idea for a new military rifle concept

[trekker73]

I'd be pushing for a 12mm base diameter. Basically as wide as a. 45. Then you add the extreme 45mm OAL, and it's essential my pistol has a specially designed grip because that's huge.
The exact amount of taper would be carefully decided. also it might have a polymer coating to aid feeding. Just. Like the 5. 7x28
much of the length is taken up by the very long VLD bullet, but case capacity would be maybe 70% of 556.

Okay about 21 grains. So 45 case head or not and what is the length of the cartridge, sorry if I missed it? You said basically a 45 or 10mm necked down, which one? Might be handy to push a concept that involves existing production tooling? Can you put together a case diagram ot basic concept for us to look at ? I know what the 224 boz etc looks like but there is a difference between 45acp and 10mm case length. Which relates best to the long VLD and COAL you have in mind?

Energy is 1100, from a 20. 7 inch barrel.Range would easily exceed an M4, the caliber and performance are identical to the 4. 7mm HK case less...... or the 4. 85 british. Which was a 500m round. The 4. 7HK had no issues with barrel wear.

Keep in mind battle rifle performance is not just about maximum range engagements. What range does your VLD start to outrun a 5.56 energy wise?

The 4.6 HK case lost in trials against the 5.7x28 due to less target effectiveness. Just personal opinion only the 5.56 is already weak enough sauce. again my personal opinion only but the majority of 1st world warfare these days is policing 3rd world insurgents. I think this space race for 'logistics' at some point took a back seat to killing power, especially in this era where we never face down large amounts of enemy our our own parity. We are shooting at people running for the hills because we have a a multi-platform war machine behind us. I was a contractor in the middle east after I left the army for several years, and though it is 10 year old anecdote I remember there was a big push to get more 7.62 x 51. A lot of the Euro guys had them, everyone drooling over their g3's.

Thats just my personal opinion mind you, my army had the FAL before they went to 5.56 so I am part of 'that old crowd'. Good luck with your venture, anything new is interesting.

 

[entropy]

Hi I'm new to the forum. I had an idea for a new small arms concept which A) has a drastic weight reduction over 556 packages, and B) the ammo can be shared with a handgun.

To get 556 range from a handgun round, the bullet diameter is 4.9mm (shoots extremely flat) and the bullpup rifle has a 20 inch barrel. Additionally the energies are over 1000ft/lbs because the case is very fat, basically a 10mm /. 45, necked down to. 19 caliber.

The pistol has a carefully designed grip to allow the huge round.

To achieve the weight reduction, the ammo uses aluminum cases, or possibly polymer steel hybrids. Rifle is only 2. 9kg and the light ammo allows light magazines.

Anyway the only snag points I could see was whether my extreme case shape was viable, especially trying to make it feed well. Imagine a 45acp case with very tiny 4. 9mm bullets. Any thoughts on that?

The other thing I considered was sabots, with a smaller 17 caliber bullet at extreme energies. The sabots main purpose would be to reduce barrel wear.

The problem is that sabots are hard to make accurate. The bullets would be far heavier than the 10 grain darts used in the SPEW/ACR experiments. I think that was the cause of their innacuracy.

Anyway if you can see any flaws or problems, please point them out.

Rich

Been done. P90 and 5-7 handgun.

Research the HK G11. And the MP 7. Granted they shoot two different rounds, but it would be easy to standardize them on either the 4.7x33 or the 4.6x30. So close to what you describe, one might think you plagiarized it. Note that it isn't in production. (The G11, the MP 7 is in limited numbers.) Now ask yourself why the company that made the MP5 series SMG doesn't market the G11. If they couldn't make it viable, why do you who knows little about gun development, (and optics) think you can?

 

[MartinS]

Sabots do more than affect barrel wear. They give the bullet a larger piston area to capture more of the energy of the expanding propellant gases, more square inches get more of those pounds per square inch.

 

[mnrivrat]

.45 ACP case necked down a .19 caliber sounds like a high pressure concern to me. All idea's are worth looking at and from that standpoint which ones become worth total evaluation. I will pass on this one for now.

 

[richalexander97]

Okay about 21 grains. So 45 case head or not and what is the length of the cartridge, sorry if I missed it? You said basically a 45 or 10mm necked down, which one? Might be handy to push a concept that involves existing production tooling? Can you put together a case diagram ot basic concept for us to look at ? I know what the 224 boz etc looks like but there is a difference between 45acp and 10mm case length. Which relates best to the long VLD and COAL you have in mind?



Keep in mind battle rifle performance is not just about maximum range engagements. What range does your VLD start to outrun a 5.56 energy wise?

The 4.6 HK case lost in trials against the 5.7x28 due to less target effectiveness. Just personal opinion only the 5.56 is already weak enough sauce. again my personal opinion only but the majority of 1st world warfare these days is policing 3rd world insurgents. I think this space race for 'logistics' at some point took a back seat to killing power, especially in this era where we never face down large amounts of enemy our our own parity. We are shooting at people running for the hills because we have a a multi-platform war machine behind us. I was a contractor in the middle east after I left the army for several years, and though it is 10 year old anecdote I remember there was a big push to get more 7.62 x 51. A lot of the Euro guys had them, everyone drooling over their g3's.

Thats just my personal opinion mind you, my army had the FAL before they went to 5.56 so I am part of 'that old crowd'. Good luck with your venture, anything new is interesting.

Case width matches a 45. That's much wider than the 10mm and the 224 boz.

Case height might be taller than a 45.
Cartridge would resemble a 17PPC....visually.
Pressures arent an issue because its a very heavy 19. Bullet....50grain like the 4.7HK.
Performance matches the 4.7HK and the 4.85 british.
These rounds greatly outrange 556.

energy is only 1100 but retained energy is superb, and of course ttajectory.
Comparing it to 5.7mm/4.6x30 is pointless...it has easily 4x the range.

I wouldnt actually reuse the 45 case...its a scratch built case. And that VLD bullet extends greatly from the case. OAL is similar to the 22 fireball.

The concern is feeding...a problem with benchrest carttidges.
Apparently the boz fed quite well.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

One thing I know is that there is an ironclad rule that no matter how much we make the service rifle lighter, we find things to bolt onto it so that it ends up weighing the same as it did before it went on a diet.

We apply this same philosophy to the infantryman.

 

[mjsdwash]

bullpups are stupid, and a novelty. Does any country that ever intended to really fight in a equal war adopt one? I suppose the UK, and theirs was a disaster. In war conditions the novelty wears off. The NATO grenade launcher acts as a funnel, and getting concrete dust, or sand or mud in the barrel is bad enough in a rifle, in a bullpup, a barrel rupture is 100X deadlier. What little gain you get from shortening the system is lost with the bad ergonomics, and people don't shoot them good enough to take advantage of the potential accuracy gains of a longer barrel (which translates to greater velocity, and flatter curve).
Extreme difficulty of clearing malfunctions, the seemingly unavoidability of re-engineering and adding weight, and unintuitive controls are a major issue. Read up on existing bullpup designs that see meaningful success, such as the SA80, AUG, Famas Fn2000, Tavor, and you'll see they all outweigh the M16, M16A1, and M4 by a decent amount. Even the AKM and M16A2 are still a little lighter than most, and while they aren't quite as short, they are much steadier, and more intuitive to carry with the barrel pointing up, making them more compact in practice in many cases.

As for the round itself, there is a limit to how small and light you can go. The 5.56 is already there in the minds of many in the militaries of the world. While its a decent anti personal round out to 600 yards, its a weak anti material round at any range. Bullet design keeps it going in the air, but you still need mass to do damage. A bullet in the 25-35gr range you describe would hit like a pellet gun at 500 yards, and fail at the one real deficiency of the 5.56, only worse. At closer range, it would be no more effective. high speed and small bore equal barrel erosion. The smaller the bore, the more likely a rupture can occur.

The big driver for lighter faster firing small arms has historically been resupply. With helicopters and drones that issue is no longer present in the typical asymmetrical wars we take on. Given that we are fighting these wars against dedicated enemies, in developed nations, with access to armor, accurate weapons, we are looking the other direction toward bigger, heavier, slower bullets. The 6.8 makes a lot of sense in these circumstances. But ultimately, unless your company is big enough to pay for some congressmans re-election, your not getting a major military contract anyway.


Edit to add, today I did hear at least one congressman, Dick Durban ranting like an idiot about a military conflict with Russia... so maybe the above won't apply. .... Wolverines!!

 

[trekker73]

Case width matches a 45. That's much wider than the 10mm and the 224 boz.

you said in your first post it might be 10mm/.45 so wasnt sure what you intended.

Case height might be taller than a 45.
Cartridge would resemble a 17PPC....visually.
I wouldnt actually reuse the 45 case...its a scratch built case. And that VLD bullet extends greatly from the case. OAL is similar to the 22 fireball.

Scratch built case, of specialised substances? well you either have some money or serious shop skills bud. Ive wildcatted cartridges, rather gotten gunsmiths to do the real work, while I just shortened, blew out or necked down and all on existing cases.

if you want a longer 45 what about cutting down 308 or 30-06 brass? Similar case head to 45 acp, high pressure, you will need to check powder capacity and thickness of the rifle cartridges that close to the web though. Not lightweight but at least if the external dims are close to what you want, you can use it for dummies and feeding work

The concern is feeding...a problem with benchrest carttidges.
Apparently the boz fed quite well.

I think you need to solidfy some case specs, before you plug the idea further.

 

[Mosin77]

Regardless whether this idea (or any other) is practical to build in your home shop, it’s fun to talk about ideas.

I’m not sure why there is a need for so much dramatically less theoretical recoil vs 5.56. Those rifles can already be shot perfectly well by women and children, so what does it really gain in practice?

 

[trekker73]

Regardless whether this idea (or any other) is practical to build in your home shop, it’s fun to talk about ideas.

I agree but if the OP's main question in his words was whether it will feed well. he needs to decide the actual case specs first.

 

[richalexander97]

View attachment 963777
Cartridge is near identical to this..thw 225 jaws.
But with a slimmer bullet that extends far beyond this csrtridge.

Being a scratch designed case i would carefully decide the best amount of taper for good feeding

EDIT....i should have mentioned...
The pistol uses reverse feeding like the bond arms pistol.
Also it has a rear extension like the steyr tmp or MP9.​

 

[entropy]

Sabots do more than affect barrel wear. They give the bullet a larger piston area to capture more of the energy of the expanding propellant gases, more square inches get more of those pounds per square inch.

They also foul the barrel with the sabot material.

View attachment 963778 View attachment 963777
Cartridge is near identical to this..thw 225 jaws.
But with a slimmer bullet that extends far beyond this csrtridge.

Being a scratch designed case i would carefully decide the best amount of taper for good feeding

EDIT....i should have mentioned...
The pistol uses reverse feeding like the bond arms pistol.
Also it has a rear extension like the steyr tmp or MP9.​

Again, I fail to see where this would be a better solution than rechambering either the G11 or the MP 7 for round commonality. If HK can't come up with this, why do you think you can? Study weapons design for a while, and get back to us. I suggest Ian V. Hogg's How Guns Work, as a primer, then some metallurgy lessons, then start studying weapons design history. Then some machining training, and start working up prototypes. You'll find that there's nothing new under the sun, weapons wise, it's all been done before. Until the 40 waqtt phased plasma rifle is a reality. That's where you should be looking. Successes stay in production, until someone improves the design of one. (1911 to the HP 35, as an example.)

Your short, stubby round will fail in feeding in full auto use, most likely in semi-auto too, though the 22 TCM I fired didn't. the Short Mag rifle rounds don't always like to feed even in bolt actions. (There will be those who claim theirs don't, but they haven't had 20-25 a year come through their gun shop for that, either. I have.)

I like your enthusiasm for weapons design and scoping them, but educate yourself first. Solve the big picture problems first before tackling the details. I wish electric car designers would have.

 

[CapnMac]

Pressures arent an issue because its a very heavy 19. Bullet....50grain like the 4.7HK.
Performance matches the 4.7HK and the 4.85 british.
These rounds greatly outrange 556.

energy is only 1100 but retained energy is superb, and of course ttajectory.
Comparing it to 5.7mm/4.6x30 is pointless...it has easily 4x the range.

Ah, no. You are not going to get the performance of a 49mm case in 23mm (the enfield was 4.8x49; .45acp is 11.43x23).
The case volumes are different.
Your premise is a rifle velocity round in a pistol round sized case. Using a round with a third the mass of a pistol round.

Even if, intellectually, we are asking to build a 4.8x23 with a bit more case diameter, you are still reducing case volume by well over half. To "get back" the velocity would want a powder twice as powerful.
And, by necessity up against a super-sharp case shoulder. At pressures that are going to try and rip the shoulder off the case. And slam the case against both the camber and the breach.

Those pressures are not going to let you use a polymer case, either, not with the thicker case walls that will be required, and the need to contain those enormous pressures.

People have been trying to get rifle performance out f a pistol for a couple centuries now. The problem is that pistols and rifles are very different systems, and are not interchangeable. There are reasons people do not make handguns in .243. Or rifles in .327mag

 

[BigBlue 94]

There are reasons people do not make handguns in .243. Or rifles in .327mag

Thats not true, though your point remains valid. There are bolt action and single shot .243 (and larger) pistols and 32mag/327 rifles. But in both cases, they are specialty firearms with virtually zero uses on a modern battlefield.

The OP should consider the original 44 auto mag. It was created to have a rimless 44mag for automatic pistols. It was simply a .308 win case cut to 44mag case length and loaded with a .429 projectile. To achieve his specified round, he cant start with a pistol case. The neck and shoulder just take so much brass to form. Necking down a 450BM or 50B case would be where i would start.

Using Boberg's 'bullpup' design pulls the cartridge backwards into 'battery postition' on the bolt face, then inserted into the chamber perfectly straight. The magazine is designed in a way that the nose of the bullet points down, and the base points up at about the same angle as a 22LR pistol mag. Many MGs used this method as well to pull a cartridge out of a belt. I was in no way talking about bullpup rifles. This can alleviate the feed issues with a short cartridge with a big steep shoulder.

 

[CapnMac]

Thats not true, though your point remains valid.

Ok, I should have said commonly available multi-shot handguns.
After all, I used to have an XP-100 in .308--which may inform my experience in this.
That beast was a bear even with .308 Accelerators (50gr 5.56 FMJ in nylon sabots that clocked about 3200fps).
Recoil was not mitigated by using a round 1/3 the typical weight.
Flash and blast were under-pleasant as well.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Ok, I should have said commonly available multi-shot handguns.
After all, I used to have an XP-100 in .308--which may inform my experience in this.
That beast was a bear even with .308 Accelerators (50gr 5.56 FMJ in nylon sabots that clocked about 3200fps).
Recoil was not mitigated by using a round 1/3 the typical weight.
Flash and blast were under-pleasant as well.

Most certainly. I have a savage striker in 22-250. And a few contenders. The 22-250 in a 20" pistol is not a pleasant shooter for the majority of people. They have their niche though. A 30 cal bolt action pistol is a heck of an excursion hunting weapon.

 

[richalexander97]

Much of the range comes from the eficiency of the bullet alone. A VLD 4.9mm has an incredible BC.
Starting energies are poor but its the retained energy that excels.

energy requirements are only about 1050ft lbs......... bullpup has 20.7 barrel.

I really dont think you need 556 case size, to reach this.
Consider that 556 has 1360ft lbs.....from the same length of barrel.

Also, tiny rounds like the 4.6MP7....have a large power boost from long barrels. so its the same principle.

i did originally want to match the 4.85british...but thats an extra 150ft lbs....and a 55grain bullet

 

[WVRJ]

I would think it would take quite a firearm to withstand the pressures it would take to get such a long 19 caliber bullet to shoot with any speed.Pistol rounds are fat because of the piston effect.A handgun capable of doing this would have to have a lockup the likes of which hasn't been designed yet.The propellant would have to be extremely slow burning,another negative if it were to be fired in,say ,a 5 inch barrel.And it would take a twist rate of 1 in 2 to stabilize such a javelin.A pistol would try to flip over in the shooter's hand.The barrel would have to be cleaned about every third shot.Other than those little bumps,I think it would be possible...It's hard to overcome simple physics.But take it for what it's worth coming from a dumb farmer from WV.What do I know about physics?It takes all the gray matter I have to understand that 10 pounds of poo won't fit in a 5 pound bag.

 

[richalexander97]

Also...wiki says that the 556 case capacity is not much higher than 45....about 28 gtains versus 26.

Regarding pistol durability, my handgun has a rear extension....like small machine pistols....TMP and the MP9.
This means the frame is all one piece.
It has no moving pistol slide.
So it can handle a hot round.

muzzle flash and recoil are low due to the tiny bore size. I was hoping for an integrated flash hider.....some thing that, somehow, doesnt extend beyond the 5.2inch barrel.

Bullet is about 26mm long...similar to the 545 russian or 224 valkirie.
Its 50grain but yes, i can see twist rates being a problem because the 17 remington requires an extreme 1-6 rate....apparently barrel life is awful due to this.

 

[entropy]

Ah, no. You are not going to get the performance of a 49mm case in 23mm (the enfield was 4.8x49; .45acp is 11.43x23).
The case volumes are different.
Your premise is a rifle velocity round in a pistol round sized case. Using a round with a third the mass of a pistol round.

Even if, intellectually, we are asking to build a 4.8x23 with a bit more case diameter, you are still reducing case volume by well over half. To "get back" the velocity would want a powder twice as powerful.
And, by necessity up against a super-sharp case shoulder. At pressures that are going to try and rip the shoulder off the case. And slam the case against both the camber and the breach.

Those pressures are not going to let you use a polymer case, either, not with the thicker case walls that will be required, and the need to contain those enormous pressures.

People have been trying to get rifle performance out f a pistol for a couple centuries now. The problem is that pistols and rifles are very different systems, and are not interchangeable. There are reasons people do not make handguns in .243. Or rifles in .327mag

Oh, but they do, Capn Mac. But your are right about everything else here.

 

[marksman13]

The military is not going to adopt a pistol/rifle common round because there’s too much compromise in the pistol round when fired from a rifle. On top of that the military has to be concerned with barrel life and having to run a super fast twist barrel with a tiny bore is going to eat up barrels in a hurry. There’s just not enough benefit for the military to adapt this concept.

 

[WVRJ]

The original twist for the .17 Remington is 1 in 9,and the barrel life is bad because of the propensity it has for fouling due to being a small,overbore round that uses a lot of propellant in relation to bore size.A lot of the boundaries we have to stay within are simple physics with a twist.Velocity requires pressure,pressure has to be withstood.Simple physics.The twist is what kind and how much powder does it take to make enough pressure to send the bullet,and what is it going to do to the barrel?There are so many things we could do if we weren't restricted to the boundaries of physics.
I've read that perfect efficiency in a firearm would mean that the bullet would barely fall out the end of the barrel.Everything we try to do with a rifle is a trade off.Want extreme velocity?Sure,you can have it...at the cost of barrel wear and fouling,noise,recoil and muzzle flash.Want less of those?Less velocity,less flat shooting.Want a round that'll work well in a rifle,don't expect it to work well in a pistol,and vice-versa.
For example,the 243 is a great rifle round.How would it work in a 5 inch pistol?Not so good.And the 45 ACP is a great pistol round.How does it work in a rifle?Boundaries.

 

[trekker73]

I would think it would take quite a firearm to withstand the pressures it would take to get such a long 19 caliber bullet to shoot with any speed.Pistol rounds are fat because of the piston effect.A handgun capable of doing this would have to have a lockup the likes of which hasn't been designed yet.The propellant would have to be extremely slow burning,another negative if it were to be fired in,say ,a 5 inch barrel.And it would take a twist rate of 1 in 2 to stabilize such a javelin.A pistol would try to flip over in the shooter's hand.The barrel would have to be cleaned about every third shot.Other than those little bumps,I think it would be possible...It's hard to overcome simple physics.But take it for what it's worth coming from a dumb farmer from WV.What do I know about physics?It takes all the gray matter I have to understand that 10 pounds of poo won't fit in a 5 pound bag.

WVRJ is this really true? 10 lbs of poo wont fit in a 5lb bag? What if I shovel it in faster. hell this could change all my logistics up

 

[trekker73]

muzzle flash and recoil are low due to the tiny bore size. I was hoping for an integrated flash hider.....some thing that, somehow, doesnt extend beyond the 5.2inch barrel.

I got a bit lost in the latest posts but assuming we are still talking about burning 21 grains of powder at 50,000PSI that is going to be pretty nasty from 5" of barrel, with any bore size. Have you fired many handguns? Work back from a 45 colt revolver or 45 ACP to a 357 at full power or 327 snub and see the relationship between pressure, powder and noise.

 

[richalexander97]

Yes its difficult bcause im in the uk so havent fired anything.

My argument was that 1k ft lbs is not hard to achieve from a 20.7 barrel.
many small rounds have at least 800ft lbs from mid length barrels.

The 10mm auto has about 1.2k-1.3k ft lbs from that barrel length
(or even a 16 'barrel)

And my case capacity would exeed that....also its a slim bullet so that adds capacity.

Clearly the only way to find out would be to test it. necking down a 45 or 10mm and going from there.