If a Security Guard ask.

[chaim]

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Also, they do not have to actually see you take something, if it looks on the security camera like you might have taken something that is probable cause to search you.
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Wrong. Hope that store enjoys the lawsuit because of what a few guards seem to "think" happened. So if half the camera is pointing at you, you pick up an item out of sight, put it back, and then put your hand in your pocket in sight, according to your analogy that would be enough to search me

While I don't know the law where you are, here you are wrong. Security is allowed to make mistakes so long as they acted reasonably. They cannot detain because an associate or manager saw something, they have to have seen either the shoplifting or something that looked like it either in person or on camera. If they lost a law suit every time they were wrong most major department stores would be out of business. You would have to show that they were completely unreasonable in their suspicions or that there was some kind of pattern of discrimination in who they choose to search. When I was a manager at the department store there were quite a few mistakes and many of those people threatened the store with lawsuits (assuming just what you are assuming), a few actually hired lawyers, and not one lawsuit was ever settled or lost by my store. As for your example, I was not a security guard there, even as a manager they kept us in the dark about much of the specifics (we were their main targets as the majority of retail loss to theft is internal), but my guess is on its face there isn't enough info- it would depend on other factors as well that they are looking at (looking for cameras or employees before making your move, mannerisms, patterns of similar behavior, etc.).

Since when does the property of a business become more valuable than the property of a homeowner? Are businesses some sort of "super-citizens" with more rights than the rest of us?

Since long before I was born (and probably you too). Here in MD pretty much the only catagory that can fairly easily get a CCW license is a business owner who carries large sums of cash or who is in a class of business that is a likely target (i.e. gun dealers, jewelry stores). Supposedly with a documented, and continuing, death threat you can get a CCW but many such people are turned down. Personal defense isn't good enough, in fact the application directly states that "personal defense" is not a valid reason to approve a carry permit. Carrying large sums of cash (and being able to document it) for your business is almost "shall issue" easy. Another, essentially "shall issue" catagory is people employed as armed security- if you are employed in such a position and you can legally own a gun you will get a carry permit.

Is it fair, heck no! I'd prefer TX law where both businesses and "the little guy" are allowed to do what they need to in order to protect their property. Though I do not advocate shooting someone over a car, it would be nice if we could detain them, use force if needed, and even defend ourself with a gun if attacked, without being arrested "because we shouldn't have gone out there knowing they were stealing the car, you should leave that to the police".

Giant Electronics World (GEW) has a serious "inventory shrinkage" problem. So, they electronically tag their merchandise, and use uniformed, but unarmed security officers to watch the doors in an attempt to cut down on the amount of product walking away by itself.

They do this because hiring the guard reduces some amount of shoplifting, thus reducing the cost of lost goods which must be passed on to the consumer to keep the company in business.

Whitebear has a very good point. In most cases, what we are talking about isn't petty harrassment. Businesses are in business to make money and can't afford to antagonize their customers. Most decent retail security officers will be very sure they are right before stopping someone. They have, at minimum, a very good idea that something has been stolen. This is indeed a serious problem. As much as 25-50% (depending upon the industry) of the retail price of many goods is due to "shortage". You wouldn't believe how many millions of dollars per store, per quarter a major department store can lose to internal theft (employees shoplifting or taking from the till) and external theft (shoplifting), and no I can't give specific numbers from the store I used to work for (first, its been a few years so I don't remember the exact number, and two I can't get any more specific than "millions per store per quarter" due to the fact that it is considered a trade secret that they don't want getting to their competitors- and yes even as a former manager I am legally and ethically bound to protect any trade secrets I know).

Anyway, I understand the frustration of someone caught up in the security net (so to speak) who hasn't actually done something. I've been there. Long before I was a manager I was suspected of a $600 theft because I rung up someone who won a free shopping spree and my boss was slow to get the paperwork through the proper channels. Since they didn't have the paperwork all security saw was that I rung up $600 worth of stuff and marked it down to $0. Yes it was a PITA, I was taken to a small room with no windows. I had one guard in back of me, and one (the security manager) in front of me. They wouldn't tell me what they thought I did, only that they "know what you did. Tell us now and we won't have you arrested, you'll only lose your job. Don't tell us and you go to jail." Luckily for me I eventually figured out what probably looked suspicious to them (it was about a week prior), explained it, they checked on it and I was OK (though they never acknowleged that was what they suspected). I worked there another year and a half before leaving and came back a few years later as a manager. If I had been a suspected shoplifter it would have been easier (I had been up there almost 2 hours). They would have checked my bags and receipts and if everything was there I'd be sent on my way. Yes, it is a PITA, but the billions of dollars lost every year to theft in the retail industry makes it necessary- and sometimes some of us (the good guys) get erroniously suspected.

 

[morganm01]

Security Gaurds have no more legal authority than any other citizen. They can ask you whatever they want, but they CANNOT force you to jump through any hoops, unless they tell you to leave and you don't. In which case YOU are tresspassing. And then all they can do is escort you away. Think of it like this. If some little old lady comes up to you and ask's you to "show me whats in the bag!" you don't have to . SG's have the same authority as the LOL.

 

[Sentry]

Yeah well I don't live in a communist state, do I?

http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting1.htm

1. You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
2. You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
3. You must see the shoplifter conceal or carry away your merchandise
4. You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
5. You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
6. You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store

Everyone needs to read that site. Unless a guard sees you stuff a box of twinkies down your pants (at which point you know you're already guilty) and leave the store, and they confront you about suspected shoplifting instead, tell them to shove it and leave.

 

[Daniel T]

Sentry, that's nice and all, but if you make it look like you're stealing something, but don't actually take it, you will be stopped and detained. If you act like a jerk and get physical, your little prank will land you, and not the SO, in jail. Even in Texas.

Ask me how I know.

 

[chaim]

Sentry, that could be good CYA advice for the typical store owner or manager of a small storefront. However, keep in mind that different states have different laws and not all situations are the same. The parent company of the department store I worked for was one of the top 2 dept store companies in the country. They had some pretty knowlegable lawyers look over and approve their proceedures. I'm sorry, but some (or many) of those "rules" can be ignored by a well trained security staff (despite what people like to think a dept store usually has a good security staff- all our guys were retired cops, former MPs, or current criminal justice majors at the least), again with some variation in state laws. As just one example, I can't think of a single time the security staff intentionally allowed a shoplifter to leave the store before stopping them. If they saw them take something they gave them maybe 4 or 5 minutes in case they were simply absent minded. However, sometimes they grabbed them immediately if they saw them take something. If they only had strong suspicions (based on what they could see on the security camera) then perhaps they'd give them a little more time.

If you "tell them to shove it and leave" they will take you down with whatever level of force is needed based on your behavior (grabbing and cuffing you if no resistance, up to various degrees of physical force if you resist physically). I've seen dozens of shoplifters and suspected shoplifters who had to be tackled. If it got there, the police were always called (even if the suspected shoplifter didn't end up with stolen merchandise on their person) and in every such case (including when the guy didn't actually steal anything) when the police came the suspected shoplifter was the one to leave in cuffs (a verbal assult is all that is needed for an assult charge and the guards were working within their legal parameters and I do know some got resisting arrest charges for resisting the guards).

 

[whitebear]

OK, Sentry, I went to the site you reference, and actually read the materials. I think you should go back and do the same.

The six points you quote are presented as "universally accepted steps that a merchant should follow before detaining someone suspected of shoplifting" (emphasis mine).

To further quote from the same page:

You should also be well insulated from civil liability if you followed these six steps correctly. Remember, the steps recommended in this article exceed most state laws and are not always required for successfully prosecuting a shoplifter.

(Again, emphasis mine.)

You might also note that the author of the page you are quoting is NOT an attorney, and any advice he gives may or may not be valid in your state.

If you're gonna mess with the system, you should probably get your facts in a little better order.

 

[chaim]

Oh, there is another thing you need to be careful about if you want to test the system. Even if your state has laws that severely tie the hands of security guards, do you know who you are dealing with? Many guards are off-duty cops who are moonlighting. I know around here most of the guards you see at the shopping centers are retired or off-duty cops. The off-duty guys can, and will, arrest you if they deem it necessary. The fact that they are off duty and working in their security guard capacity doesn't temporarily cause them to cease to be cops. They can still arrest. In some areas the retired guys may be able to arrest you too. Even if they can't, keep in mind that they may still have friends on the force and a call from a retired cop working security may get very quick results.

I can vouch for the last sentence personally (it wasn't only told to me by security guards I knew). A few years back I was a teller working the drive through line in the evening (after the rest of the bank was closed). A customer wanted to take money out but his account was frozen by the state due to a criminal investigation (there were also notes on the account that he had threatened a manager of another branch). Anyway, when I told him I couldn't give him the money he wanted he started screaming and cussing at me, and threatened to kill me (he told me he knew we closed at 7pm and he would wait, he also informed me there was a gun in the pickup truck). He then proceeded to park his car in a spot facing my window. I called the shoping center security (my manager wouldn't allow me to call the police) and he called the police on his radio (apparently it tied in with the police). Well, a retired cop working security calling the police got a squad car in front of the bank within about 30-45 seconds! Unfortunately, the BG left when he saw the security guard enter the bank, and I don't know if he was ever found or arrested.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

Hi Smoke -- to answer your question. I tried to get into teaching English as a second langage but couldn't because everywhere I went, they asked if I could speak Spanish. My response -- no....but I speak excellent English... it wasn't good enough. Gee, didn't know so many Cambodians wanted to learn Spanish with some English. They also wanted me to teach English for math -- which is called Bilingual Education, not TESOL. Besides, I have dyscalculia so I couldn't do that in any language. In short, Bilingual Educators could go after my ESL jobs and get it but I couldn't go after their jobs. Also, no full-time ESL positions so no benefits or much pay.

I passed two of the three required tests for state certification in teaching but the final test included linguistics. My learning disability makes it hard to read for content or understand symbols -- hence, I can't read music or follow phonetic transcription. My hearing loss adds to the difficultly but it's not required by law to accomodate the handicapped on teacher's exams so after two expensive tries -- I gave up. Tried to get back into Federal work with the direct hire for the handicapped. It's a joke. After three years of trying to get back in, I gave up. I took the first job I was offered that might lead to armed work and possibly more money....no respect, but more money. Has yet to happen...

 

[tommytrauma]

Mastrogiacomo

I got caught myself when going to the Tango but with a knife I almost forgot to remove from my coat. Thank Christ I remembered. I think it's a 9/11 thing and it was the first time security asked to inspect my pocketbook before going in. I'm still a little shocked they did this to all the ladies and somewhat pissed at it because I don't think it was right.

After all, I've done nothing wrong so what would I care? They have a job -- it's not personal, just policy.

So, were you pissed about having your pocketbook searched, or did you not care? If you feel it wasn't right, does that cause you any moral difficulties whrn you do it to others?

I think a lot of folks here would love Boston. We have so much respect for individual rights, we practically gave the terrorists the keys to the city. Gee, if only someone detained them....they wouldn't have gotten by me. All I can I say on the subject, no matter what they thought of my position.

Am I reading this wrong, or are you claiming that the 9/11 terrorist attacks wouldn't have occured if you had been standing post at the airport?

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

Folks, you're reading too much into everything. Personally, if I was a guard at Logan, I wouldn't have just let anyone through the way their "security" did. I've given cleaning women more hassle getting into the building where they've worked than these men got. I don't really understand the point of arguing this point because it's along the lines of If I won the lottery type of responses. Suffice to say, I'd have taken my work seriously as I always try to do without targeting any one group, or falsely detaining people. I do what I'm told by my employers, nothing more or less and again, I'm very aware of my status and limitations. As for me, when I'm asked to open my bag, I may be pissed but unlike a lot of others, I comply.

 

[Navy joe]

Mastro, I give you the free pass of assuming you are not the typical security guard based on your status as an esteemed THR member; and that love of Berettas not withstanding you don't insert foot in mouth too often.

Why I in general despise security guards. All too often they are wannabes, couldn't be so they work security. The few straight guys or gals working it as a second job are easy to spot and usually decent to talk to. Their legal authority is limited in inverse proportion to what authority they think they have. I'm around uniforms all day and it is a stretch for me to equate any uniform with authority. I get my authority/respect based on who I am and expect others to do the same. In the military sense I may respect an utter petty tyrant based soley on their uniform(because it may affect my service rather badly) but I will file them away in the enemies for life bin. So, when I see a security guard in a $5 uniform it don't exactly do it for me. I'd give more respect to a plainclothes security that looked like they knew what was going on.

Quick example. Going to a Waffle house down here at about 2am on a Friday is a cultural treat. The IHOP uses off and on duty cops, the WH goes for private security. Armed. 5 of 'em. So you got 5 rent-a-cops standing in the little vestibule and they want to tell you which of the doors you can go in or out of. Doors 10ft apart and lead to the same inner door. Petty authority for the sake of authority. Marginally trained armed guys talking belligerent to patrons who use the wrong door and odds are I'm the only sober one that night. So there I sit looking at 5 armed guys who I, judging by their weapons and holster care, wouldn't let on a square range with me. I guess that "protection" makes the WH mgmt. feel good, darned expensive though. All it means to me is that I'm going to become one with the floor if someone does start shooting, no telling what will happen. I feel a lot less safe and don't get any real sense of authority.

I surely believe that property owners should be allowed to employ private security to protect what's theirs. It's a shame that most properties are too much of cheapskates to get them trained well. I most certainly will cheerfully comply with whatever security measures established to come in, if I don't that's trespassing. Please don't block the exit however. You can check my reciept on bags, I understand loss prevention. Block the only exit and I'm gonna start fearing for my safety. Hope you got "WELCOME" written down your jacket zipper flap because it's going to get trod on.

Now, the hard reality of preventing terrorist attacks. You may if you are very lucky and good. ID checks may prevent an attack, but not likely. Mostly they make the denizens of the bldg. feel safe. As a private citizen I too will surely shoot if I see a guy in a turban with a Krinkov acting badly. Usually not that simple though. Far too often though private security guards and military sentries alike faithfully discharge their duties of stopping terrorists by getting killed. If they are lucky like in the Kenya embassy bombing their actions cause a bomb to prematurely detonate and we later recognize the heroic action of doing their job and getting blown up for the trouble. Now if a determined terrorist wants to access you building you will again serve a valuable function known as the tripwire. The sound of you getting shot will alert anyone else. That's why any decent military or private security has the guy out front at the gate or desk and then a whole buncha guys you don't see. If the front line guard gets off a shot or notifies the cavalry that is known as bonus points.

The one comment I highly disagree with:

I'm there to protect the public. By the way, the apartment I guarded had this policy because of the terrorist threat to high rise apartments. Residents weren't happy with the check everyone rule but a few were very happy to see me. I got coffee and offers for food from some of the folks.

No, you are there so that after the apartment is a smoking crater the owner can say they had security. Hopefully your precense is a deterrent to amateur night terrorists and run of the mill thugs. This public don't want or need your protection. This public would also bring you coffee and a Christmas gift certificate, having stood an armed watch or three I know a crappy job when I see it. Now the whole thing about call the police that have no limits? Whoa, whole idea of this country is that everybody we choose to elevate to a public figure has limits. When the public figures decide they've had enough of limits we have ways of dealing with that and I don't mean lawsuits. So, while I will give a security or police officer all the respect thay demand through their bearing they better know their limits, because I do.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

I wish my uniform costs $5. My supervisor reminds me twice a week it costs $250. Too bad I don't get the respect that comes with the territory of trying to please everyone, and have a sense of balance between the employers and the public.

 

[tcdrennen]

I worked armed security here in CA full time and part time for about 6 years and still keep my permits up to date. I have a degree in Criminal Justice and have completed POST 832PC and School Peace Officer training.

In CA, to be a licensed Security Guard working for a licensed Private Patrol Operator (i.e. a contract security company) you need to pass the Powers of Arrest course and be licensed, which includes a fingerprint background check. You must be in uniform, with a shoulder patch clearly marked Private security and having the PPO's name on it. To work armed requires an additional Open Carry permit which must be renewed every two years, with firarms qualification shoots certified every 6 months; you have the specific caliber(s) you may carry on the card, and the PPO can restrict you further, or the city you work in. L.A. used to require any private patrol officer to get and wear a city-issued badge after a further background check and limited weapons to .38/.357 revlovers with 125 gr. JHP .38 +P ammo. Another company I worked for limited ammo to .38 Spl 158 gr lead SWC. At one time working two jobs I had to change all my ammo between shifts - annoying! :banghead:

(As an aside, a business can hire anyone and give them security or loss prevention authority as agents for the business; such employees do NOT have to be licensed or checked, but the employer assumes a massive liability - a PPO contractor has to have a $1 million bond in place and follow a lot of regulations including ensuring guard permits are up to date, etc.)

anyway: in working shopping center security, I had all the powers of arrest any private citizen has. In CA, the ONLY DIFFERENCE between a private person and a LEO in this regard are essentially that a Private Party must be 'in the presence' of a misdemeanor to make a lawful arrest of the violator, and has no authority to arrest on a warrant. This meant that as long as I or my partner (we worked in pairs at these centers) SAW the shoplifting and we followed the person out of the store (important) we could then detain and searrch them for the contraband. HERE'S THE IMPORTANT THING - once you have told a person they are being detained for suspected crime (shoplifting, vandalism, trespassing, whatever) YOU MAY PERFORM A PAT DOWN , open and inspect any bags or containers IN THE PERSONS IMMEDIATE CONTROL - and require the person to empty his pockets-YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR ANY WEAPONS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY. When the contraband is found in the course of that search, well, that's just coincidence. Again for your own safety, you can secure the person as needed - including handcuffs.

Then you call the cops - when they come, you give them the report on the incident and sign the Private Person arrest form, and they then take custody of the person. In CA, a Peace Officer MUST take custody of an arrestee from a private person arrest. They can LATER let them go on citation, or take them to jail, but they MUST take custody.

The last thing I would do was to inform the arrestee that they were barred from the premises in the future and would be arrested and charged with trespassing if they came back. I did have to do that once.

Point is: I made probably 2 dozens arrests in my time in those posts, and every one was a good arrest which led to conviction; only once did I even have to be available to testify, and that guy pled out before trial (had a sharpened screwdriver and crack vials in his backpack so faced worse than the trespassing we arrested him for!) The critical thing is to be aware of exactly what the law requires and permits; to be able to ARTCULATE THE INCIDENT properly and clearly; and be prepared to testify if required. Twice I/we had to chase down and tackle/struggle with a violator, and they had the additional charges of resisting lawful arrest and assault and battery added to the shoplifting.

In other words, the same standards a LEO has to meet. Actually, higher standards, because the LEO has immunities the Private Person (even when acting lawfully) doesn't, so I had to be D@#% sure I knew exactly what I was doing and could report it clearly and correctly.

Your state and milage may differ, but I never had anything but respect from my employers, clients and the LEOs - I did things correctly and according to law. And the customers and business owners ALL appreciated what we did. We kept the hookers and drug dealers off the property, escorted the drunks away and sent them home (or arrested them if they refused) and gave our stores a reputation as places which were nice and safe to shop in - but BAD places to act up or shoplift.

 

[Brian Dale]

Thanks, tcdrennen; good info. One minor nitpick:

YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR ANY WEAPONS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY. When the contraband is found in the course of that search, well, that's just coincidence.

If you have the legal authority to detain or arrest and perform a search, then it doesn't matter if you're searching for giraffes. State law specifies what can be done, and that's that.

 

[rock jock]

Sentry,

Please keep posting. Your arguments now lack any credibility but are still quite amusing.

 

[tcdrennen]

Happy Bob:

If you have the legal authority to detain or arrest and perform a search, then it doesn't matter if you're searching for giraffes. State law specifies what can be done, and that's that.

Actually, it's because of Supreme Court rulings on searches incident to arrest. If you are "detaining' a person on reasonable grounds, before actually 'arresting' them, you may search the person or belongings ONLY to ensure officer safety. Applies to police, too - kinda of an 'exigent circumstance' loophole around the court-interpreted 4th Amendment search and seizure prohibitions, but the law these days is whatever the Supes say it is, so ya go with the flow

Then of course you support and promote pro Constitution measures and candidates in hopes of getting common sense back into the law. :banghead:

 

[Brian Dale]

tc, thanks for the correction.

 

[TamThompson]

I certainly agree with protecting one's 4th amendment rights and not allowing oneself to be bullied.

However, as a point of practicality, I would urge folks to give security guards the same courtesy and respect you'd accord any fellow citizen doing their job. For one thing, it's the right thing to do (what goes around comes around), and for another thing, you do not know if that security guard is an off-duty cop OR if their friends/siblings/parents are cops. You could end up surrounded by them.

Another point, which may have been mentioned, is that once you're on private property, you're a guest. If you don't play by the house rules, you can be asked to leave (escorted out by cops.) Don't like the house policy? Quit going there, and write them a letter, or call, and tell 'em why. (I do this a LOT.)

 

[Sentry]

Demise - Did I say I was "playing pranks"? I'm not 12. I'm going about my daily life, and will not let some 5 dollar an hour overzealous wannabe change that.

Chaim - If they try and "take me down" when I have not commited a crime, then I'm going to consider them a threat and they will be on the receiving end of a very nasty situation. Trying to tackle me will result in the same force as it would on the street. I've had my own training, and no one is putting me on the ground. Ever seen 2 cops fight? There wouldn't be an easy win, and I know not a single officer who does Wal*Mart security around here, anyways. It's a bunch of wannabe's. 16 an hour doesn't necessitate working at JC Penny's for a second job. Then again, I'm not in a state where 5 hours of training makes you any better than an average citizen, and doesn't equate you to law enforcement like some.

whitebear - And those steps are developed from lawsuits where the retailer has lost. I don't "mess with the system" but I don't let some stores system mess with me, either.

rock jock - You aren't even a part of this conversation, your opinion isn't concerning.

 

[semf]

As cops, they have no limits.

Mastrogiacomo----Please tell me that was a typo or something


Carlos -----I believe you are a Rooster (1957 1.31 - 1958 2.17


Demize ----How do you know ? ( just curious)


Mastrogiacomo----- I was offered a job as an ESOL teacher with no bilingual requirements. But it was in Vietnam, if your interested.( Food sucks, but the weather is bad)

 

[SeaG]

This has been an interesting discussion so far. I get the feeling the reason that some people become so agressive about the guard not touching them is because they are the type of person who would never steal anything. I learned that lesson when I was five. My dads was then an active duty state trooper and always told us kids that the police wouldn't have to be called because he would run us in himself =P It kept all three of us on the straight and narrow.

My pet peev are the electronic tags that are so common place now. I frequent Best Buy and have for several years now. I went in one day during an off time when there were very few customers in the store. I found the electronics that I wanted and purchased them at the only register that was open. I spent in the $100-$150 range and was aprox 10 feet from the security guy at the door and he was facing the direction of the register so I know he was aware of me. Ofcorse the gal at the register didn't do her job and I beeped as I walked out the door. Predictably the security guy says he needs to see in my bag. I was already in a bad mood that day and the fact that I saw the guy watch me check out didn't help my mood. I looked him in the eye and said something along the line of " This really pisses me off" after which he didnt even look in the bag and said "Sorry sir, have a nice day."

I've worked security for both the military and private sector. I've seen my share of good security people and those "gung ho" types . If one of those types decided to tackle you as you walked out to restrain you because of what they thought they saw, and later found out they were mistaken, would they be leaving themselves open for assualt charges? I get the feeling if I as a citizen ,thought I saw someone do something ,tackled them and waited for the police then there was no proof of a crime... I'd be the one going to jail.

 

[Bostonterrier97]

My understanding is a security guard can search your belongings ONLY if you voluntarily submit to a search. The ONLY time that a security guard can conduct an involuntary search is when they have conducted a citizen's arrest and then and only then..can they conduct a search. However the search is only to be made on the arrestee's body and only for a weapon.

This means a "pat down".

Otherwise it is an illegal search.

On the other hand..on private property (such as a mall)..failure to submit to a search can result in you being asked to leave the property, and if you refuse you can then be arrested for trespassing.

 

[fearlessrogue]

Have any of you actually been detained? It is really insulting.

When I was 17 and looking like a hoodlum I went to the mall with my mom. While I was there I noticed a life size cardboard standee (sp?) of Rocky outside of a Suncoast. I went inside and asked if I could buy it, to which they replied not, but that they would take my number and get back to me if it became available. 15 minutes later the standee became available which I picked up and carried with through the mall.

After several minutes I noticed that I had picked up a tail, which became 3 s/g that would detained me. Mind you at the time I was with my mother and 5 year old niece. After 10 minutes they let me go, and to this day I regret not having cried bloddy murder and then demanding proof of detention in writing/ coaxing one of the ninjas into assaulting me, though what they did was likely enough for a lawsuit.

The lesson I learned is that malls suck, but the average mall ninja sucks more. I avoid both now like the plague.

 

[SeaG]

I have a CCW and the whole patting down for a weapon thing scares me to death. If this person pats me down feels my gun and attempts to disarm me, well thats not going to happen unless its a police officer. That loaded weapon is my responsiblity. I will not surrender a loaded weapon to someone who may not have the ability to safely handle it. I just can't see anything but major panic happening at the first sighting of a weapon.

 

[Old Fuff]

SeaG:

In most states that have concealed weapons licenses you can carry inside a store or whatever unless it is clearly posted otherwise. If it is you shouldn't enter, but instead go back to your car and either take off the weapon and then return - or better yet, simply leave.

If for some reason you face a "pat-down" you should tell the security guard or police officer that you are carrying a handgun and that you have a valid license to do so. Then state that you will only submit to a search by a sworn police officer and no one else. If you are in a situation that would justify a search then you have a right to demand that the search be made by an officer, especially if you're carrying a gun. If you get any flack demand to speak to the store manager. I always make a point of carefully looking for "no guns" signs before I enter a building, and if there is one I don't go in. One's money should be spent in establishments where they, and their arms are welcome.