I trust you, but not your gun

[BruceRDucer]

BruceRDucer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that I expect perfection...it is not. What I was expecting when I started reading this thread was feedback from those who responded to the ops question to be more than questioning the ops friends sexuallity or security. This seems rather shallow to me and not very well thought out. There have been a lot of responses that basically attacked the ops friend and had nothing to do with offering intelligent reasoning.

We all have the ability to influence those around us...the question is are we going to influence them in a positive way or negative way. What I have read in some of the responses was not about seeking to find a way to help the person or the op try to resolve this but to simply cast stones.

There have been some great responses and they have been very good...some were not.

The op has certainly given me a lot to think about...I have chose not to carry for quite some time. I have been rethinking this lately and the op has presented some things that have moved me closer to getting my CCL so thanks!

Self Defense is based upon the proposition that not all human communication is based upon....
"offering intelligent reasoning."

If you own a weapon for your personal defense, whether you have a carry permit or not, you are already engaged in rationalism that involves THROWING STONES at another human being.

If that event occurs, you can hardly say to the object of your weapon's discharge:

"DON'T WORRY MY FRIEND. THE "STONE" FIRED IN YOUR DIRECTION IS POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE."

In point of fact, it doesn't really matter. The Self Defense proposition is the defense of SELF, and can only be construed as the Defense of a Positive Idea by way of extended processes of logic.

Self Defense is based upon the idea that we do not always have the opportunity to engage in processes of logic because Life & Death are imminent propositions.

Self Defense is about a choice to live and not die, and to do so through lawful activity. We do not always have the opportunity be certain of Positivity or Negativity.

I propose that we should always regard members who support our Right to Carry as a priority in fellowship, because if we to do not endure together, we shall certainly fail together..

/

 

[Hokkmike]

Things that are unfamiliar to people are scary. The first time I picked up a semi auto it was frightening. If he were to shoot with you and learn the function of the gun as well as your carrying "procedures" I am sure that the margin of "trust" would increase. His house, his rules - that's cool. No big deal. In my opinion your "right" to carry in his house is much less important than his friendship. Now, if he lives in a VERY dangerous crime ridden area that complicates things!

 

[LKB3rd]

It means that he has an illogical fear of inanimate objects. If he trusts you, then he trusts you, and a gun doesn't change that. If he believes that the gun has magical powers similar to the ring in "Lord of the Rings," or that it can jump out of your holster and start shooting toddlers under its own power, then his statement makes sense.

 

[Templar223]

You handled the situation very well. What is more important is not letting something like this ruin a good friendship. He doesn't need to approve of things you think and do and vice verse to be a good friend.

I don't have and won't have any "good friends" who don't trust me with a gun.

The OP's "friend" is telling him, in no uncertain terms, that he doesn't trust the OP.

John

 

[deerhunter61]

BruceRDucer

You and I are appoaching this differently. My responses were on why someone would be uncomfortable with another person carrying a firearm in their home. I have tried to provide a reasonable answer. I do not think the person the op mentioned was concerned about self defense and so I did not address this from that perspective. I am not commenting on the logic or lack there of when you choose to carry for self defense and make the decision to use said weapon for this purpose. I was commenting on the logic or better yet the lack of their logic in their answer to the ops question.

To say to someone if you do not trust me to carry in your home because I do not trust you to provide a safe enviroment to me when I visit then I am not going to be your friend? This seems to be the stance of a lot of those that have responded...why is this stance less offensive than that of those who have said they would end the friendship? None of this makes sense to me.

In as much as I know we live in a violent society I am amazed at what seems to be the fear of those that choose to carry that respond to these threads. It seems to be that if they can not carry then they fear that someone is going to shoot them? I am not sure but I know I have been around for 46 years and although there have been times when I wished I had had a gun with me those times have been VERY VERY rare.

To put this above a persons friendship....I know...If they do not let me carry I am going to take my gun and go home!

Those that reply this way seem to be pretty narrow minded...my way or the highway stance...ok RAMBO...hit the highway.

 

[RioShooter]

AB,

After all of this discussion, have you decided what you are going to do about your friend?

I wouldn't leave myself defenseless to satisfy another's insecurities. But that's just me.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

"It is not my policy to comment on the presence or absence of concealed weapons." (I heard that in a slightly different form when someone asked the Navy if they carry nukes on their ships.)

Life is too short to have stupid "friends." If he can't be educated, then he shouldn't be your friend.

I was at a party in a nearby large city one evening with lots of expensive jewelry and watches on display and the sheriff commented to me, "I'd bet good money you and I are the only armed people in the room." He knows me.

ECS

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I have a sneaking suspicion if i play it cool, he will bring it up again, out of curiosity -- and I'll invite him with me to the range.

That's how the OP (Arrogant Bastard) left things. It would seem he is going to try and take his friend shooting if he is willing.

 

[Werewolf]

In as much as I know we live in a violent society I am amazed at what seems to be the fear of those that choose to carry that respond to these threads. It seems to be that if they can not carry then they fear that someone is going to shoot them? I am not sure but I know I have been around for 46 years and although there have been times when I wished I had had a gun with me those times have been VERY VERY rare.

Why do people like you attribute a person's desire to always be prepared to fear?

It isn't a case of fear, or paranoia or any thing else. It's about preparedness. One can go a lifetime never needing to defend one's self from a violent attack. There are many that do. Or one can experience that violent attack at any time and that time is not of their choosing. Those that are prepared will survive - those not will not. All it takes is once.

There's a saying with not a little truth in it that gets tossed around on THR quite a bit. Mostly you'll never need a gun but when you do you'll really, really need it.

Personally I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's all about preparedness and nothing about fear.

It's that simple.

 

[romeo212000]

+1+1

Excellent post. Some people even within our own community do not get the concept of always being prepared. Even they do not understand that we are in fact truly safe nowhere.

 

[NotSoFast]

He said, "It's not you. I trust you. But people with guns make me uncomfortable."

So the next time you're alone with him, and have reassured him you're not carrying, ask him what about a person with a gun makes him uncomfortable. Start your conversation there and you'll be able to show him the difference between a law abiding, responsible, gun carrying individual and a irresponsible, law breaking, gun carrying criminal.

People have been watching too many violent shows where the first thing anybody does is draw and start "spraying" lead. It gives us a bad rep.

 

[deerhunter61]

Werewolf

I have no problem with someone wanting to "be prepared" as you say. That is not what this thread was about...at least not to me. It was about educating someone who does not understand why those of you who do carry do so and having an opportunity to do so and perhaps change this person from one being afraid of those who carry to one who does carry.

My comments were aimed at those who's responses were unproductive to this cause. Instead of providing reasonable explanations as to why someone might be uncomfortable with having a "friend" in their home carrying a firearm and provide an approach to change the person's mind, their response was "if he does not trust you" or "I do not need a friend like that" or they question his manhood or something else that does nothing to educate the person just condemning this individual to be an opponent of the CCL crowd forever. All of this seems to be totally unproductive. My response about people being afraid if they do not carry someone will shoot at them was an effort to cause people to think...ok...when I go to his home out of respect for him and our friendship I will not carry and over the next X number of days/months I will try to educate this friend and build the trust he is lacking. This seems to me to be productive. Is it possible if AB chooses this route that someone could attack him while he is not carrying? Yes, but I was trying to stress that the odds of this occuring are very slim. And I believe the advantages of taking this course of action far outweighs the stance of those that say dump him as a friend...and question this man's friendship.

There simply seems to be a few who respond that put a gun or the need to carry one above friendship...and do so no matter what. REMEMBER I am talking about making logical choices. I am not saying if you are going into a dangerous situation DO NOT CARRY because your friend is afraid or uncomfortable...I am saying if you are going to his house...he lives in a good neighborhood...have the courage to step out without the gun and try to be his friend and everyone elses on this thread by trying to educate him so he will become a proponent and not an opponent of those who believe in the 2nd ammendment.

Does this help?

 

[3KillerBs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deerhunter61
In as much as I know we live in a violent society I am amazed at what seems to be the fear of those that choose to carry that respond to these threads. It seems to be that if they can not carry then they fear that someone is going to shoot them? I am not sure but I know I have been around for 46 years and although there have been times when I wished I had had a gun with me those times have been VERY VERY rare.
Why do people like you attribute a person's desire to always be prepared to fear?

It isn't a case of fear, or paranoia or any thing else. It's about preparedness. One can go a lifetime never needing to defend one's self from a violent attack. There are many that do. Or one can experience that violent attack at any time and that time is not of their choosing. Those that are prepared will survive - those not will not. All it takes is once.

There's a saying with not a little truth in it that gets tossed around on THR quite a bit. Mostly you'll never need a gun but when you do you'll really, really need it.

Personally I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's all about preparedness and nothing about fear.

It's that simple.

I live in a town with a single digit violent crime rate. Some years that digit is a zero.

However, I have decided that in years that it is not zero I do not want to be represented in that single digit.

Next town south 2 men have been killed over drugs this year. As far as I know the people in that town have cars and our town does not have a moat, a wall, and checkpoints with armed guards to keep those dangerous folk from that next town out.

 

[deerhunter61]

3KillerBs

As I stated in the above post...that is not what I am talking about...I am talking about a narrow situation in which there is the possibility to help someone who does not undestand to understand...

Talking about being narrow minded..PLEASE READ ALL THAT I POSTED!

What people seem to be saying is that you believe your NEED to carry 100% of the time is more important than trying to educate someone and help them understand the reasoning behind your choice to carry.

I am done here...nothing is being accomplished.

 

[Werewolf]

Is it possible if AB chooses this route that someone could attack him while he is not carrying? Yes, but I was trying to stress that the odds of this occuring are very slim.

It's not about small odds - it's about the large price paid, about potential consequences.

Someone says, step over that line and I'll give you 100 million dollars. But wait - you need to know that there is a one in a million chance you'll die. Mathematically - a good bet. Logically a good bet. Realistically a crappy bet. Why - because if you lose you're dead and it doesn't get much more final than that. Every person who lives in the world makes that bet every single day they go out into it. Every day millions lose that bet. Why make it any easier for the world to win.

Small odds of something happening is not a good reason to go into the world unprepared. In the real world those small odds catch up with someone each and every day.

Odds are it won't be you.

Are you willing to bet your life on it? Is a friendship with someone who thinks with his heart instead of his head worth your life. It better be because that's the bet you're making every time you go into the world unprepared to meet the threats that exist with in it. (Preparedness to meet a threat comes in many different forms).

Is it possible if AB chooses this route that someone could attack him while he is not carrying? Yes, but I was trying to stress that the odds of this occuring are very slim.

Are you willing to bet your life on it?

 

[deerhunter61]

Thank you for making my point...yes I am especially for a friend...Are you not willing to make a sacrifice to help a friend? I am not even talking about the literal of below but just willing to take that 1 in a 1,000,000 chance?

Greater love has no man than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

John 15:13

 

[3KillerBs]

Catering to a person's weakness is not friendship when that means ignoring their greater welfare.

Better to assist a friend to grow than to take high-stakes risks for something as trivial as emotional comfort when drawing them outside their comfort zone would better enhance their long-term welfare. Better to help a friend become a creature of reason and sense rather than a prisoner to knee-jerk emotionalism and the denial of rational thought.

The OP is in a good position to do just that -- not by compromising his own beliefs but by helping his friend stretch beyond his emotionalism to think in a new way.

 

[deerhunter61]

Like I said in an earlier post...VERY NARROWED MINDED. Can not see the forest from the trees.

We are done...

 

[Neo-Luddite]

----

 

[romeo212000]

deerhunter what does that verse have to do with this discussion? Absoloutely nothing. He is willing to help a friend but that does not mean he should render himself defenseless while doing so. The fact is this guy may not want to be helped and if he does not then he cannot be helped. Why should the OPer leave himself defenseless?

 

[Deleted member 66305]

AB,

After all of this discussion, have you decided what you are going to do about your friend?

I wouldn't leave myself defenseless to satisfy another's insecurities. But that's just me.

Well, I don't intend to drop any friends because they don't want weapons in their house. I personally find that self-defeating.

I just bought a Ruger Mk III, and was showing it to friends at dinner -- he was among them, and decided he'd like to try shooting it next time I go to the range. I even offered to pay his range fee.

 

[deerhunter61]

romeo212000

It had nothing to do with the Ops post but it did address 3KillerBs question to me. If you did not read all I directed that to 3KillerBs at the beginning of the post...so you should have backtracked and read his post so you would understand. READ ALL! And if you did and you still do not understand I can not help you.

 

[deerhunter61]

AB,

You can carry in my home anytime. It appears you have your priorities where I believe they should be!

Thanks for your thread. It has made me think about a lot.

 

[deerhunter61]

romeo212000

It had nothing to do with the Ops post but it did address 3KillerBs question to me. If you did not read all I directed that to 3KillerBs at the beginning of the post...so you should have backtracked and read his post so you would understand. READ ALL! And if you did and you still do not understand I can not help you.

 

[Intune]

dh61, I get the distinct impression that you do not carry a firearm on a regular basis, other than walking to the deer blind. Do you have a CCW? Even if “no” is your response it still fails to explain your apparent stance that;

To put this above a persons friendship....I know...If they do not let me carry I am going to take my gun and go home!

Tune- Permit holders are callous & childish.

Those that reply this way seem to be pretty narrow minded...my way or the highway stance...ok RAMBO...hit the highway.

Tune- Permit holders are pretty narrow minded and RAMO-esque and should be shown the door.

I am done here...nothing is being accomplished.

Tune- When your POV fails to be embraced, is challenged or even dismissed (which it never was,) you bail & the discussion becomes moot.


Like I said in an earlier post...VERY NARROWED MINDED. Can not see the forest from the trees.
We are done...

Tune- When your threat to bail is ineffective you return to decree that now permit holders are “very narrow minded” in addition to suffering myopia in regards to the big picture. Having been effectively rebutted, the stakes are now raised and in your opinion the entire discussion becomes moot & should be concluded forthwith.


READ ALL! And if you did and you still do not understand I can not help you.

Tune- Permit holders are a bit slow and you wash your hands of them thereby reinforcing the “friends” desire to keep an armed oaf from darkening his doorway.

Would it help you in some way if the situation was discussed sans firearm? You can come over but don't bring your----- (wife, brother, sister, mom, dad, girlfriend, friend, etc.) over with you because even though they haven't done anything or offended me, they might?
This is a very civil discussion board so please realize that some of my responses/observations were made tongue-in-cheek.