I was thinking of buying a Glock and then...
- Thread starter atblis
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Are you a Glock rep fella?
tuner said it all.
Hope you can get it repaired. I would not condemn the Glock product line entirely, but I would question their quality control. Aren't those german guns? I thought Germans made the best stuff in the world. That's what all the germans I know tell me....they all drive Toyotas though..hmmmmm.
jeepmor
tuner said it all.
Hope you can get it repaired. I would not condemn the Glock product line entirely, but I would question their quality control. Aren't those german guns? I thought Germans made the best stuff in the world. That's what all the germans I know tell me....they all drive Toyotas though..hmmmmm.
jeepmor
atblis
Member
I'll tell you guys something interesting in a bit
but this is too amusing so I'll let this go on for a while.
Again I will reiterate that I have pushed 3 different Witnesses harder than factory double tap loads, and absolutely none have had brass that looks like that come out of the chamber.
Additionally, there's no way DT is using crappy brass (at least I hope not).
but this is too amusing so I'll let this go on for a while.
Again I will reiterate that I have pushed 3 different Witnesses harder than factory double tap loads, and absolutely none have had brass that looks like that come out of the chamber.
Additionally, there's no way DT is using crappy brass (at least I hope not).
tlend
Member
jeepmor said:
I believe they're Austrian (but same same right?
) Anyway, I know the topic's pretty much been hammered to death but I gotta say, I own two glock pistols, and have at least 5000 rounds through each. Neither has been modified, repaired, or had anything other than cleaning (by my hands). I have never had a swollen case head/ammuntion malfunction that i would consider a critical malfunction. To each his own.ny32182
Member
A G20 will probably be my next pistol, but the first time I see a case that looks like that come out of it, I'm springing for an aftermarket barrel. There are entirely too many reports of KBs with G20s for it to be anything other than a problem with the factory barrel. I don't care what their excuse is; it is something that *should* be fixed. My personal theory is that their ramp design and chamber dimensions are close enough to a dangerous lack of support that a few barrels on the outside edges of their tolerance escape the factory in a truly dangerous state. Not that Glock would ever admit it.
My Double Tap ammo is actually marked with the Starline symbol on the brass, so unless they have switched suppliers, it is probably Starline.
My Double Tap ammo is actually marked with the Starline symbol on the brass, so unless they have switched suppliers, it is probably Starline.
Grayrider
Member
Yet again Tuner teaches me something I did not know. Good information for those that are willing to listen.
Seems like a barrel would be wise for anyone wanting to run the warmer 10mm from a G20. I have owned three of them and found that they showed more signs of pressure from hotter loads in the fired brass than I had from a Witness or S&W 10mm. I had some really hot ammo that the Smith ate fine, but the G20s completely choked on. I recently ran the rest through my Witness Match without any problems. Of course none of the Glocks gave me issues with the more mundane 10mm loadings out there.
GR
Seems like a barrel would be wise for anyone wanting to run the warmer 10mm from a G20. I have owned three of them and found that they showed more signs of pressure from hotter loads in the fired brass than I had from a Witness or S&W 10mm. I had some really hot ammo that the Smith ate fine, but the G20s completely choked on. I recently ran the rest through my Witness Match without any problems. Of course none of the Glocks gave me issues with the more mundane 10mm loadings out there.
GR
atblis
Member
I might go for the slightly out of battery thing
perhaps caused by a worn out recoil spring, aggravated by the loose chamber and feedramp issues that everyone is aware of (but some pretend don't exist).
Not all Glocks do it, but it appears to be enough of an issue that....
They probably still use Starline. They just started using their own headstamp.
Don't get pissy guys. I never said it was my pistol.
With wussy factory loads the Glock doesn't appear to have any problems. With 10mm loads on the warmer side... Maybe I'll buy one over the summer and see if I can get it to kaboom.
New Glocks 20 $550
After market barrel $180
Not having your piece of plastic perfection explode in your face, Priceless.
I do like Glocks. It's just the prospect of having to buy a new barrel that keeps me from picking one up.
perhaps caused by a worn out recoil spring, aggravated by the loose chamber and feedramp issues that everyone is aware of (but some pretend don't exist).
Not all Glocks do it, but it appears to be enough of an issue that....
They probably still use Starline. They just started using their own headstamp.
Don't get pissy guys. I never said it was my pistol.
With wussy factory loads the Glock doesn't appear to have any problems. With 10mm loads on the warmer side... Maybe I'll buy one over the summer and see if I can get it to kaboom.
New Glocks 20 $550
After market barrel $180
Not having your piece of plastic perfection explode in your face, Priceless.
I do like Glocks. It's just the prospect of having to buy a new barrel that keeps me from picking one up.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Spring
atblis said:
>perhaps caused by a worn out recoil spring,<
***************************
Nope. The Glock is recoil-operated, and the recoil spring has very little, if anything to do with it. Don't know the specifics on the Glock when it begins to unlock, but by the time it starts to unlock and open the breech, the bullet must be gone. Since the start of unlocking with a short-recoil system occurs at very little slide travel distance, the recoil spring compresses very little. In a 1911, this event comes with about a tenth of an inch of slide travel, so you can understand that the difference between spring loading in full battery and
that little bit of travel would be negligible to the point of zero effect.
OTOH, if the gun unlocks too early, while the bullet is still present and pressures are high, it could very well be why the case bulged or blew...
but this is a mechanical timing event not affected by the recoil spring.
There would be evidence of early unlock at the front corner of the barrel locking lug. Radiusing, setback, or a general rounding-off of the corner
that occurs because the barrel is being pulled down while the barrel and slide lug are nailed together under pressure. To better understand, the breech locks up under presure, when it's fired...not when it's simply in battery.
atblis said:
>perhaps caused by a worn out recoil spring,<
***************************
Nope. The Glock is recoil-operated, and the recoil spring has very little, if anything to do with it. Don't know the specifics on the Glock when it begins to unlock, but by the time it starts to unlock and open the breech, the bullet must be gone. Since the start of unlocking with a short-recoil system occurs at very little slide travel distance, the recoil spring compresses very little. In a 1911, this event comes with about a tenth of an inch of slide travel, so you can understand that the difference between spring loading in full battery and
that little bit of travel would be negligible to the point of zero effect.
OTOH, if the gun unlocks too early, while the bullet is still present and pressures are high, it could very well be why the case bulged or blew...
but this is a mechanical timing event not affected by the recoil spring.
There would be evidence of early unlock at the front corner of the barrel locking lug. Radiusing, setback, or a general rounding-off of the corner
that occurs because the barrel is being pulled down while the barrel and slide lug are nailed together under pressure. To better understand, the breech locks up under presure, when it's fired...not when it's simply in battery.
ny32182
Member
The way I see it, it is the only 15+1 10mm out there at $550, or even at $750 if you end up needing a new barrel. The capacity is what makes it worth a look for me.
atblis
Member
Recoil spring
I also don't believe the recoil spring has much to do with the lockup (That's why I run stock springs). I always like to ask people what they think will happen if you fire a pistol with no recoil spring. Is it going to blowup? I don't believe a 22lb+ spring buys you anything except broken slide stops.
What I meant is that the recoil spring was to weak to make it go fully into battery (didn't feed the next round correctly).
How about 15 +1, no new barrel needed, and about $300 dollars? Every heard of the Witness? Really a nice pistol. EAA has done just about everything they can to get people to not buy them.
I also don't believe the recoil spring has much to do with the lockup (That's why I run stock springs). I always like to ask people what they think will happen if you fire a pistol with no recoil spring. Is it going to blowup? I don't believe a 22lb+ spring buys you anything except broken slide stops.
What I meant is that the recoil spring was to weak to make it go fully into battery (didn't feed the next round correctly).
How about 15 +1, no new barrel needed, and about $300 dollars? Every heard of the Witness? Really a nice pistol. EAA has done just about everything they can to get people to not buy them.
I have Witness compact, it is a nice pistol, but mine is unreliable with hot ammo, well, actually what the standard ammo was. What would you recommend I try to fix it, a stronger recoil spring or magazine spring? It stovepipes once in a while, which is the opposite of what I would think it would do with hot ammo.
atblis said:
atblis
Member
Witnesses
I am talking about the Full Size steel guns. I've never liked the compacts or the polymer guns. The fullsize steel guns are decent guns.
I am talking about the Full Size steel guns. I've never liked the compacts or the polymer guns. The fullsize steel guns are decent guns.
That's the way it's supposed to work. The combination of the slide/barrel weight and the force of the spring allow one to calculate a time constant that indicates how fast the system will respond to the firing impulse. Mechanical engineering has equations for performing the calculation. If the spring is too weak, the time constant can be small enough to allow early opening. Sometime ago, someone (I believe it was MarkCo) did some experimentation and posted the results. He was experimenting with a .40 cal Glock and was able to eliminate the case bulges by using heavier recoil springs. Just as the mechanical theory suggests.
Nope, the spring plays an integral part in the timing. If you poke me hard enough
I'll dig out my control theory book and post the equations. If I'm lucky, some college engineering student will know them off the top of his head and save me the work.
Yes, that is correct, however the force that the spring is applying while the gun is in battery (it's still under significant compression at that point--as demonstrated by what happens when you let go of one early during disassembly
) is not negligible and makes a big difference in how fast the gun unlocks/opens.I have to agree with Tuner for the most part. The mass of the recoiling parts and geometry of the barrel cam have far more effect than the recoil spring on unlock speed.
Most Kabooms in guns with proper headspace have been traced to bad ammo.
Glocks in .40 S&W have been known to be too generous in the ramp/chamber interface. Early .40 brass was thinner in the web area. That said, there is something very wrong with either the ammo or pistol in question and I have not seen a Glock with a headspace problem.
In a properly fit and ramped barrel even a little excess headspace is seldom a problem and forward movement of the case is halted by the extractor. This is why you can fire a .380 in a 9mm without ill effect. As pressure goes up, all of these factors become more critical. 35,000+ PSI will amplify any errors in brass or pistol.
Most Kabooms in guns with proper headspace have been traced to bad ammo.
Glocks in .40 S&W have been known to be too generous in the ramp/chamber interface. Early .40 brass was thinner in the web area. That said, there is something very wrong with either the ammo or pistol in question and I have not seen a Glock with a headspace problem.
In a properly fit and ramped barrel even a little excess headspace is seldom a problem and forward movement of the case is halted by the extractor. This is why you can fire a .380 in a 9mm without ill effect. As pressure goes up, all of these factors become more critical. 35,000+ PSI will amplify any errors in brass or pistol.
If you ask, you should know the answer. What happens? No guessing, let's see the theory put into practice.
IIRC, the time constant is linearly related to both the mass and the spring force--they both contribute equally. However, that doesn't mean that the PRACTICAL contribution is equal since the practical contribution has to do with the actual measured mass and spring force which may not be similar in magnitude after the proper unit conversions have been made.
A 1911 will fire and eject just fine without a recoil spring.
In the very short distance the slide and barrel travel to unlock the recoil spring in effect contributes to the force required, if you want to know how much just measure the force required to compress that particular spring 1/10th of an inch.
Mass is required to handle the momentum, otherwise we could just build slides out of plastic with steel breechfaces and get stronger springs. Not going to happen.
The recoil spring serves primarily to slow slide velocity at the end of the recoil stroke and to return the piece to battery.
In the very short distance the slide and barrel travel to unlock the recoil spring in effect contributes to the force required, if you want to know how much just measure the force required to compress that particular spring 1/10th of an inch.
Mass is required to handle the momentum, otherwise we could just build slides out of plastic with steel breechfaces and get stronger springs. Not going to happen.
The recoil spring serves primarily to slow slide velocity at the end of the recoil stroke and to return the piece to battery.
That's true--except the springs would have to be much stronger than you expect. A person has to be able to manually operate the slide--that puts an upper limit on how strong the spring (and therefore how light the slide) can be.
It's not how much the spring is COMPRESSED by the slide movement, it's how much FORCE it's exerting to hold the slide closed when the gun is in battery. The former is negligible, as noted already, the latter is significant. Remember, the spring is already significantly compressed when the gun is in battery--therefore it's already exerting force to hold the gun in battery before the slide begins to compress it due to the firing impulse.
That might be true, although I think one would experience some problems fairly quickly. But that's a 1911--we're not talking about 1911s. While a hammer driven gun still has spring force (hammer spring) holding the slide closed even without a recoil spring in place, a striker gun like the Glock does not. There are at least some on this thread that KNOW that the hammer/hammer spring force is a significant effect in the 1911. That's not present in a Glock--the only significant forces resisting slide/barrel motion in the Glock are the mass of the slide/barrel combination and the force of the recoil spring.
Agreed, in the Glock the striker spring contributes to opening force and with a weak recoil spring just pulling the trigger may cause the slide to move rearward.
Although the striker spring's effect is cancelled as the striker is released.
When I said measure the force required to compress the recoil spring for the first 1/10th of an inch, I meant as it lies in battery. It is the weakest force in that springs movement. Just as in an exposed hammer design, the hammer spring has it's lowest force applied in the first fraction of an inch of slide movement.
Although the striker spring's effect is cancelled as the striker is released.
When I said measure the force required to compress the recoil spring for the first 1/10th of an inch, I meant as it lies in battery. It is the weakest force in that springs movement. Just as in an exposed hammer design, the hammer spring has it's lowest force applied in the first fraction of an inch of slide movement.
jungle,
It's not about compressing the recoil spring--that figures into it, but as you point out, that's not a significant contributor. The significant contribution of the recoil spring is the amount of force it's applying to HOLD the gun in battery even before the slide starts moving.
The spring is ALREADY compressed when it's installed in the gun, even when the gun is in battery. That's not apparent in the Glock with the captive spring setup, but it's obvious in a setup with a free recoil spring. For example, the recoil spring in my P89 is about 13 cm uncompressed. When installed in the gun, it is compressed to about 8.5 cm. That means that even when the gun is in battery, the spring is ALREADY compressed by about 35%. It is definitely applying significant pressure to keep the slide forward.
It's not about compressing the recoil spring--that figures into it, but as you point out, that's not a significant contributor. The significant contribution of the recoil spring is the amount of force it's applying to HOLD the gun in battery even before the slide starts moving.
The spring is ALREADY compressed when it's installed in the gun, even when the gun is in battery. That's not apparent in the Glock with the captive spring setup, but it's obvious in a setup with a free recoil spring. For example, the recoil spring in my P89 is about 13 cm uncompressed. When installed in the gun, it is compressed to about 8.5 cm. That means that even when the gun is in battery, the spring is ALREADY compressed by about 35%. It is definitely applying significant pressure to keep the slide forward.
ya know, im not a glock hater or lover. they are good guns that
i just dont like all that much. they are very reliable and we all
know about their finish. but really, buying a new weapon and
then spending another $150 on a barrel for it. dont seem to
cost effective to me. it seems that more often than not, when
a kaboom is mentioned in a thread, the word glock is in the same
sentence. so why do glock fanatics continue to proclaim that
kabooms are mostly blamed on reloads when this is obviously
not the case ? i traded off my G23 that i never had a problem with but the unsupported chamber thing was always in the back of my mind. im not slamming glocks . im just curious as to why glock fanatics cant see
that there is somewhat of a real world problem with kabooms with
factory ammo. which to me would be cause for concern.
i just dont like all that much. they are very reliable and we all
know about their finish. but really, buying a new weapon and
then spending another $150 on a barrel for it. dont seem to
cost effective to me. it seems that more often than not, when
a kaboom is mentioned in a thread, the word glock is in the same
sentence. so why do glock fanatics continue to proclaim that
kabooms are mostly blamed on reloads when this is obviously
not the case ? i traded off my G23 that i never had a problem with but the unsupported chamber thing was always in the back of my mind. im not slamming glocks . im just curious as to why glock fanatics cant see
that there is somewhat of a real world problem with kabooms with
factory ammo. which to me would be cause for concern.
If the kaboom issue in .40 cal. glocks was real problem I think the FBI, and the many state, federal and local agencies using them would have dropped the gun and or caliber. Federal did have to recall some lots of ammo.
I think most real world users have been pleased.
The fact is that all sorts of pistols and rifles blow up, and it usually has more to do with the user and the ammo than the weapon.
I think most real world users have been pleased.
The fact is that all sorts of pistols and rifles blow up, and it usually has more to do with the user and the ammo than the weapon.
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