The Patrol Rifle Concept

[AStone]

LAK,

Just to be sure I undestand your point, please clarify:

...if the recoil of medium bore selfloaders was not an issue in this regard, controlling them when in automatic fire would not be impractical.

I'm reading that as, Since medium bore selfloaders have substantial recoil, controlling them {i.e., acquiring targets} is challenging to difficult [and thus high rates of fire may be somewhat wasteful of rnds].

Does that accurately represent your assertion?

If so, I think I agree.
___________

Still loving that pump idea.

Nem

 

[LAK]

Nematocyst-870,

That there is a sight picture recovery factor and lag with any medium bore rifle be it an autoloader or a bolt-action. Were this not so in the case of any medium bore autoloader, "fully" automatic fire with the medium bore autoloaders would not be as impractical as it is.

The idea that one can fire at, and "track", a moving target say out to 200 yards with an autoloader, but this can not be done with equal practicality with a bolt-action, bears some explaining.

I'm reading that as, Since medium bore selfloaders have substantial recoil, controlling them {i.e., acquiring targets} is challenging to difficult [and thus high rates of fire may be somewhat wasteful of rnds].

This applies as well; and one solid hit with a medium bore hunting type softpoint should put most targets out of action.

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[Bartholomew Roberts]

Why are we arguing about this still? Get a shot timer and go out to the range. Come back and report the times and course of fire here.

 

[Correia]

Actually LAK, the standard test drill for shotgun reloads is, from the buzzer, fire one, load 4, fire one. Anybody who can do this in under four is doing awesome.

There is plenty of art in this.

I've shot as many as 36 shots in a single 3gun stage. Shotgun reloading speed is what wins the shotgun stages.

And no, a double gun, auto-eject or not, can not keep up whatsoever.

Like Bart says, grab a timer. There is no reason to pontificate when you can actually just go shoot.

 

[LAK]

Like Bart says, grab a timer. There is no reason to pontificate when you can actually just go shoot

You have either miscontrued, or tried to turn this, into a personal claim on my part.

We should get something straight here, which should have been clear in the manner in which I brought it up. I did not claim what I personally could do with any particular arm - against anyone else with something different; only what the arms are mechanically capable of in the right hands.

A revolver can be fired faster than a selfloading pistol - not because "I can do it", but because it is a mechanical issue. Mr Miculek can as it happens, shoot one faster than anyone else. I can work a s-b-s 12 very quickly - but there are plenty faster than I.

I agree that the reloading is the key; but you still have not stated in precisely what manner the shells to be reloaded are kept to hand. I am interested to know whether this is on a looped belt, pouch - or are they laid out on a bench?

Some people can for instance hold two shells between the supporting fingers for the first reload. But four? Likewise pulling two shells from a looped belt at one time is very feasible. Since a double 12 is reloaded and fired in twos this is one of the reasons it can fired so quickly.

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[Correia]

I never said, nor thought, that you were saying you could do these feats. However what I am telling you, is that the best shooters in the world, who compete for money, some of who do this stuff for a living, disagree with you on every count. To the people who have winning as everything, and do nothing but train, experiment, and shoot, they disagree with you about equipment.

On the shotgun reloading, it isn't from the bench at all. Usually we have to be moving, sometimes in really awkward positions. I load from a bandolier around my chest. If your hands are big enough you grasp 4 shells, and pull them off at one time. Other guys use rigs that hold a row of shells horizontally on their belt. Others load off of side saddles, butt cuffs, or even shell holders on their wrists.

And for the record, Jerry Mickulek is the world's fastest revolver shooter. When he competes he uses a 1911.

 

[seeker_two]

And for the record, Jerry Mickulek is the world's fastest revolver shooter. When he competes he uses a 1911.

The HECK he does...

Custom S&W 627 in .38Super or 625 .45ACP (whatever he's in the mood for... )

Now, he does use an AR for 3-gun matches--usually a DPMS...

 

[Titus]

I love the clip of him with the pump shotgun on that old Shooting USA!

 

[mohican]

Cosmoline

I know the cartridge is a little bigger than you are looking for, but how about
the Steyr m95 carbine (straight pull bolt) in 8X56R?

 

[ChristopherG]

The great Mr. Miculek competes with a revolver at wheelgun events, when shooting in wheelgun categories, and in steel shoots. When he competes in (and wins!) 3-gun matches, he uses a 1911.

 

[Correia]

Chris is right. I've shot in some of the same matches as Jerry M. (I'm usually 225 places or so behind whatever he comes in at) And when he shoots 3gun competition he shoots a 1911.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Careful, you AR-heads. You're gonna make us old-fashioned guys cry.

 

[Cosmoline]

I know the cartridge is a little bigger than you are looking for, but how about the Steyr m95 carbine (straight pull bolt) in 8X56R?

I'd say it's part of the historical "patrol rifle" class, since the cut down models were in fact used by Austrian police during the period. But I think the loads would have to be toned down to .308 levels. Some of that surplus is downright scary.

 

[LAK]

Correia

I never said, nor thought, that you were saying you could do these feats.

That's uh, not quite what this statement indicates ....

Like Bart says, grab a timer. There is no reason to pontificate when you can actually just go shoot

But I am glad we got that straight all the same

However what I am telling you, is that the best shooters in the world, who compete for money, some of who do this stuff for a living, disagree with you on every count.

Pehaps what many use in competition. But what Mr Miculek uses in competition does not equate to "a 1911 shoots faster than a revolver".

And it follows that just because many or most people in competition use this type of weapon or another does not necessarily in and of itself mean that those particular arms can do something another can not do or surpass on a particular point.

I should point out that I do not disparage competition to the point where I would say that much of it has no merit in the practical world, but that competition is not the last word in practical shooting.

What Miculek uses in competition as opposed to what he can do with something else proves that point.

On the shotgun reloading, it isn't from the bench at all. Usually we have to be moving, sometimes in really awkward positions. I load from a bandolier around my chest. If your hands are big enough you grasp 4 shells, and pull them off at one time. Other guys use rigs that hold a row of shells horizontally on their belt. Others load off of side saddles, butt cuffs, or even shell holders on their wrists.

Thanks; that is a crucial issue when relating any kind of drill to the practical world.

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[Bartholomew Roberts]

Does it matter what a firearm is mechanically capable of if less than 1% of the population is even capable of appreciating that difference? From a practical perspective, semi-autos outrun bolts for a very good reason. The Army just moved to a semi-auto sniper rifle and cited speed of the next shot as the major factor. If school-trained snipers find a semi-auto faster than a bolt, then it doesn't matter whether a bolt is mechanically capable of being faster (and I disagree even with that premise).

 

[mustanger98]

I sure am glad I opted to take a break from this thread.

Now that the sidearms have been introduced into this conflict of interests, I recall a few years ago that Bob Munden (on the old "American Shooter") did a comparison of the three types- 1911, S&W DA revolver, and his tricked out Colt's he normally shoots with. The timer showed that the old Colt SAA was fastest followed by the S&W DA. The 1911 was slowest just because of the time it took for the action to cycle. But you have to be able to shoot faster than the gun to notice. This is why I still think we all need to just run with what we each like and forget about this nonsense about competing just to show "how good" the AR-15 allegedly is.

 

[roscoe]

I would like to see him shoot a SAA faster than he does a double-action revolver. That must be quite a sight.

 

[mustanger98]

I would like to see him shoot a SAA faster than he does a double-action revolver. That must be quite a sight.

It was. But his ability to do it had a lot to do with the SAA's ability to be "double-fanned" as opposed to the DA revolver having to be either thumb-cocked or fired DA. That and his being so fast with a SA sixgun to begin with. Remember, he grew up shooting fast draw competition before going into exhibition shooting.

The Army just moved to a semi-auto sniper rifle and cited speed of the next shot as the major factor. If school-trained snipers find a semi-auto faster than a bolt, then it doesn't matter whether a bolt is mechanically capable of being faster.

So the Army snipers are getting away from "One Shot, One Kill" in favor of speed. This don't sound good for them at all. On the other hand, I recall the M1C and M1D sniper rifles... Garands... and the M24 which was a scoped M-14.

As for Jerry Miculek, although I've seen him competing on TV with a 1911, I do recall he made his reputation for speed with a DA revolver. But he's not the only one. Anybody here ever read Ed McGivern?

 

[Correia]

Rosco, I've seen Bob do it. He fan fires it that way. Hammer is cocked. Left hand is hovering above gun. Trigger is pulled and held down. (no disconnecter) hammer is cocked and immediatly falls by thumb, finger 1, 2, 3, and pinkey in one sweep. Making a 6 round burst. It is a pretty neat trick.

 

[Correia]

Mustanger, yeah, what do those professional army snipers who want a semi-auto know about sniping.

 

[akodo]

I really wish I had seen this thread at the start. I was trying to hold back until I read all the replies, but could not resist.

Patrol Rifle.

-a handy firearm to carry in addtion to a handgun for those times when a bit more is needed, be it by a police officer on duty or a citizen after a hurricane, riot, or other difficulty.

-A light, short, fast handling rifle, good for close work, and capable of delivering accuate distance fire.

-chambered in a round more potent than the traditional pistol calibers, including intermediate rifle rounds, and the lightest true rifle rounds. It needs to be able to defeat barriers that a standard pistol cannot, yet recoil softly enough for easy use by even the smallest, gun novice person, male or female

-Capacity requirement minimum 5 shots, no maximum, but must be able to accept lower capacity magazines for situations where a big 30 rounder is a.)too bulky, b.)not legally available, c.)political/public perception factor

-is NOT an assault rifle and NOT an assault weapon (semi-auto version of assault rifle)

Why is 'not an assault rifle or assault weapon' part of the definition? Well, there have been times when the average citizen could not purchase said assault weapon, or must purchase neutered versions. Back before the federal ban expired, I don't think an AR-15 with a 10 round magazine was superior enough to a lever action 44 mag or an SKS or a whole handful of firearms to justify it's greater cost. Some states and cities still have their own version of the assault weapon ban in place, or it could simply be due to public perception an 'evil black assault rifle' is undesirable.

 

[ghost squire]

What new semi are Army snipers using? Is it an AR-15 derivative? Cause I know the Marine Scout Snipers just got a new bolt rifle.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Army recently announced that Knights SR-25 won the contract for the SASS (Semi-Auto Sniper System) and USSOCOM is reportedly going with it as well. This system will not be replacing all bolt guns; but is being procured based on experiences in Iraq where ample targets and brief exposure times for those targets in an urban environment have led the Army to determine that a semi-auto would be more effective for that specific role.

 

[ghost squire]

It's a good idea, I've seen that video of a Blackwater sniper using up like 10 magazines sniping with his RAS equipped AR. And a 7.62 would have done a lot better at the ranges he was shooting at...

I wonder why they went with this over an M14 though.

 

[benEzra]

-is NOT an assault rifle and NOT an assault weapon (semi-auto version of assault rifle)

Why is 'not an assault rifle or assault weapon' part of the definition? Well, there have been times when the average citizen could not purchase said assault weapon, or must purchase neutered versions.

Back before the federal ban expired, I don't think an AR-15 with a 10 round magazine was superior enough to a lever action 44 mag or an SKS or a whole handful of firearms to justify it's greater cost.

AR-15 magazines weren't affected at all by the 1994 Federal AWB, since most AR-15 mags on the planet were manufactured before September 1994 and are therefore completely exempt. AK mags were actually cheaper during the ban than they are now.

The AWB mainly jacked up the prices of handgun magazines, not rifle mags.

Some states and cities still have their own version of the assault weapon ban in place, or it could simply be due to public perception an 'evil black assault rifle' is undesirable.

True, but I don't think writing that into the definition of "patrol rifle" makes much sense, considering that most police patrol rifles are AR-15's.

There have been several articles on patrol rifles (their term) for regular rank-and-file police officers in Police Marksman over the years, and nearly every one endorses the civilian AR-15 as THE best choice.