IDE USA Polytech M14S: talk me out of it

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Shear_stress

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I've got a dealer holding a Polytech "M14S" for me. It's side-stamped "IDE USA SFLD MICH"--the last part I take to mean "Southfield, Michigan". The gun is in nice shape, only a few scratches on the Chinese mystery wood. Serial number is 04XXX and the gun has a flash suppressor/bayonet lug on it. It comes with a sling and one magazine, nothing else.

Anyway, I've wanted one of these rifles for a while and this one could be mine for $805 OTD. There is a lot of controversy surrounding Chicom M14-clones, but the IDE-stamped ones are supposedly some of the better ones.

How good a deal is this? Definitely not the $400 these things were running in the past, but okay I guess by today's standards. Still, eight bills seems like a lot of money for something that could require a bolt replacement in the future. I could buy a nice AR for what this rifle + USGI bolt would cost and probably have something a bit more accurate, if lacking "soul".

Is there any truth to the IDE-marked ones being of better quality than others or is this an internet rumor?

Any thoughts?
 
Yes, the side stamped Poly Tech M14s offer the best quality right out of the box.

$805.00 OTD is a very good price, they usually sell for about $1K.
The rifle is an excellent base to build on.

The minimum changes I recommend:

USGI bolt conversion (SEI and WarBird can do this without replacing the original chrome lined barrel)
USGI stock (tight fitting wood or synthetic) you will need to address the short op rod spring guide lock pin.
USGI or SPEED LOCK op rod guide spring.

The original receiver is forged, but the hardness should be check and heat treated as needed.
The original op rod is a forged 1-piece item as good as USGI TRW.
The original trigger group is also as good as USGI and responds to NM tuning as a USGI trigger group will.
The original barrel is chrome lined and as good as USGI, but it does have metric threads for the gas and muzzle device.


There is no mystery, the stock is made out of Chu wood.
 
So H2O MAN, how much would these minimum changes cost? Just a ball park figure would be nice, I also have a friend selling one, but I have not seen it yet.
 
It's been a few years and the price of USGI bolts has gone way up, but you should be able to buy the rifle,
replacement parts and have the work done for a grand total cost near what a new Springfield M1A sells for.

This will give you an excellent M14 rifle that is closer to USGI than others for less money.
 
Thanks for the feedback. This would be my first foray into M14-clones and I'm trying to make sure that this would be a deal that needs to be jumped on. I find myself hesitating. Even though the rifle is apparently a good deal for what it is, I guess for someone who's not really into them (yet) the price of admission for something that could still be regarded as a project still seems a little high.
 
The bare forged receiver on that Poly Tech is dimensionally closer to USGI than LRB and Springfield and it's easily worth $805.00.
 
+1 to what H20 MAN said. That Poly M14S is a steal, you should definitely pick it up. Even if you don't do anything with it, you could easily sell it and make $300 profit. M14/M1As are hard to come by around here and those who have them won't sell them.
 
H2O Man is accurate in what he has written. Furthermore, the ordnance steel they used on that rifle's forged receiver is superior to what is used on USGI American rifles and definitely to that on the Springfield rifles. Great deal there! As an alternative, I would look at what services Clint McKee at Fulton Armory might still be offering.
 
H2O Man is accurate in what he has written. Furthermore, the ordnance steel they used on that rifle's forged receiver is superior to what is used on USGI American rifles and definitely to that on the Springfield rifles. Great deal there! As an alternative, I would look at what services Clint McKee at Fulton Armory might still be offering.

Have you read Different's book, it's a must read for the M14 enthusiast/expert. I posted this elsewhere as it seems to be a popular subject these days. Here is some further test date on a Chinese bolt and receiver:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=283219

It's funny people love dogging SAI just like the rest of the big guys (Remington and Bushmaster come to mind). I've read Lee Emerson's book a few times and own a newly manufactured SAI M1A (made 8/2009).

You guys should read the section on commercial receiver geometry. Actually you should read the whole chapter on commercial M14's. It goes through the differences in geometry and also goes on to compare an SAI select fire M1A as almost identical to a USGI M14.

Here is an interesting section on the chinese M14's (again taken from Lee Emerson's fine book M14 RIFLE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT, I assume he does not mind as he puts a text only version of this book for download for free on the internet):

Karl Maunz was living in Atlanta, GA when Keng’s Firearms Specialty imported Poly
Technologies M14/S rifles. Keng’s Firearms Specialty supplied him with two Poly
Technologies M14/S rifles for testing and evaluation. He found the receiver to be made
of equivalent AISI 8620 alloy steel. The receiver material testing conducted by Smith
Enterprise and Karl Maunz was done independently of each other. The Chinese bolts,
however, were not made of the USGI drawing specified alloy steel.

The Smith Enterprise testing included hardness testing of the Poly Technologies receiver
core by cutting it apart. One Poly Technologies receiver was tested to destruction by
loading ammunition to create excessively high chamber pressure. The reader MUST
NOT exceed powder charges as listed in reputable reloading manuals if hand loaded
ammunition is used. Personal injury or death may occur if done so. The very first Poly
Technologies receivers were very hard, harder than a file, which left them without the
toughness provided by the relatively soft core of receivers made according to USGI
specifications. The Chinese arsenal quickly corrected this by strictly adhering to the
receiver heat treatment procedure.

After Smith Enterprise completed the evaluation, a second meeting of the parties involved
was held. Even after this second meeting, Poly Technologies did not correct all the
concerns of Smith Enterprise and Keng’s Firearms Specialty had regarding the Chinese
bolt. Specifically, 1) the bolt locking lugs were too narrow and 2) the carburizing and
hardness remained unsatisfactory because State Arsenal 356 did not change the
material to equivalent AISI 8620 steel but continued to use steel equivalent to AISI 4135.
This was in spite of the fact that Keng’s Firearms Specialty offered to supply USGI M14
bolts until Poly Technologies could manufacture its own bolts according to USGI
specifications. Poly Technologies refused this offer from Keng’s Firearms Specialty. The
Chinese never changed the bolt material for M14 type rifles exported to the United States.

So yes the Chinese M14 are forged but if they never completely got a handle on the heat treatment process specially in the bolts. Also they as all other commercial M14's have many differences that separate them from a real M14 as they must.

I like my SAI M1A. A USGI scope mount fits on it (with the required modification done by SEI) and the scope is right in the middle of it's adjustments like it should be so I assume the geometry is fine. I've had a few chances to have it side by side with a Chinese M14 and the SAI definitely is finished better (as far as the final machining/finishing goes) you can tell that from feet away. I do also believe that the SAI op rod, trigger group, bolt, sights etc. are all very well made. I sold most of my big ticket USGI parts because I found the commercial parts to be of good quality (though I have obviously not done any quantitative or destructive testing).

Again if I had the chance to pick up a Chinese M14 for say $700 I would definitely do it but it would be taking a trip to SEI for the bolt conversion and testing/heat treatment. I know many shoot theirs as is but that is their prerogative as long as they know the whole story behind their rifle.

And yes SAI has had their fair share of problems over the years but they dealt with them via recalls and uprades to their design.
 
Lee Emerson referred me to Ron Smith at SEI several years ago and over the
years I have had personal conversations with both individuals on this subject.
These conversations, Lee's historical documentation and Ron's mastery at
transforming Chinese M14s into extremely accurate, ultra reliable works
of art has convinced me that the ChiCom M14 is the best deal going.

The exterior finish on ChiCom M14s ranges from a little rough to fantastic.
The interior machining is dimensionally correct, USGI & SEI parts fit and
function as they should and as they would in a USGI receiver.
 
These conversations, Lee's historical documentation and Ron's mastery at
transforming Chinese M14s into extremely accurate, ultra reliable works
of art has convinced me that the ChiCom M14 is the best deal going.

Yes from the looks your chinese rifles SEI builds are top notch. If I were on a budget War Bird's is a good option. Many other M14 smiths do not work on the chinese rifles (Ted Brown I believe is one). Fulton makes you scrap the barrel so I would avoid them too.
 
so would the rifle in question here be superior to a springfield m1a national match, after the mods being mentioned? (new bolt, etc...)

i ask because i know where a national match is that could be had by me for just a tick over 1100 dollars.

sorry to sorta threadjack, but i figured it was kinda pertinent to the info the o.p. is pursuing.

(the rifle i mention is new, never fired, and looks to have a s.s. barrel.)
 
A chinese conversion like is going to come in over $1100 for just the rifle plus bolt conversion. You throw in testing for hardness, heat treating and the the other upgrades like trigger work, unitizing the gas system etc. it gets up there, call around to get an estimate. Granted some will say you don't need to test the receiver for hardness.

An SAI NM in good condition (make sure it is not a loaded) for $1100 is a good deal.
 
How necessary is a USGI bolt? Is the headspace thing really an issue or is it a product of folks using the wrong (i.e. .308 not 7.62 NATO) gauges? In other words, are the bolts on most of these guns actually as soft as some people claim or are folks not properly headspacing these rifles with the right gauges and with the bolts stripped? There are a few posts around from folks who have done hardness tests of Norinco and Polytech bolts and have not found them lacking.

Just to play devil's advocate, does it make sense to spend another grand accurizing this rifle when there are other .308 semi-autos available that are good to go out of the box? I know from previous threads that H20 Man is not a big fan of ARs, but the DPMS .308 has a very good reputation.
 
The plus side with Fulton is that he can put a heavy Krieger 1X10 twist match barrel on it!
His work is superb and he has his own take on what you want to use for a barrel. I believe he built rifles for the National Matches. So yes I would have gone for the Krieger barrel, which I did!
 
ARs and AR-10 are fine, I just prefer the M14 :)

You can shoot the original bolt for a few thousand rounds, but I am much more confident with a properly head spaced USGI bolt installed.

Both SEI and WarBird can install whatever barrel you want
I really like the medium heavy, 4 groove, 1:10 ROT Crazy Horse barrels from SEI.


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