The Patrol Rifle Concept

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I'm not excluding semis. I'm not sure where you got that idea. My point was simply that excluding bolts, levers and pumps is a stupid idea. They're far faster than most shooters give them credit for. My aimed rate of fire with the CZ, off hand or bench, is at least equal to my aimed rate of fire with an SKS or AK clone.
 
I have a hard time believing your rate of fire is the same with a bolt. Your either inept with a semi auto or your Lee Harvy Oswald with a bolt gun. Bolts can not be shot as fast as semi's with the same accuracy . The closer the range is the more apparant this becomes. I could send you a copy of our patrol rifle course and see if you can make the times. That would be a good test for you.
Pat
 
AIMED rate of fire. Any fool can cap off rounds with a semi UNaimed. Have you ever seen anyone take your course with a mini-mauser or compact levergun? If not, how can you be so certain?

And it's "you're either inept" not "your either inept."

You guys have a patrol rifle course in Bethel? I didn't think you even had a rifle range there. I will concede that on average the semi has some advantage in rate of fire and certainly in capacity, but for the purposes I'm talking about these are academic. Lots of folks don't seem to have a clue just how fast a compact bolt action, levergun or pump can operate. It's part of the "tacticool" prejudice that's spread like a disease these past thirty years.
 
QUOTE
AIMED rate of fire. Any fool can cap off rounds with a semi UNaimed. Have you ever seen anyone take your course with a mini-mauser or compact levergun? If not, how can you be so certain?

And it's "you're either inept" not "your either inept."

You guys have a patrol rifle course in Bethel? I didn't think you even had a rifle range there. I will concede that on average the semi has some advantage in rate of fire and certainly in capacity, but for the purposes I'm talking about these are academic. Lots of folks don't seem to have a clue just how fast a compact bolt action, levergun or pump can operate. It's part of the "tacticool" prejudice that's spread like a disease these past thirty years.
END QUOTE

I was talking about aimed fire as well. Here is an easy drill for you. From a low ready at 7 yards fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds at a ISPC Brussels target. For more of a challenge on the SERT course fire 2 rounds in 1.5 seconds. Or for more range. Go from standing to prone and fire 2 rounds in 8 seconds from 100 yards. For SERT standard complete it in 6 seconds. That is not going to happen with a bolt gun. There is a separate bolt action rifle qualification simply because it can't keep up with a semi auto. Lever's and pumps are much faster and come much closer to rivaling a semi auto for fast accurate AIMED FIRE.

As for Bethel not to pat my own back but I got the patrol rifle program started there. We did have a police only range that you can just barely eek 100 yards out of. Bethel was the home of the first school shooting active shooter situation well before Columbine. Active shooter situations are on the rise. Workplace violence has been steadily going up despite an overall trend towards lower crime. People are getting mad and taking guns to work and killing people. Semi auto patrol rifles best handle this threat.

By the way I no longer work in Bethel I moved on to a PD on the road system.

AR15's are not popular because of a tacticool image. They just happen to be the best tool for the job.
Pat
 
Maybe you should practice more with a semi to get the most out of it Cosmoline... The time you spend cycling the bolt you could be spending aiming and pulling the trigger.

I must agree with 355sigfan both on that issue and the fact that a semi-auto 5.56 and in particular the AR-15 (because its so widely used) fit the bill very well.
 
Heck I will just post the whole patrol rifle course. Try it for fun and see how your bolt does. You will need a rifle with a sling 50 rounds of ammo a shot timer and a ISPC brussels target. This is the Alaska State Trooper and Anchorage PD standard patrol rifle course.

Stage 1. 100 yards. 8 seconds

From the guard (low ready magazine loaded chamber loaded safety on with muzzle at a 45 degree angle and weapon mounted) drop to prone and fire 2 rounds to the chest in 8 seconds. Repeat this stage twice. (for a total of 3 times)

Stage 2. 50 yards. 6 seconds

From the guard position drop to prone and fire 2 rounds to the chest in 6 seconds. repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)

Stage 3. 25 yards. 18 seconds

From a guard position fire two rounds to the chest standing, speed load, drop to kneeling and fire 2 more rounds in 18 seconds. repeat once (for a total of two times)

Stage 4. 15 yards. 5 seconds

From a slung position (weapon out of hands slung either in a team sling or african or american carry) fire 2 rounds to the chest standing in 5 seconds. repeat twice ( for a total of 3 times)

Stage 5. 15 yards. 3.5 seconds

From the guard position drop to kneeling and fire 2 rounds to the chest in 3.5 seconds. Repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)

Stage 6. 7 yards 2 seconds.

From the guard position fire two rounds to the chest in 2 seconds. Repeat twice. (for a total of three times)

Stage 7. 5 yards 3.5 seconds.

From the guard postion fire two rounds to the chest and one round to the head in 3.5 seconds. Repeat once (for a total of two times)

Stage 8. 3 yards. 1.5 seconds.

From the guard postion fire two rounds to the chest in 1.5 seconds. Repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)

Scoring

A zone hits are worth 5 points
B zone hits on all stages except 7 are worth 4 points. (Stage 7 is the fail to stop if you miss the A zone of the head and hit the b zone you get 1 point)
B zone hits on Stage 7 1 point.
C zone hits are worth 4 points.
D zone hits are worth 1 point.

All overtime shots are -5 points from the end score.

Max score possible is 250.
Passing is 200. (80%)

The SERT Urban Rifle qual is as follows.

Stage 1. 100 yards. 6 seconds (Prone)

From the guard (low ready magazine loaded chamber loaded safety on with muzzle at a 45 degree angle and weapon mounted) drop to prone and fire 2 rounds to the chest in 6 seconds. Repeat this stage once. (for a total of 2 times)

Stage 2. 50 yards. 6 seconds (any position)

From the guard position fire 2 rounds to the chest in 6 seconds. repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)

Stage 3. 25 yards. 14 seconds (standing kneeling)

From a guard position fire two rounds to the chest standing, speed load, drop to kneeling and fire 2 more rounds in 14 seconds. repeat once (for a total of two times)

Stage 4. 15 yards. 5 seconds (slung standing)

From a slung position (weapon out of hands slung either in a team sling or african or american carry) fire 2 rounds to the chest standing in 5 seconds. repeat twice ( for a total of 3 times)

Stage 5. 15 yards. 3.5 seconds (Kneeling)

From the guard position drop to kneeling and fire 2 rounds to the chest in 3.5 seconds. Repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)

Stage 6. 7 yards 1.5 seconds. (standing)

From the guard position fire two rounds to the chest in 1.5 seconds. Repeat twice. (for a total of three times)

Stage 7. 5 yards 1.5 seconds. (standing) This stage is the most difficult

From the guard postion fire two rounds to the chest and one round to the head in 1.5 seconds. Repeat three times (for a total of four times)

Stage 8. 3 yards. 1.0 seconds.

From the guard postion fire two rounds to the chest in 1 seconds. Repeat twice (for a total of 3 times)


Scoring is the same as the Patrol rifle except you need a score of 225 to pass (90%)

Try the Patrol one the SERT one was put their for you to try for fun to test your skills. The Patrol one is fairly easy and I have only had a few officers fail ever. There is a bolt action patrol rifle course (made for Fish and Wildlife Troopers) but I don't have it commited to memory. Its allows much more time for the bolt. There is also a sniper rifle course.
Pat
 
Maybe you should practice more with a semi to get the most out of it Cosmoline... The time you spend cycling the bolt you could be spending aiming and pulling the trigger.
Click to expand...

If you do it right, you're getting back on target while manipulating the bolt or lever. If you're doing it wrong or have the wrong type of rifle for the job, you have to break the weld each time.
 
AR15's are not popular because of a tacticool image. They just happen to be the best tool for the job
Click to expand...

Nothing against AR's, but why would LEO's need to have suppressive fire capability? And why the devil would LEO's in UP HERE want a .223 as their long gun of choice? An LEO in Palmer or Willow with an AR is the perfect example of a good idea taken WAY too far. They would be far better served with a firearm at least capable of taking a moose. But that's for another thread.

For these purposes, I see NO PROBLEM with an AR so long as it is not so laden with extras and heavy mags as to exceed the weight limit of the class.
 
Most of us here should know how to properly work a bolt action without dismounting the gun between rounds. That being said semi autos still cycle far faster than you can work a bolt. They recoil less because the action soaks up some of the recoil.

Personally I would not want to be stuck with a bolt gun in a close quarters gun fight. If I were stuck with a lever action or a pump I would feel fine. But not a bolt. Its way too slow.

QUOTE
Nothing against AR's, but why would LEO's need to have suppressive fire capability? And why the devil would LEO's in UP HERE want a .223 as their long gun of choice? An LEO in Palmer or Willow with an AR is the perfect example of a good idea taken WAY too far. They would be far better served with a firearm at least capable of taking a moose. But that's for another thread.
END QUOTE

You don't need AR's just for suppressive fire. In fact suppressive fire is almost never allowed in law enforcement situations except perhaps an active shooter who is a sniper. Also a 223 is an ideal choice for law enforcement everywhere. Its a great caliber for what we do. It is accurate easy to fire, has excelleng stopping power inside 300 yards with soft and hollow points, and has limited penetration inside bodies and homes.

The Moose topic is another situation and thats why you have a shotgun and slugs available. Pick the right tool for the job. If you picked a rifle that could kill moose and bears you would have a terrible close quarters fighing rifle due to over penetration and excessive recoil. The 223 semi auto carbine should be in every cruiser in this country and its on its way to being there. I am not saying we need to get rid of our shotguns they still serve some purposes like animal control, less lethal applications and breaching.

Pat
 
Thanks for posting that info on the course. It would be really interesting to run it with a CZ mini. On the face of it I see no real problems meeting those time requirements.

As far as the Evan Ramsey situation, the best solution to that would of course for the VP to confront the loon with something more substantial than a plastic baseball bat. A rifle of any type in the office would have settled his hash. As I recall from the depos, Edwards would certainly have had a good shot at him had be been armed. SWAT and other fast reaction teams have proven to be of limited utility in such situations because it's not possible for them to get to the scene in time to prevent the slaughter.
 
I think you will have difficulty with the 100 yard stage in 8 seconds. Most shooters of average ability with a AR finish between 6.5 and 7 seconds. So throw working the bolt in there you should be right at 8 seconds or over.


The 50 yards stage will be almost impossible with a bolt. Getting two shots off in 6 seconds is hard for someone with a semi auto 223. (remember you have to start from standing and go prone) Most shooters of average ability are finishing with in 5.5 seconds here.

The 25 yards stage should be easy with any rifle honestly and personally I feel they allowed too much time for this stage even with the reload.

The 15 yard stage from slung position is do able with a bolt if your skilled. in my opinon.

The 15 yard stage from kneeling in 3.5 seconds is is also do able.

The 7 yards stage with 2 shots in 2 seconds may test your skill with a bolt and I can forseee overtimes here.

The fail to stop at 5 yards may be do able in 3.5 seconds with a bolt but it wil not be easy.

The last stage will be very difficult 2 rounds in 1.5 seconds with a bolt even at point blank is tough.
Of couse feel free to prove me wrong. If your in the Kenai Peninsula area perhaps we could shoot together and the loser bys lunch. I would do bear but I don't drink.
Pat
 
The 223 is safe to use inside and it penetrates less in homes than most pistol rounds.

I've seen you say this often, Pat, but if .223 penetrates six layers of drywall, and pistol rounds (take your pick) penetrate eight layers of drywall, that's still at least three or four layers too many any way you slice it. Where does the idea come from that stray .223 is going to hit plaster and turn into creampuff? A frangible round for rifle or pistol would be preferable if overpenetration is *any* concern (and when is it not?). I'm sure frangible rifle rounds would be more effective on the intended target than pistol, however.

jmm
 
Active shooters are tough. The current training is bucking what we have taught cops for years. (which was stop secure the perimeter and get intel on the situation call swat ext) Now we teach to just go in and shoot the bastard basically. We sacrafice a lot of officer safety and thats as it should be. I could not live with myself if I sat idly by as some kids were being killed. In my current department we work alone most of the time and realiscally there will be no back up if we get an active shooter. Thats why having the right tool and keeping your skills up is so important. Active shooters are the biggest justification and reason for arming all line level patrol officers with rifles and carbines in my opinion.

I feel your thread may have been better titled if you would have said a Utility rifle concept. I see a utility rifle as a general jack of all trades civilian weapon that can do anything from home defense to putting meat on the table. For this role I kind of like the Marlin 1895 45 70 Guild gun with Ghost ring sights. Thats just my opinion. This is your thread did not mean to tell you what to do.
Pat
 
QUOTE
I've seen you say this often, Pat, but if .223 penetrates six layers of drywall, and pistol rounds (take your pick) penetrate eight layers of drywall, that's still at least three or four layers too many any way you slice it. Where does the idea come from that stray .223 is going to hit plaster and turn into creampuff? A frangible round for rifle or pistol would be preferable if overpenetration is *any* concern (and when is it not?). I'm sure frangible rifle rounds would be more effective on the intended target than pistol, however.
END QUOTE

Forgive me I should not have used the word safe to shoot inside. I should have qualified that as safer to shoot inside compared to pistol rounds and other rifles. You need to be aware of your target as well of whats it surroundings are. The 223 does give me one huge edge. I have to be less concerned with whats right behind my intended target. I have not personally seen a shooting where a 223 soft or hollow point exited a human body.
Pat
 
I like the patrol rifle idea. I hope it takes off with everyone choosing .30-30 marlins, so the value of mine will increase and I'll finally be telling the truth when I justify my purchases as investments.

The Marlin works for me as an everyday gun because it has sufficient power for good sized animals, and it points like a nice shotgun. I'm not nearly as fast with a lever as I am with a semi-auto for repeat shots, but I'd think for most situations a patrol rifle would encounter, a lightning fast first shot is what one needs.

Maybe the AR is god's gift to shooting (I certainly love mine), but I don't see why it's impossible that Cosmoline might get better use out of his bolt gun. I sure do out of my levergun, and I get more power and the ability to shoot a wide range of ammo...light loads for smaller animals, heavier loads for bigger animals, and off-the-shelf .30-30 for everything in between.
 
Cosmoline,

I agree a scope might be considered an optional accessory, and personally I would definately not want more than 3X; 2X being better IMO. But some may prefer a scope for precision's sake in many situations.

--------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Cosmo, if you had called it something else, we wouldn't be giving you so much crap. :p
 
We've got way to many guys on this board who've shot thicker skinned game with buck (pigs) and have gotten negligable penetration.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I was there when Al Thompson shot a pig, a Euro extract furry critter. It was pretty, nice tusks and everything, but only maybe 180 lbs. At that time, he used alternating slug and buck. We compared the two.

Al doesn't shoot any big game with buckshot any more. Like you, I believe he now says buck is okay inside a house, and that's about it.

Don't get me wrong; the 12 ga shotgun has its place. 2 out of 6 or 7 (getting old already) deer I took my last hunting season were taken with 12 ga shotgun, one at full run through thick brush. With reasonable shot placement, reduced recoil slug works great. :)

John
 
I have often wondered why CZ has not come out with a semi auto rifle/carbine. It just seems wrong for such a great company to be lacking in one HUGE area. As far as a patrol carbine, what about Kel Tecs new rifles. The SU-16C or CA seems like and ideal choice. Ide also mention the PLR...but its a "pistol". I will admidt I do not have one yet...but its next on the list.
 
Cosmo, if you had called it something else, we wouldn't be giving you so much crap
Click to expand...

Oh, I don't mind. Like I said I'm not wedded to the name. This thread has given me a lot of food for thought, but I'm not giving up on the theory. I'm convinced there's a class of firearms out there that haven't been identified or developed properly. They're like a breed of dog that has no official support or identity.
 
Nothing against AR's, but why would LEO's need to have suppressive fire capability?
Click to expand...
I don't think suppressive fire capability enters the equation at all. If it did, they wouldn't be issuing AR-15's, they'd be issuing M16's and M249's.

(I know some departments do issue M16's, but I suspect it's a cost issue since milsurp M16's are provided to departments at very low cost, as I understand it.)
 
This thread has given me a lot of food for thought, but I'm not giving up on the theory. I'm convinced there's a class of firearms out there that haven't been identified or developed properly. They're like a breed of dog that has no official support or identity.
Click to expand...

I think that class of firearms is "general purpose" and we all have that kind in one form or another. Some of us are better than others at applying whatever types we happen to have in certain areas.

I'd like to see a guy with a little lightweight boltgun run that course successfully. It'd prove the point that it can be done. Maybe not quite as fast as with an AR, but close and within the time frame with the boltgun in the right hands. I recall some Brits talking about how they trained to rapidly cycle and fire the No.4 Enfields accurately. I believe it's all in what you're used to.
 
I would truly enjoy seeing the results of that! Actually....

I would love seeing the results of a competition between an M14, FAL, AR-15, Enfield and Mauser.
 
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