuracy, not whether it is needed or not. I do believe I can with my limited experience, shoot better with it than without it.
I don't talk about sport shooting like shooting silhouettes, it is illegal anyway, but for SD use in the dark.

 

[Sam1911]

They greatly assist point-shooting at closer ranges where one doesn't shoot from an extended two hand stance. Using a laser also helps when shooting from a retention position. They help the most when shooting with one hand.

I would make the very minor quibble that "point shooting" is specifically the discipline of learning to use advanced eye-hand coordination to hit your target without any kind of sighting tool. You could substitute "shooting from the hip" or more accurately "shooting without bringing the gun up into the line of sight."

Sorry Sam911, I do realise you hate lasers

Not at all, actually. They just are sold as something that they can't be. There are some things they do well, as noted above.

But my question was about accuracy, not whether it is needed or not.

Accuracy, again, hard to say. Mechanical accuracy? No, not any more accurate. Practical/effective accuracy? In some instances and for some people, probably. (E.g.: Shooting without your glasses, as 460Kodiak suggested.)

I do believe I can with my limited experience, shoot better with it than without it.

Ahh, the frustrations of working with someone over the 'net. Without knowing what you're practicing and how, and what your level of skill development is, and what things you might be doing right and wrong, and what you consider acceptably fast and accurate shooting, it is difficult to do more than simply say, "ok."

I don't talk about sport shooting like shooting silhouettes, it is illegal anyway, but for SD use in the dark.

Illegal? You mean the laser is illegal for silhouette shooting? I'd imagine so, but I don't do IMHSA.

I really do wish IDPA would allow lasers for competition. I have a sneaking suspicion Crimson Trace has an agreement of some sort with them to NOT allow it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

That's Ken Hackathorn, one of the most respected trainers working today.

He does say some really great things about using a white light. Very important stuff, thought he doesn't get into the "how" of it, which is a shame.

He also says some things about lasers. I'd call them carefully worded statements, designed to sell the product. Without knowing him personally, I can't speak to the totality of his beliefs/experiences/teaching on the subject of lasers, and whether the things he says in this video represent the "whole story" in his mind. I would guess not, but who knows?

I can say that I could make those statements without lying, by merely carefully avoiding giving my full opinions on the matter.

I wouldn't want to be associated with promoting a couple of the techniques he shows, but he may be ok with them.

Before he was a Crimson Trace spokesperson, I had a class with Ken Hackathorn. At the time, he was NOT a fan of lasers for the general population (no real need) or for cops. I have seen the commentary where he says that lasers have really changed over the years and while maybe true, they have not changed significantly in form and function in the last 15 years (which is certainly longer ago than when I took my class with him).

But my question was about accuracy, not whether it is needed or not.

I believe you have confused accuracy with marksmanship.

I do believe I can with my limited experience, shoot better with it than without it.

That is marksmanship.

Maybe your marksmanship will improve with a laser, but as noted if for SD, then it will likely slow you down quite a bit as well.

 

[Sam1911]

Before he was a Crimson Trace spokesperson, I had a class with Ken Hackathorn. At the time, he was NOT a fan of lasers for the general population (no real need) or for cops. I have seen the commentary where he says that lasers have really changed over the years and while maybe true, they have not changed significantly in form and function in the last 15 years (which is certainly longer ago than when I took my class with him).

Well, that's interesting. Almost seems to confirm my thoughts in post 20.

If you listen to him talk in that clip, it's like a carefully worded ballet of pro-laser catchphrases wrapped around a meaty discussion of use of a white light. No real discussion of why a laser does anything better, or as well, as iron sights do. Except for the really odd mention near the end of engaging the target without bringing the gun up, which I'm very surprised he'd let slip in. Not very sound shooting practice, certainly for making multiple fast hits. The way he says it its almost like you'd want to shoot from waist level if you had a choice, which is absolutely untrue, due to slowness of recovery and reacquiring the aiming index, among other reasons.

But it is nice to get paid for time on camera...

 

[Hunter2011]

At the very least it will help with three scenarios.
You don't have your glasses on. You have to shoot in the dark, and three it will be great for dry fire practice. For all the rest, you can use your open sights if you so prefer.

 

[Ccctennis]

Well it looks as so this is a hot topic. The irony of it is those that have lasers don't necessarily use them in every situation and all of us with them still use iron sights. I train for every scenario. I especially like those that argue that the laser gives away your position then suggest we use a flashlight! But let's not mistake our lasers as something helps us avoid iron sights or practice. The laser is a tool than can help shooters. Is it good to use my lasers while pointing and snap reflex training in my house? Of course. No matter great you are with practice at a minimum the laser can at least confirm or deny your claim to aim! My laser is green flashing light which doesn't put out a constant beam. It is harder to track back to the shooter. Also the eyes pick up green faster than any color. Am I faster with a laser vs snap shooting. No it's actually about the same exact speed. But I am much more accurate. And with a house full of kids pets and spouse that is important to me.