If "Police" break down your door and come in with guns drawn. Would you shoot them?

[tetchaje1]

I, of course, agree with my brethren regarding the lack of need for ninja masks, black suits, black helicopters, and no-knock raids.

I also agree with what has been said about no-knocks only being used in hostage situations.

You SHOULD ALWAYS expect the good-guy's face to be uncovered. That is how the public should expect to see their public servants. It is a matter of trust. It is a matter of trusting said government employee to respect my rights as I will respect his/hers.

A kind knock on my door, a calm tone of voice, display the search warrant, and you are free to enter.

Come barging into my house in the middle of the night shouting and screaming and I must assume that my family's safety is in danger as I am not a criminal, and I have no reason for police to be there.

I am leaning more and more to replacing my shotgun in the closet with my AR for reasons of home invasions and perps wearing body armor.

Scary thought though...

 

[Hardtarget]

This very thing happend in Mid.Tenn. just last year. Wrong , address, no-knock entry. I'm not sure of the home owners age. He was older than me, so close to 60 yrs. He fired several shots from his shotgun, but when the smoke clearedhe was dead. It was a drug raid for the neighborhood dealer but with the wrong address.For sure...no winners.My thinking is close to what I've been reading here.I don't drink, have anything to do with drugs, stolen property, child porn, kidnapping...or anything that wpuld make my house a likely target. I'm like white cake on a paper plate...not very interesting...but that doesn't block a MISTAKE! So if my door is kicked in its likely to get ugly fast...and with my luck the ugly will be all over me!
Mark.
the lose/lose of "Murphey's Law"

 

[JShirley]

What pax said.

For now, I don't think I have to worry, as I live in the barracks!

 

[capnrik]

STAND BY TO REPEL BOARDERS

My House. My Boat. If you're nice, I will be too.

If you're not nice, I will be too.

Care less who you are.

 

[Baba Louie]

HardTarget,

At least he died a free man defending that which he loved. Not that that does him or his family any good.

Adios

 

[G-Raptor]

FBI
ATF
DEA
STATE POLICE
COUNTY SHERIFF
MUNICIPAL COPS
MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TASK FORCE


All of these agencies have their own black ninja assault teams. They're everywhere. At times they have overlapping investigations. They don't always talk to each other. The shear number of them ensures that there will be mistakes; lying informers, bad information, poor intelligence, typographical errors. Result, they're going to kick in the wrong door sometimes. Not to mention the "roving bounty hunters" looking for a bail jumper.

It's a scary thought for someone attuned to defending themselves. You can't tell the good guys from the bad guys. Just because someone yells "Police" don't make it so.

There's just too many people kicking in doors these days.

 

[Gordon]

The local Sherrifs know I patrol my property armed with NVD's, if an alphabet spec ops team comes I'm reasonably sure they clear it with local Sherrif who knows me. I'd be wakened by dogs unless they took them out with real quiet suppressors,(I dont think so) and retreat to "strong room" across bedroom. Of course you could catch me asleep and weave your way thru the Cholla cactus around the hot tub , I like to sleep with deck door open. But then motion sensors at corners of house would turn on spot lights, central alarm system on at night too. If ninja come(and they did to near neighbor 10 years ago) they will be bad guys for sure and will be real lucky or sneaky. Don't try to cut my power the old Y2K generator will start up. My house is on rise with clear field of fire for 200 yds (not as good as Art Eastmans) and 1/4 mile of drive way with gate thru pasture with horses and goats, is paved with crunchy gravel , I should have chineese geese too but they are hard to keep. Perimeter is 6 foot high no climb welded wire fencing with "hot shot wire " on inside and signs. I'll leave it all in a blink if they start gun raiding. Then motion detectors can open propane line and 100lb 0xygen bottle 1 minute before Piezo electric igniter. Flame should shiloette "invader real good from 300 yds or so.

 

[labgrade]

Didn't even read a single reply, but if They come, as a proper Dynamic Entry Team should - for The (real) Bad Guys - at the right time & they've done their proper surveilance, you won't have a chance to do anything other than die if you put up any resistance.

Door/s ripped off at 3AM (or when you're most asleep), flashbang/s at odd angles, you're totally out of it/they're most assuredly not.

If you're lucky against a "good team," you'll be face down long before you have a chance to be shot.

Unlucky = you have time to grab yer shooter & be buzz-cut.

.... IF, it's cops.

What's to woory? You get to choose.

 

[Deadhand]

I have been involved in a number of "raids". I can tell you that the detectives or officers involved have done an enormous amount of background investigation regarding the case. They will know every little detail there is to know. Are there guns in the house? Who are the players? Routine movements. What rooms are occupied, and when. Believe me, those officers don't want to risk their lives, their careers, or the case they've been working months on by screwing up on the homework. We know that any time we enter a home in an aggressive manner that the chances of getting hurt or killed are high. Careful recon and preparation all go into the search warrant, and if there is anything less, the judge will not sign and approve the warrant. In my department, the ninja mask- like wear is worn by SWAT, and by the time they are called to a scene, the time for the 'excrement to strike the occilator' is long past. Sure, there have been mistakes- we're human, too. But if you're REALLY a totally law-abiding citizen, and armed suspects storm your home, it is probably not the cops!

 

[labgrade]

Ahem.

& me too, Dh, but ...

"it is probably not the cops!"

Well then. Then, you should absolutely defend your home.

"Sure, there have been mistakes- we're human, too."

Well then. You obviously shouldn't.

Kinda the whole crux of the question, no?

My point, maybe sloppily put, was that if it's "cops" who know their business, you'll die if you attempt a(ny) defense.

If it's real bad guys & you don't = you're just screwed.

Ya takes yer chances.

Not to pick 'n choose at all, but I could cite a few cases where the "good guys" smoked a few innocents (& frankly, a few of their own) when doing unrequited dynamtic entries willy-nilly based on a "legal search warrant (issued by A Judge - as if )," "careful recon," yada, etc.

Even read about a few (enough) cases where there were out-of-court settlements where The Cops paid off for (let's not be too blunt) - illegitimately/illegally/shooting to death - persons who had no business being shot.

So, quick question, Deadhand. Your house is violated by a dynamic entry. You have 2 seconds (if that) to respond.

Is it the bad guys, or the good guys - just one of those "we're human, too" mistakes?

What do YOU do?

 

[spin180]

Charges Dropped Against Man Who Shot Police Officers

Charges Dropped Against Man Who Shot Police Officers
No Officer Was Seriously Injured

POSTED: 11:58 a.m. EST January 7, 2003
UPDATED: 5:11 p.m. EST January 7, 2003

BALTIMORE -- Prosecutors are dropping charges against a man who shot four police officers in Baltimore during a drug raid.

Baltimore City State's Attorney Patricia Jessamy says that's because police didn't announce their police presence before the man's door was knocked down with a battering ram in November.

Jessamy says investigators have concluded that Lewis Cauthorne, 26, was acting in self-defense when he fired six shots from a .45-caliber handgun when officers entered his home.


"Statements taken from the officers, as well as evidence inside the house, led me to conclude Lewis Cauthorne was acting in self defense," Jessamy said.

An investigation found that members of the raid team were not wearing police uniforms or raid jackets that would have identified them as police officers.

In her announcement, Jessamy cited a 1995 U.S. Supreme Court case mandating that police must knock and announce their presence before making a forced entry on a search warrant.

But Baltimore City Acting Police Commissioner John McEntee said he strongly feels the case should have gone to a grand jury.

"Fortunately, none of those officers have sustained a life-threatening injury. Unfortunately, the state's attorney has made the decision not to pursue criminal charges in this matter," McEntee said.

He firmly believes his officers did knock and identify themselves before knocking down the door.

"I think that's in dispute. There are several officers who clearly have made statements contradictory to that and there are other officers who simply did not hear something, but do not dispute the statements made by other officers," McEntee said.

Jessamy stressed her decision to dismiss the Cauthorne case is intended to protect both the public and police.

"This is not singular message that we want people to start shooting at police officers if they [are] opposite. What we're saying to the citizens of Baltimore City is that we want you to be safe and secure in your homes. What we are saying to police officers is that we appreciate your efforts and we want to make sure that you to be safe also," Jessamy said.

Jessamy said her decision was based on a Supreme Court ruling that requires officers with a warrant to properly announce themselves and give people an opportunity to open the door -- particularly if officers have a what's called a no-knock warrant, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

Police were required to knock and announce their presence while they served a warrant to search Cauthorne's house for drugs. Several of the officers, involved, Jessamy says, told investigators that procedure wasn't followed.

McEntee said the police department has made improvements to raid situations following the Cauthorne case.

"There were some changes that were made the very next day [including] search warrants, raid jackets being warn [and] better identification of officers," McEntee said.

But the nylon jackets that have "police" in bold lettering were not worn by the police officers involved in this case, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

The procedure is spelled out in a 1995 Supreme Court decision that involved a drug raid in Arkansas. Prosecutors relied on that decision in the Cauthorne case, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

"Our reading of the facts here, the people inside weren't given an opportunity to open the door and allow the officers to come in," Jessamy said.

Jessamy says her decision was based solely on the law. Prosecutors say they are seeking Cauthorne's release.

Prosecutors say only traces of marijuana and cocaine were found in the house -- as well as a larger amount of a powder that's used as a cutting agent.

Stay with TheWBALChannel.com and 11 News for the latest news updates.

Previous Stories:
January 3, 2003: I-Team: Accused Cop-Shooter's Case In Jeopardy
November 22, 2002: Police, Family Dispute Raid Actions
November 20, 2002: Confusion Could Be Cause For Shooting
November 20, 2002: Community Reacts To Shooting
November 20, 2002: Mayor Calls Officers Heroes
November 20, 2002: Four Baltimore City Police Officers Shot
Copyright 2003 by TheWBALChannel.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


It seems this guy isn't exactly the most upstanding citizen around and he still got off, in Maryland to boot!

 

[denfoote]

Yeah!! I gotta assume that the secret orders have gone out and gungrabbers.gov have begun their long awaited house to house search for "contraband"!! Besides, I figure I'm gunna die anyway because the ATF, NSA, CIA, FBI all know I have guns from having agents lurking on these boards!! We have all admitted to owning guns. Heck, some of us have even posted what guns we have!!! If whatever.gov does a dynamic entery into my house, I figure it's because the Shrub or whom ever is in charge at the time has signed a secret executive order banning guns, and I'm toast anyway!!!

 

[TallPine]

Deadhand:

I just have to ask: why you have been involved in "a number of raids" ???

What do these raids accomplish that could not be accomplished by other means?

If you have done so much homework and preparation, why can't you arrest suspects when they are out of the building? Does it just take too much time to wait for somebody to go out and get a pizza or cigarettes?

If you there is enough evidence in the house to break down the door, there should be more evidence than can possibly be flushed down a toliet, etc. Or are you raiding houses looking for a teen with a half ounce of pot hidden under his pillow?

Sir, none of these questions are intended to attack you personally - I'm sure you are a fine officer - but why are all these raids taking place to begin with? Are they really worth it?

Certainly - IMO - it's not worth it just to enforce drug laws.

 

[Tamara]

mrat,

I have seen a lot of threads on gun boards about "what to do if your house is no knocked by the police". I don't lie in bed awake at night worrying about this. I am starting to think that maybe I have a problem because it seems a high number of people think this is a real danger and I don't.

Are you saying that the police will never kick down the wrong door again? That there will never be another Ralph Garrison, another Mario Paz, another Willie Heard or Ismael Mena? Did you know that in the 146 no-knocks carried out by the Denver PD in 1999, no felony arrests occured in two-thirds of them and only two suspects were sent to prison. Out of 146 raids. It does happen, and it could happen to someone here.

Anyhow, probabilities aside...

Folks here are alla time gaming out improbable scenarios, it goes along with the preparedness mindset that causes someone to carry a CCW in the first place. I didn't see anybody indicating that they lie awake at night thinking about it, but it fits well in between "What if you're caught up in a convenience store robbery?" and "What if a bunch of gangbangers start shooting up the party you're at?"

...whoops, wait, that last one actually happened to one of our members last week; scratch that one.

 

[p35]

The third jury to hear Brian Eggleston's murder case agreed Monday with prosecutors: The Tacoma man executed Pierce County sheriff's deputy John Bananola in a deadly gun battle seven years ago.

After listening to eight weeks of testimony, the 12 men and women took about eight hours Friday and Monday to convict the 32-year-old Eggleston of second-degree murder and first-degree assault.


Bananola, 36, died Oct. 16, 1995, during a drug raid in which he and five other deputies entered Eggleston's house at 902 E. 52nd St. to serve a search warrant.


As Superior Court Judge Stephanie Arend read the verdict, a pale Eggleston remained impassive while his relatives and friends sobbed in the courtroom gallery.


Afterward, jurors, some looking tired and tearful, refused to talk to attorneys, detectives or reporters about what convinced them Eggleston was guilty.


Deputy prosecutor Jim Schacht said some had nodded when he explained to them after the verdict that the three final shots Eggleston fired into Bananola's head convinced him that Eggleston was a murderer rather than a man acting in self-defense, as he had contended.


At least one of those shots was fired from 18 to 24 inches away, and the first of the shots would have immediately incapacitated Bananola, Schacht said.


"You really have to dig deep to say, when you're doing that, you fear for your life," Schacht said.


Defense attorney Monte Hester disagreed.


"Justice has not yet been done," he said. "I feel terrible for Brian and his family that it didn't work out the way it should under the law. But we have to deal with it."


Eggleston's family vowed to keep fighting through appeals.


"We'll do it again, Brian," Eggleston's mother, Linda, called to him as corrections officers led him away in handcuffs.


Hester said he hasn't assessed what went wrong for Eggleston in the trial, and that he'll concentrate on that after the Jan. 3 sentencing.


Eggleston faces the potential of decades in prison. In 1998, his sentence for the same convictions, coupled with four related drug convictions, added up to 49 years - a sentence at the top of the standard range.


A jury in 1997 convicted Eggleston of drug charges and first-degree assault, but couldn't decide on a murder charge. A second jury in 1998 convicted Eggleston of second-degree murder. But an appeals court overturned the murder and assault convictions, saying both trials were unfair.


Prosecutors argued that Eggleston, crouching naked in his bedroom doorway, shot Bananola and then chased him down, pumping three shots into the deputy's head as he lay helpless on the floor.


In all, Eggleston shot Bananola nine times. He then shot at deputy Warren Dogeagle, prompting the assault charge.


Eggleston, who was shot five times in the raid, testified that he awoke to chaos, was shot as soon as he walked out of his bedroom and returned fire only because he thought the deputies were armed intruders.


Deputies had gone to the Eggleston house that day to find out whether Brent Eggleston, a sheriff's deputy, was involved in Brian's drug trade. He wasn't and is still a deputy.


Brent Eggleston's wife, Dana Eggleston, said a shoddy investigation of her husband had led to the drug raid and had ruined many lives.


In the courthouse lobby, Linda Eggleston yelled tearfully about a cover-up to protect other deputies who took part in the raid.


"His own men killed him," she said, surrounded by family and Brian Eggleston's friends. "(Deputy John) Reding shot him. And all we are is a poor family with no money and no power."


During the trial, Eggleston lawyers Hester and Zenon Olbertz didn't argue the possibility that a deputy had killed Bananola. And deputy prosecutor Schacht strongly disputed her accusation.


"There's no truth to it at all," he said. "All John Reding's bullets were accounted for."


Reached by phone, Reding said he was stunned someone was accusing him of the killing.


"Oh, my gosh," Reding said. "That's not right. ... I can understand it's a tough time for them. Who knows what lengths that they'd go to to say it wasn't him? But it's not right for them to say that."


Reding and other deputies involved in the raid said they were glad to hear the jury reached what they called the only just verdict.


"I listened to closing arguments, and I've been familiar with the case from the get-go," said detective Sgt. Ben Benson, who led the 1995 raid. "There was only one verdict they could come back with. ... Brian Eggleston is being sent back where he needs to go."


It was a satisfying ending but not happy day for those who loved Bananola.


"It's almost Christmas," said Bananola's daughter, Brooke, who came to court with her fiancé and her 4-year-old daughter, Malia. "It's still sad. It doesn't bring him back."


She said she was ready for whatever was next: Eggleston's sentencing, his appeal, even another trial.


"I have to be ready," she said. "My dad can't be."

They are now seriously considering another trial due to juror misconduct.

 

[fix]

1) Assess situation. I.E. I can't put up much of a fight standing naked in the shower.

2) Make decision. I.E. Fight, flight, or submit.

3) Take action. I.E. Haul ***, lay down, or fight.

4) If I'm gonna fight...seek cover, dial 911 on cell phone with hands free device, scream clearly and loudly for ID/Warrant, wait for operator to confirm police presence or shooting to start, return fire if necessary.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Eggleston, who was shot five times in the raid, testified that he awoke to chaos, was shot as soon as he walked out of his bedroom and returned fire only because he thought the deputies were armed intruders.

...

Prosecutors argued that Eggleston, crouching naked in his bedroom doorway, shot Bananola and then chased him down, pumping three shots into the deputy's head as he lay helpless on the floor.

He should of went after the other "intruders" instead of focusing so long on the one that was no longer a deadly threat. Because of that, based on only what it said in that article, I'm inclined to agree with the jury's decision.

 

[twoblink]

For the amount of $$ spent by SWAT on training, the first thing you hear is nothing if they are "the real thing"... You will remember hearing a "bang" and then see St. Peter at the gates..

If they "announce" "We are cops!!" and break in; well, shoot away is what I say.. No real cop will do that, and the good ones won't announce themselves..

 

[JMLV]

PERHAPS COPIES OF THIS THREAD

AND OTHERS ON THE SAME TOPIC SHOULD BE PRINTED OUT BY THE LEO'S ON THE BOARD AND POSTED ON THEIR DEPARTMENTS BULLTIAN BOARD? IF NOTHING ELSE IT WILL LET THEM KNOW WHAT THE PUBLIC THINKS OF THEIR NINJA MASKS AND NO KNOCK RAIDS.

 

[Marko Kloos]

If you don't have the evidence to make your case in front of a judge without the stuff that might get flushed down the toilet while you knock, you damn sure don't have enough evidence to kick down the door with machine guns.

This silly War on Drugs needs to end, and its proponents need to force themselves to re-learn the lessons of the Prohibition. Every infringement of our civil rights since NFA '34 has been a direct result of prohibitionist do-gooder legislation. I don't care how much damage you think drugs inflict...it pales in comparison to the damage inflicted on society by asset forfeiture, no-knock raids, and other excesses of the War On Some Drugs.

 

[AmericanFreeBird]

First I'd say that I hope this senario never happens, I don't look forward to the day if or when I have to seriously put another human being in my sights and fire at them.

Having said that, I am a law abiding citizen who will be more than happy to open my door to allow real police officers in if they have a warrant authorizing their entry. If they're not there to unconstitutionally confiscate arms in some door to door operation, then they are welcome to search the place. I have nothing to hide.

Come breaking in, in the middle of the night with masks and guns and grenades and I'll ask for no quarter and I'll give none. If it's in my power, I'm taking at least one of you with me.

Anyone busting down my door at 2:00am with a gun is a BG. If I even suspect you're wearing body armour your forehead will make an excellent bullseye as will mine. Shoot straight or die.

My applogies in advance if you're one of the good guys.

 

[Edward429451]

If the police knock and announce a warrant, I will cooperate (again, with the possible exception of wholesale firearms confiscation from the public.)

I have to ask this....

How will you know their intended purpose before being secured by them? Do you think they'll announce "We're here to confiscate your guns!!"??????

 

[Rebel Gunman HK]

If the cops want to look and pretend they are Navy Seals they should join the Navy. If they want to be cops they need to look and act like one.

 

[Deadhand]

"just have to ask: why you have been involved in "a number of raids" ??? "

Yes, some of the raids were drug related, some were for known, wanted, DANGEROUS felons, others were for search warrants for burglary suspects, etc. The bottom line is this-
If you read about a raid gone bad in a newspaper, GET THE WHOLE STORY! Not what the liberal, cop-hating, left wing press WANTS you know. I have read some terrible things about myself in the local rag that were not even close to the truth.
I've got a family, a nice home, a college education, and a 15 year career and not one of them am I willing to sacrifice to a bad (or good) guy's gun! Nor do I intend to let some trial lawyer take them away.
I do not participate in warrant searches anymore, but I still work with many who do, and I can tell you that the law is increasingly NOT on the cops' side. It is harder and harder to make your case, and harder still to make it stick. Hell, the crooks are out on bail before the arrest card is completed! Maybe in some backwater communities some LEOs get away with sloppy case preparation, but not here in California. There are twice as many lawyers here than doctors, and they love to collect the hides of cops that screw up.
To answer another question, here in my city, unless you were waiting with gun in hand, ready to go, you would probably not have a chance to defend yourself against the cops. Period. If the case agent knows anything about you, he'd know that you had the gun and would use some other method to make the arrest. Contrary to popular belief, 99.99 percent of police officers are not gun-totin' cowboys looking for their next target.
If my front door gets smashed in while I'm sitting in front of the tube, I'll submit- I probably not have any other choice.
Several years ago, there was a string of home invasion robberies here, with a pair of shotgun toting bad guys. Their method was rather crude- one would walk up to a front window during "dinner" hours, peek in, if all of the occupants were sitting down at the table they would then ring the door bell. When the door was opened, they would rush in, fire a shot into the ceiling and take a t.v. or VCR. A few unlucky folks got bonked with a shotgun when they didn't cooperate. The whole town was terrorized. I met quite a few people that were packin' sidearms at home. The two were finally caught when an alert citizen saw them get out of their car with the guns, and they were taken into custody without incident. During this time, you can be sure that there were no raids by the P.D.!
If you loose sleep on this subject, you have other, more pressing issues to deal with.

 

[CWL]

The local cops that I know and respect, and who do high-risk entries know their business. If they enter your place and and you resist, you die. -Simply because there will be 6-8 of them armed with M4s and you probably wont.

A team in a large city can serve between 6-20 warrants each day, they will be better than you. Accept this.


With that said, the ones I've met and talked with are also some of the coolest people who are doing a dangerous job. They are just professionals who want to go home when their work is done. They don't "live for the kill" like some people believe.

Also they don't do that many "no knocks" if ever -I've engaged in this conversation many times. You've got to be a very very dangerous person/gang or in some sort of hostage situation. That, or your local PD doesn't have a clue is full of cowboys and DOES need housecleaning. They police here don't like to do them, and they are certainly not done just because of some snitches' word.

Here in Northern CA, even the most dangerous warrants are typically served with a door-knock. This includes dangerous felon arrests, robbery, drug and amphetamine lab busts. -Meth lab cookers are usually people who have nothing to lose and also have had their sense of reality baked right out of their skulls by not having slept for 2-weeks running while ingesting unknown quantities of methamphetamines, and even these guys get a knock on thier doors.

I think that the few, and they are only a few, wrongly served warrants are being incorrectly perceived as a majority.