Huge news in IL (CCW, removal of Chicago AWB)

[Carl N. Brown]

It may take time for Illinois to join the rest of the Union.

Tennessee has formal reciprocity agreements with several states, but has elected to recognize all valid state-issued carry license or permit w/o formal reciprocity agreements.

My Tennessee handgun carry permit was $75 certification for 8 hours training and range qualification, $115 for 4-year permit and $50 for 4-year renewal. Not perfect, but better than what we had before: 95 county sheriffs with their own discretionary standards.

(Of the current Tennessee carry permit system, I would keep the 4-hour class on self-defense law and require 100% passing grade on the written exam. Fees tax-paid as a benefit to public safety. The 4-hour safety class waived on proof of equivalent training.)

A growing number of states have found no problem with Constitutional Carry.

 

[Trent]

This bill is crap and madigan won. Our guys caved.
If ISRA endorses this I'm tearing up my membership card.

ISRA endorsed it this morning.

 

[taliv]

Ok, I get what you're saying. Take this load of crap then in a few years when we can prove all those innocents are getting mugged, raped and murdered in the gun free zones we'll be able to shorten the list. $30/year doesn't sound bad but $150 up front does plus you gotta pay for 16 hours of training. That IS prohibitive. How much do NRA instructors charge per hour anyway? If it were an online course combined with on location training that wouldn't be so bad but it's not. We gotta get more active in politics and get these liberals voted out. That's the bottom line pure and simple.

obviously you don't. you're neck deep in crap. they're offering you a compromise that makes you only knee deep in crap. take it.

you're not going to 'prove' anything. chicago has led the nation in murders for years. by your logic they would have been confronted with the obvious truth and changed the gun laws in chicago back in the friggin 70s when upwards of 900 people were killed per year there.

it's not going to happen. the only path forward is little steps. you may as well start now. or you could wait for a perfect bill.

 

[Trent]

I've slept on it, digested 1200+ posts on Illinois carry bbs..

Still not happy.

Everyplace I want to be able to carry, to protect my loved ones, is off limits. Parks, zoos, museums, open air track meets, libraries, etc.

Basically anywhere I go with my children to do things, I have to disarm. Pull a loaded gun out in my vehicle to store, hope no bad guys see me, or break in to my car. (Forget riding motorcycles, the minimal storage available on my sportbikes isn't secure AND I would have to fully expose the firearm to store it, which is illegal).

Then we get to this 'may issue' path, where if the CLEO puts forward any objection, your fate is in the hands of 7 board members appointed by an anti-gun governor. That stinks of backdoor bans.

Oh, and the training thing. The NRA certified language was stripped out. Instructors must be approved by the Illinois State Police. Training was raised to 16 hours. Which means a 'basic pistol' course, even if it is allowed, isn't enough. Training costs for that amount of time will likely be 300+, assuming you can FIND an approved instructor/course.

And electronic fingerprinting? Another 50-60 fee there.

Not to forget that the public transportation ban precludes 1.6 million daily commuters from carrying.

Then there is the double whammy of a .08 restriction on blood alcohol content AND a prohibition on going to an establishment that sells alcohol. I don't drink, what if i'm the designated driver? What if I shoot pool in a pool league that has a match in a bad neighborhood??? I have to go unarmed to a high risk situation to enjoy a hobby.

Absolute ban on universities. We know what happens when students can't defend themselves.

WITH THIS BILL YOU CAN NOT EVEN WATCH THE 4TH OF JULY FIREWORKS ON INDEPENDENCE DAY BECAUSE CARRYING IN A GOVT-PERMITTED PUBLIC GATHERING IS PROHIBITED.

Some freedom, can't even celebrate our freedom while exercising it!

Of course that also means no carrying at car shows, classic car drive-in's, etc.

Man I could go on all day but work is calling. Not happy.

 

[Xfire68]

Ok, I get what you're saying. Take this load of crap then in a few years when we can prove all those innocents are getting mugged, raped and murdered in the gun free zones we'll be able to shorten the list. $30/year doesn't sound bad but $150 up front does plus you gotta pay for 16 hours of training. That IS prohibitive. How much do NRA instructors charge per hour anyway? If it were an online course combined with on location training that wouldn't be so bad but it's not. We gotta get more active in politics and get these liberals voted out. That's the bottom line pure and simple.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

The bigger issue here is that NRA instructors are not going to be doing the training!

Only Illinois State Police certified instructors can do the training.

NRA was left out of the bill on purpose.

 

[ewrski]

It is $20 in Pennsylvania for 5 years. $150 is 7.5X that. That is way too much money.

 

[JFtheGR8]

Quote:

Ok, I get what you're saying....

obviously you don't. you're neck deep in crap. they're offering you a compromise that makes you only knee deep in crap. take it.

you're not going to 'prove' anything. chicago has led the nation in murders for years. by your logic they would have been confronted with the obvious truth and changed the gun laws in chicago back in the friggin 70s when upwards of 900 people were killed per year there.

it's not going to happen. the only path forward is little steps. you may as well start now. or you could wait for a perfect bill.

Oh no I do get it. Trent said it best in the above post. What it seems like to me is that some want to just be able to carry a pistol so they can say they do. I actually want to be able to carry one where I may need it. I can afford the fees and the training cost but the ones who need this the most, the elderly and tenants of high crime areas, probably can't. I'm willing to fight for the long haul and I agree this is a step forward. I guess our best option is to accept this as a small victory and then chip away at the restrictions over time.


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[Trent]

Nursing homes excluded specifically, even though they are a private business.

Can't carry a firearm when I visit family members in a private business?

Libraries still get me. I can't remember ANY time someone went postal on the reference aisle.

Museums. Because connoisseurs of fine art are likely to start shooting at vases, at random? what movie was that in..?

None of these make any damn sense.

 

[Trent]

Passed committee hearing 12-3

 

[taliv]

Oh no I do get it. Trent said it best in the above post. What it seems like to me is that some want to just be able to carry a pistol so they can say they do. I actually want to be able to carry one where I may need it.

no, neither of you do.

you are NOT going to get a bill in illinois that magically fixes it over night.

look at ohio ccw as an example. when it was first passed, it was so jacked up it was basically unusable too. you had to carry concealed only outside a vehicle but while in a vehicle you couldn't carry concealed and the gun had to be on your person.

so not many people carried when they first got it. but over the next few years they made many changes and now it's pretty standard there.

sure, there are a lot of places you won't be able to carry next year.... but you can't carry ANYWHERE today, so what are you complaining about?

 

[armoredman]

On one hand, it is a huge step in the right direction, but one that the Chicago Machine will be trying to turn around as fast as possible. How much chance do you have on improving this law in the future, given the realities of IL politics? Serious question, not trying to be snarky.
We started with our very first Shall Issue CCW law in 1994 with many restrictions, long training times, etc., and by 2010 we had Constitutional Carry. It can be done, and you guys can do it to. Good luck.

 

[sixgunner455]

This is a huge step forward.

Look at AZ - for decades, we had no concealed carry (even with the open carry "standard" due to our frontier heritage). Then, we got concealed carry permits. They were kind of expensive, and you had to pay for a class, too. And it was long. And you had to take the same class to renew, and renewals were only a little bit less money. And where you could carry was kind of restricted.

Look at the process, though - we got the renewal class time reduced, then eliminated. We got the initial class time reduced. Restrictions on where you could carry got reduced, step by step. We're still working on that.

Now, though, you don't have to get a permit to carry concealed if you don't want to. There are places you can't carry without it, but that's up to the individual. There's reciprocity with lots of places, but you have to have a permit. You can still get the permit.

Incrementalism, as stated before, really does work.

 

[Trent]

sure, there are a lot of places you won't be able to carry next year.... but you can't carry ANYWHERE today, so what are you complaining about?

This is a valid point. Also, first offense on a prohibited location is a misdemeanor, not a felony. At least that opens the door for (somewhat) painless challenges on these restrictions, without risking a felony conviction.

Problem is there is no severability written in so if ANY provision is ruled unconstitutional the whole thing evaporates. It'd be safer for everyone to do amendments. Unfortunately it will probably take victims to cite as why prohibited areas should be removed, before this happens. (e.g. VA tech)

Another issue is time. 180 days before it takes effect. Another 90 for the app process. Another 30 if you don't pay to have fingerprints done. Another 30 if your app is reviewed. For some, this means they may not be able to start carrying until May 2014. For all, it means no one will be carrying until January 2014.

 

[JFtheGR8]

Quote:

Oh no I do get it. Trent said it best in the above post. What it seems like to me is that some want to just be able to carry a pistol so they can say they do. I actually want to be able to carry one where I may need it.

no, neither of you do.

you are NOT going to get a bill in illinois that magically fixes it over night.

look at ohio ccw as an example. when it was first passed, it was so jacked up it was basically unusable too. you had to carry concealed only outside a vehicle but while in a vehicle you couldn't carry concealed and the gun had to be on your person.

so not many people carried when they first got it. but over the next few years they made many changes and now it's pretty standard there.

sure, there are a lot of places you won't be able to carry next year.... but you can't carry ANYWHERE today, so what are you complaining about?

Yeah, I do get it. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I've known for a very long time that Chicago runs the entire state and that the majority of those Chicago politicians are corrupt in one way or another. We are being thrown a bone to get us to shut up so they can move on to more "important" issues such as gay marriage and medical marijuana.

We'll just have to fight this in court again after some little old lady gets beat nearly to death in one of those restricted areas. History tends to repeat itself you know.

Here's to incrementalism and that's how it will get done in Illinois.


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[taliv]

the most important part was this:

It also means we only need a simple majority to tweak it in coming years, not a 3/5ths majority.

that means the door is open to add severability (though it seems unlikely a bill permitting guns would be ruled unconstitutional). it's going to be possible to take places off the list. to fix the appeals and permit process. to reduce the training time and add the NRA to it.

look, it's politics. that's how politics works. you'll get those things as time goes on. you won't get them all at once.

 

[Xfire68]

that's how politics works

That's a good one! Politics have not "Worked" in many many years!

 

[Trent]

the most important part was this:



that means the door is open to add severability (though it seems unlikely a bill permitting guns would be ruled unconstitutional). it's going to be possible to take places off the list. to fix the appeals and permit process. to reduce the training time and add the NRA to it.

look, it's politics. that's how politics works. you'll get those things as time goes on. you won't get them all at once.

The simple majority only applies if the Governor is amicable. Even Madigan is assuming this will be vetoed, he is breaking ranks with the Gov and made a public statement saying he was prepared to override a governor veto.

ANY changes to this which increase our "privilege" will need supermajority. While any changes to make it more restrictive will only require a simple majority.

At least, as long as Chicago controls the governor's office.

 

[stumpers]

look, it's politics. that's how politics works. you'll get those things as time goes on. you won't get them all at once.

That's the reality. Nothing happens without compromise and everyone has an agenda.

We are being thrown a bone to get us to shut up so they can move on to more "important" issues such as gay marriage and medical marijuana.

Which they should also be working on. If you have a dog in that fight, then fight there, too. LBGT issues and the equal protection of the law are no less important than the Second Amendment. Who knows, maybe supporting someone else's expanded legal protections might make them reconsider hearing you out on your important issues.

 

[taliv]

politics is simply a group of people with different interests and beliefs negotiating and compromising.

saying "politics have not worked" is really saying you are ineffective at negotiating.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I think that this law is awesome news. I know it's not anywhere near ideal, but hear me out. I'm more excited about the state preemption.

AWB is gone.

Registration is gone (that's a big one).

Safe storage that keeps poor people from being able to afford gun ownership..gone.

Along with a whole host of others. It greatly helps gun rights within one's own home. And while the CCW is very restrictive, right now you can't carry anywhere, ever. This is a step in the right direction.

This is an exciting time for Illinois.

 

[JFtheGR8]

Quote:

We are being thrown a bone to get us to shut up so they can move on to more "important" issues such as gay marriage and medical marijuana.

Which they should also be working on. If you have a dog in that fight, then fight there, too. LBGT issues and the equal protection of the law are no less important than the Second Amendment. Who knows, maybe supporting someone else's expanded legal protections might make them reconsider hearing you out on your important issues.

I agree that everyone should have equal civil rights and the sooner people recognize the right to keep and bear arms as a fundamental civil right the better off we'll be. I could care less if two people want to get married and share their assets and benefits. I could also care less if someone smokes a joint to ease their pain from a chronic illness so long as it's regulated and there's no blood trail back to a Mexican drug cartel. I'm not out there pushing for laws to restrict the rights of others such as some of them are trying to take my rights away.




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[JFtheGR8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingcreek

This bill is crap and madigan won. Our guys caved.
If ISRA endorses this I'm tearing up my membership card.

ISRA endorsed it this morning.

The ISRA has announced they are neutral due to the restrictions in the bill. I did get an email bulletin this morning alerting me of the bill. That's not an endorsement.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

 

[Big_John1961]

Ok, I get what you're saying. Take this load of crap then in a few years when we can prove all those innocents are getting mugged, raped and murdered in the gun free zones we'll be able to shorten the list. $30/year doesn't sound bad but $150 up front does plus you gotta pay for 16 hours of training. That IS prohibitive. How much do NRA instructors charge per hour anyway? If it were an online course combined with on location training that wouldn't be so bad but it's not. We gotta get more active in politics and get these liberals voted out. That's the bottom line pure and simple.

I'm guessing that if you can afford firearms you can afford the fee and money for the training.

 

[Trent]

The ISRA has announced they are neutral due to the restrictions in the bill. I did get an email bulletin this morning alerting me of the bill. That's not an endorsement.

The e-mail in my inbox this morning made it sound like they were taking credit for it.

But I now see they have since clarified their position.

Original e-mail

Also this morning we will see a viable concealed carry bill being passed out of committee. This bill contains preemption which means local gun laws will be null and void. The problem will be all antigun efforts will be focused in Springfield. So the Illinois State Rifle Association will be in the anti-gun crosshairs from here on out. We will need you to recruit as many new members as possible. Please work on that. Stay tuned for bulletins as the happen at any minute.

New e-mail:

After many years of working to advance a Right to Carry bill, there is a viable proposal on the table. This bill, SB 2193, sponsored by Representative Brandon Phelps, is not a perfect bill but it does have several good points, for example:

Shall issue

Statewide pre-emption of all gun laws

Commercially available training

Vehicles will be a safe haven


However, the bill does call for:

16 hours of training, although some previous training will count toward those hours

$150.00 license fee, for five years

Carry on mass transportation prohibited

This bill, if passed, will bring Right to Carry to Illinois, but due to the restrictions in the bill we are neutral on the bill.

While many people have been involved in this effort, Representative Brandon Phelps has demonstrated superior leadership and should be commended for his resolve.

 

[Trent]

Also, www.illinoiscarry.com appears to be down for me, can't connect.

Can someone verify that board is down?

REALLY bad time for it to crash, if that's the case. That's the primary source of early news on this stuff.