The Patrol Rifle Concept

[LAK]

From a low ready at 7 yards fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds at a ISPC Brussels target. For more of a challenge on the SERT course fire 2 rounds in 1.5 seconds. Or for more range. Go from standing to prone and fire 2 rounds in 8 seconds from 100 yards. For SERT standard complete it in 6 seconds. That is not going to happen with a bolt gun.

2 rounds in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards would be very tough, but not impossible by any means. The rest is very feasible; the proper manipulation of a bolt-action should be measured in a fraction of a second. Or let me put it another way - someone with a stopwatch ttempting to "time" a proficient bolt operator opening and closing the bolt will have great difficulty indeed. It's that fast.

As Cosmoline points out, a bolt-action can be manipulated as fast or faster than most autoloaders can cycle, although this is no doubt significantly less so with small bores and pistol caliber carbines which might have faster cyclic rates. In the case of the leverguns though, this is pretty absolute.

I would doubt that most of those shooting in the described 7 yard drill are using anything other than small bore rifle or pistol caliber carbines. With the faster cycling time many are no doubt able to place an aimed snapshot, followed by a quick second based on a flash sight picture, and achieve an acceptable score.

Try that with a true medium bore autoloader shooting any load equivalent to military ball.

As an aside, two shot drills with a rifle at single targets seem alittle redundant to me, since the whole idea of using a rifle is it's decisiveness to begin with. Single round drills at multiple targets, widely spaced, and at varying distances makes more sense to me when applying a rifle.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[AStone]

LAK, Cosmo, et al,

Where would you put a pump (e.g., Rem 7615) with respect to the auto, bolt, & lever
in terms of firing speed/accurarcy?

I'm guessing it'd fall between auto & lever/bolt. But that's a guess. I have no data, and insufficient experience (only a Rem 870, a Marlin 336, & a CZ 452).

Nem

 

[Cosmoline]

Pumps are seriously underrated. I've seen one of the old .357 pumps in action and it's darned impressive. If kept to a moderate chambering, an experienced shooter can fire one as fast as a shotgun.

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
2 rounds in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards would be very tough, but not impossible by any means. The rest is very feasible; the proper manipulation of a bolt-action should be measured in a fraction of a second. Or let me put it another way - someone with a stopwatch ttempting to "time" a proficient bolt operator opening and closing the bolt will have great difficulty indeed. It's that fast.


As Cosmoline points out, a bolt-action can be manipulated as fast or faster than most autoloaders can cycle, although this is no doubt significantly less so with small bores and pistol caliber carbines which might have faster cyclic rates. In the case of the leverguns though, this is pretty absolute.

END QUOTE

Its pretty much impossible and no a bolt can not be worked faster than a semi auto can cycle. Unless you can cycle the bolt at between 700 and 900 rounds per minute.

QUOTE

I would doubt that most of those shooting in the described 7 yard drill are using anything other than small bore rifle or pistol caliber carbines. With the faster cycling time many are no doubt able to place an aimed snapshot, followed by a quick second based on a flash sight picture, and achieve an acceptable score.

Try that with a true medium bore autoloader shooting any load equivalent to military ball.

END QUOTE

Yes some people are using 308 carbines and its very do able with a semi auto in 308. The only drill that is not is the SERT course fail to stop at 5 yards in 1.5 seconds.

QUOTE
As an aside, two shot drills with a rifle at single targets seem alittle redundant to me, since the whole idea of using a rifle is it's decisiveness to begin with. Single round drills at multiple targets, widely spaced, and at varying distances makes more sense to me when applying a rifle.
END QUOTE

We train everyone to fire at least 2 rounds into a target as a minimum standard responce. Not even 308 ball puts people down in one round all the time. Each badguy gets seconds.
Pat

 

[Correia]

Sorry guys, go shoot some 3gun. Shoot some ViMBAR. (vintage military guns, plenty of Enfields and Mausers there) Go compete head to head with guys with autos, and bolt guns. There is no need to pontificate on this thread, when some of us actually do it all of the time are telling you that there is no comparison.

mustanger98, no comparison. Not even close. Take the fastest Enfield shooter there has ever been and put them up against a average 3gunner with an AR and the Enfielder will be hard pressed to beat him. Take a good/practiced 3gunner, and the Enfielder is going to get smoked.

Pumps are faster than bolts or levers, and you can do good work. I'm one of the fastest pump gunners I'm aware of. (2.11 Dozier with an 870) I know of some guys who are faster with a pump, but I haven't shot with them in person yet. I can go very fast with a pump. However I'm way faster with an auto. A proficient and practiced shooter with an auto can beat me head to head. A good shooter with an auto will beat me hands down.

LAK, once again, no need to pontificate. There are divisions in 3gun for .308 on up shooters. These are usually called HeMan division. (some variant of iron sighted .308 or larger, single stack .45 or larger, and pump 12 gauge) but can vary match to match. And yes, you can go extreamly fast with a medium bore battle rifle. I usually use a FAL variant. Once again, no comparison to a bolt whatsoever.

Multiple shots on one target with a rifle being silly? Hardly. Sometimes people are hard to stop. Fact of nature.

Even if you go with your single round on multiple widely spaced targets drill, (yep, do that in 3gun also) the auto is still probably going to win. And if you have enough multiple targets, they have higher capactiy, and faster reload times.

Some of you guys really need to go out and watch some well practiced shooters. There is no manipulation time. Only aquire, fire, repeat. Except for the good shooters, the aquire time is measured in fractions of a second. I don't care how smoking fast you are with a bolt, and I've seen some Vimbar guys that are absolutely amazing, but there is no comparison. You take that super fast guy with the 03a3 and put him on an M14 and he is going to be faster.

 

[ghost squire]

a bolt-action can be manipulated as fast or faster than most autoloaders can cycle, although this is no doubt significantly less so with small bores and pistol caliber carbines which might have faster cyclic rates.

Ummm.... I doubt that. Although if you can cycle a bolt 12 times a second (M14 firing rate) I would love to see that and your hand catch on fire.

And double taps are not unusual. If I'm not mistaken, many professional institutions have and do teach multiple shots on target for .308s. One for example would be the Rhodesians, specifically the Light Infantry and various special forces organizations. I'm not absolutely sure on that one, but 99 percent sure. It makes sense, it doubles your chances of scrambling his eggs, and more then doubles his chance of dying period. Although I don't think its necessary at range like it is with a 5.56.

 

[mustanger98]

mustanger98, no comparison. Not even close. Take the fastest Enfield shooter there has ever been and put them up against a average 3gunner with an AR and the Enfielder will be hard pressed to beat him. Take a good/practiced 3gunner, and the Enfielder is going to get smoked.

Correia, You said "average 3gunner". Now, considering how many 3gun competitors are police/military vs. how many are weekend gamers (and I'm curious to know real numbers on that), I wonder what an average 3gunner is. If this "average" 3gunner can't half shoot, a well trained Enfielder is gonna be the one doing the smoking.

Not all good shooters shoot AR's and not all AR'ers are good shots. And take any type shooter with any type rifle and you'll find some better than others. That's just the way it is.

 

[Quaamik]

I'm thinking that there is actually 2 "catagories" that this discussion addresses. The way I see the definitions, this is how I'd break it up:

The "Patrol Rifle":
This a police tool. Carried in the patrol car most of the time, and only deployed during special tactical situations. It might or might not be the best choice for SWAT teams and entry teams, both of which have needs that aren't always the same as an office on patrol.

The "Utility Rifle":
This is a rifle used by civilians for home defense or carried in thier vehicle for defense where legal. By civilans, I'm including off duty LEOs.

My choice for a patrol rifle:
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a cop and never have been one.
I'd choose either a AR-15 with a 16.5" barrel, a Mini 14, or Mini 30. If I could get the the AR in 6.8 SPC I would. The reason is that an officer who needs to grab a rifle needs ALL the advantages of a rifle. Range, penetration and stopping power, yet they might have to deal with multiple aggerssors or situations that require multiple shots (so a fast followup is a must). Both .223 & 7.62x39 have steel core ammo (in the case of a hollywood shootout scenario) and commercial HPs, soft points, and franagible rounds commonly available. 6.8 SPC has more energy than either, but ammo (especially specialty ammo) isn't as available.

The AK varients are a non starter for one reason: police need the pubic to percieve them as the good guys. The officer who responds to a scene and pulls out an AK doesn't automaticly have that. Imagine a "disturbed" individual, wearing mil surplus camo (or part of thier old mitary uniform), in a face off with a cop carrying an AK? The picture will make the front page of the local news. The following days picture will be of the veterens protesting in front of the burning police station.

For me, a "utility rifle" has many more options. For one, weight is not near as much an issue, as the ONLY time it is likely to be carried is when the SHTF. For another, price will almost always be an issue (some LEOs buy thier own rifles, ALL of us civies buy our own). It should be able to fire and reload quickly, but actual capacity isn't as critical. Caliber should be a rifle / carbine cartridge. Pistol calibers are nice, but if you NEED a rifle, even magnum pistol cartridges are a poor substitute. Note thatthe only times a civilian is likely to NEED a defensive rifle are when they are being attacked by large animals or preditory humans. Large animals need adequate penetration. Preditory humans may where body armor. 'Nuff said.

My choices (in order):
Semi Auto:
Mini 30
Mini 14
AR w/ 16.5" barrel
M1 Carbine
SOCOM 16 (in this position because of price only)
M1A Scout Squad (in this position because of price only)
Lever:
Browning BLR in .308 with a 1.5X scope (the irons suck on these)
Marlin 1895G "guide Gun" in .45-70
Browning BLR in .243 with a 1.5X scope (the irons suck on these)
Marlin 336 in .30-30
Bolt:
Ruger M77 Frontier in .308 with 1.5X scout scope
Ruger M77 Frontier in .243 with 1.5X scout scope
Enfield jungle carbine in .303
Pump:
Remington 7600 carbine in .30-06 (only caliber offered in 18.5" barrel)
Mossberg M590 12 gauge (ghost ring sights, 20 inch barrel)

The last is a shotgun, but if used with slugs would fill the role. It has the added advantage of being able to be used with buckshot as well.

 

[Correia]

mustanger98, agreed that not all shooters of one type of system are superior to anybody else. It comes down to the individual shooter.

Average 3gunner shoots about fifty times as much as the average internet poster. Seriously, you asked about LE/Mil vs regular. I would say the % is going to vary by club. Mine usually has about 50 shooters. I would say that five or six of them are LE, and five or six are Mil any given match. The top are spread out. Some of the best local rifle guys I know are a fireman, a plastics guy, and a hair dresser.

So how about this. Lets take twenty average shooters. Give 10 quality Enfields. Give 10 quality FALs. Give each of them 1,000 rounds of practice ammo. Then have a shoot off.

Sorry man. I like bolt guns too. They shine at some things. But don't try to make them something they aren't, and they will never be as fast.

 

[9055]

Its pretty much impossible and no a bolt can not be worked faster than a semi auto can cycle. Unless you can cycle the bolt at between 700 and 900 rounds per minute.


That may be true for Full Auto but not for semi auto as stated.

 

[mustanger98]

Average 3gunner shoots about fifty times as much as the average internet poster. Seriously, you asked about LE/Mil vs regular. I would say the % is going to vary by club. Mine usually has about 50 shooters. I would say that five or six of them are LE, and five or six are Mil any given match. The top are spread out. Some of the best local rifle guys I know are a fireman, a plastics guy, and a hair dresser.

Those numbers are a lot like I'd expect. How do the scores run? The automatic assumption is that most of them run AR's because "everybody does". Right?

So how about this. Lets take twenty average shooters. Give 10 quality Enfields. Give 10 quality FALs. Give each of them 1,000 rounds of practice ammo. Then have a shoot off.

Okay now, we're talking average shooters, but how many average 3gunners are also Enfielders? One caveat I've been operating with is the weapon is in the hands of someone who knows it well and that's probably better than average. If you have 10 average FALers and 10 average Enfielders, you may have a pretty even contest, but suppose all 20 are average ARFers which you just handed the FALs and Enfields to and that's probably going to scew the results based on bias against boltguns in general even given 1Krds of practice. A certain number of the semi-auto snobs will be overconfident and either fumble or miss or just not be fast enough. That's going to drag the ARFers down in the standings. Ever hear about the race between the tortoise and the hare? And if you have the squads exchange rifles and re-run, the ones who were just overconfident will, with Enfields in hand, not know what to do with them. The Enfielders may or may not have problems with the FALs depending on their experience with them.

Sorry man. I like bolt guns too. They shine at some things. But don't try to make them something they aren't, and they will never be as fast.

The point I and another poster or several keep trying to make- which is repeatedly lost on the semi-auto only people- is that it's not the rifle, but the operator. The weapon- assuming accurate aimed fire is the goal- is no faster, despite being semi-auto or not, than it's operator is at getting back on target and squeezing the trigger. Each rifle shines for a number of reasons, but not in the hands of someone lacking the expertise for the situation.

Yet you just said it:

agreed that not all shooters of one type of system are superior to anybody else. It comes down to the individual shooter

 

[Chris Rhines]

The automatic assumption is that most of them run AR's because "everybody does". Right?

Wrong. The reason that everyone runs an AR is because every other rifle platform on the market has been tested, tried, and found wanting. That is not to say that the AR is perfect, nor that something won't come along in the future and dethrone it (I have high hopes for the FN SCAR in this regard.) It simply means that the AR-15 platform is the best choice for rapidly engaging multiple targets at various ranges from ~0-300 yards.

The point I and another poster or several keep trying to make- which is repeatedly lost on the semi-auto only people- is that it's not the rifle, but the operator.

No. It is the rifle, AND the operator, AND the situation.

I run around 0.25-0.3sec splits at 25 yards with my ARs (A-zone hits.) I'm an average 3-gunner, at best. For comparason's sake, what are your split times like with a bolt gun at 25 yards? I doubt it's possible to press the trigger, manipulate the bolt, and press the trigger again in a quarter-second, to say nothing of hitting anything.

At longer range (100-300y), my split and transition times vary a lot more. Even so, it takes a lot longer to cycle the action on a bolt gun than it does to recover from the muzzle flip on a semi-auto.

There are some (rare) situations in which a bolt gun can keep up with a self-loader. The self-loader will never be any slower. Breaks of the game.

- Chris

 

[Correia]

How do the scores break down? What they do for a living has jack squat to do with how they place.

Sorry man, me and Chris do this kind of thing for fun. It isn't a fashion war that causes everybody to use an AR. We've got guys out there who would sell their Grandmother to the catfood factory if it would take .05 off of their split times. These guy would shoot black powder Lee Metfords if it made them win.

I'm an oddity and that I enjoy competing with off type guns. I've run FALs and for the last couple of years, a Vepr. I do rather well at the local level. But I still get smacked down pretty hard by a good shooter with an AR. And the sucky thing is, I'm still better with an AR, and I'm one of the better AK shooters I know of.

And yes, it is the Indian not the arrow. But arrow vs. Winchester and 99% of the time you're gonna lose.

I'm not a semi-auto only guy, but for what Cosmo outlined in this thread, it wins. I own lots of bolts, sell bolt guns, and enjoy bolt guns. But I know their limitations, and they ain't fast.

Snobs, fumble and miss? And bolt gunners never get confident, fumble and miss?

How about this. Take the best bolt gunner in the world. I'm talking the king of fricking Siam mack daddy of all bolt gunners. Have him and an A class IPSC rifle guy go head to head and shoot 355Sigfan's classifier. Compare.

 

[355sigfan]

9055
Semi auto guns are able to cycle just as fast as full auto guns assuming the operator can work the trigger fast enough. The cycle rate is the same in theory. Any questions
Pat

 

[mustanger98]

Correia, I believe you've taken some of what I've said out of context. I never said what they did for a living made a difference to their scores. You said I did. A certain amount of what I'm bringing up here is testing what is against what seems like should be.

Snobs, fumble and miss? And bolt gunners never get confident, fumble and miss?

First off, I use the word "snobs" loosely to describe people who're so stuck on tacticool they can't see anything else working. I didn't say "confident"; I said "over-confident" meaning to the point they feel they cannot fumble and miss only to find they've worked themselves into a mental trap. Or maybe they just slow down because of that same mental trap, hence the reference to the tortoise and the hare. I never said the other guy, the boltgunner in this case, couldn't.

I shall ignore Chris Rhines' post as it appears to have a lot more incurable angst.

This thread has ceased to be interesting.

 

[9055]

Pat,
Are you trying to say that 'realistically' an AR-15 can shoot 11 to 15 rounds a second in semi-auto? Please go to www.colt.com and show me where Colt says there's a cyclic rate for AR-15s. They don't list it but they do for M-16s and true M-4s in full auto. (I think you're just weasel wording again)

 

[Quaamik]

The cyclic rate listed by manufacurers is how fast the gun will fire when set on a burst or full auto setting. The cyclic speed of the action determines that.

The cyclic speed of an AR-15 should be very close to that of an M-16, there might be a slight difference due to the difference in bolt weights, sripngs and such between the semi only AR and full auto M-16. How fast it is humanly possible to work the trigger, without interupting the cycle by pulling a trigger when the action hasn't reset is another thing. I think the world record is around 350 rpm from one hand (aimed fire from a handgun).

I doubt anything over 240 rpm is possible while engaging multiple targets. For those who are math challenged, that would be 4 targets a second.

As to the AR being better than every other platform tried, bull pucky. That's been said about the 1911 in relation to pistol competitions and I can tell you as someone who has shot 1911s in competition it's BS. There is a guy or two I have shot bowling pins against who can wipe the floor with most of the shooters while firing DA revolvers. And one who can be competitive with a SA revolver. Just because one platform is easier for the average shooter, doesn't mean a good shooter can't shoot far better with a different one.

 

[355sigfan]

9055 as a Colt armorer I will tell you the AR15 can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger up to 700 to 900 rounds per min. Some people like Bob Mundan can fire a Single action revolver at 600 rounds per minute. Its not unbelieveable that someone with a fast trigger finger could make an AR15 reach its potential. Other than slight differences in bolt carrier weights the M16 and Ar15 will have identical cycle rates. Its not weisle wording its just the facts.

Quaamik I agree with a lot of what you said. But I must point out a da revolver and a 1911 are much closer in rates of fire than are semi auto rifles vs bolts. A DA revolver can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger. In some cases thats faster than most semi auto pistols. A good revolver shooter and a good semi auto shooter are very close. A good bolt gun shooter will never come close to the speed of a good semi auto shooter.

And just for argument the 1911 is the about the easier pistol to shoot fast and well and if just the guns are compared it stomps a da revolver in speed competitions. Hence the domination of the 1911 in these events. The AR15 is one of the better rifle designes and it shows by those who chose to use it.

Pat

 

[Cosmoline]

Bolts vs. Bolts

I suspect part of the problem is most shooters simply do not know how to operate a bolt action quickly, and haven't been exposed to the sort of bolt action rifles designed for rapid fire action. They've been trained from an early age to cycle them slowly and with care, often while using powerful optics. But many military bolt actions such as the Swede Mauser and SMLE can be cycled with extreme speed if you unlearn what you were taught in boy scouts and use your arm as a piston. I've gone over this in an earlier thread re. the proper way to cycle a Mosin-Nagant. Among other things, you stop trying to coddle the bolt. You SLAM it open and SLAM it home in one clean movement that begins and ends at the trigger. By the time you're back on target after the recoil, you should also be finished with the cycle. The little CZ carbine can also be rapid fired with accuracy. However, a cumbersome hunting rifle with a long action and a big scope isn't designed for this sort of use.

 

[Correia]

Cosmo, I agree that most shooters don't know how to work a bolt worth a damn, but I'm talking about good bolt shooters. I can smoke with an Enfield, but I can't come close to auto speeds. The best bolt gunners on earth can't either.

To give you an idea, do you know what a Bill drill is? Usually for pistols it is from the buzzer, 6 shots, in the A zone of one target, as fast as you can. It can be done at different ranges.

At one match I was in, we ran a 75 yard rifle Bill drill. I did it in 1.6 seconds with an M4gery with an EOtech. And dude, I didn't win that stage either. How fast can you humanly run a bolt through that?

 

[AStone]

You people made me spend two hours today reading about AR-15's.



God, all I wanted was a simple Browning A-Bolt in 7mm08
(which is still on my list for deer hunting).

Now, I'm looking at AR-15's.

Sheesh.

Maybe just a simple Rem 7615P would do. Not as fast as an AR (granted), and the magazine is smaller,
but less expensive for a struggling business owner & still faster than a bolt.

{Except it's chambered in Remington .223, not 5.56. After all that reading about AR's, now I know the difference, and am less enamoured of the 7615P as a result. Oh, frump.}

Nem

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm not talking about competition shooting. My point is simply that bolt actions are a lot faster than people give them credit for, and can be faster than some semis in aimed fire conditions. That doesn't mean they're going to beat a tricked out AR in competition speed firing. I'm not talking about competition speed drills. I'm talking about a class of rifles that includes both semis and other types of actions. For some of you, the ONLY class of rifle on the planet suitable for defense or police work is the AR-15. You firmly believe every other rifle is obsolete for anything but sniping, hunting or cowboy action. This is BUNK.

 

[355sigfan]

AR's are not the only suitable rifles, AK's will do, so will Sigs, HK's ext. Bolts, levers, pumps and single shots are obsolete. While they may work they are far from the best choice as a gunfighting weapon. Thats the raw unadulterated un pc fact of life. About the only bolt action semi comparision where the bolt would win would be comparing a Barret 50 to a bolt action 22 lr.
pat

 

[9055]

355 and Quaamik,

I can agree that an AR-15 can probably do close to 700-900 rpm accounting for trigger reset after each shot provided you rig it to a machine capable of pulling the trigger that fast, but let's be realistic. To throw out a number like that and say a semi auto is capable of shooting that fast is really extreme. As Pat said in post #115, its a theory.

 

[ugaarguy]

AR vs 7615 vs Others pricing

I've noticed several comments here on the AR variant vs 7615 pricing. Going to www.impactguns.com yielded an interesting result. A 16" DPMS A2 style carbine with 6 pos retractable stock is $680, a Remington 7615 is $680. If you prefer a fixed stock the A2 20" bull barrel from DPMS is a mere $700. A Bushmaster standard 20" A2 is still a respectable $800. The AR variants are clearly (to me) the better deal. Remington really needs to wake up on the 7615. For the bargain deal Kel-Tec's SU16 C or CA variants run $520, and the CA is even legal in the state of CA. The other Bargains are the SS/Synthetic Ruger Mini 14 & 30 at $590 & $600 respectively. I'd personally take the Kel-Tec SU16 CA for these reasons: piston operated, has iron sights & weaver rail, uses standard AR-15/M-16 Mags, lightweight, folds for transport, and it has the cleanest look of all the SU16 variants. Ohh yeah, and the SU16s are the most economical of the bunch. The time tested ruggedness of the Ruger Minis puts them in a VERY close second in my book.