Home invaders pretend to be police

[Wesson Smith]

Well, I guess we've just heard several arguments implying that all resistance is futile? Guess I'd better go on Monday and see what I can get for my long guns. Guess I don't need 'em anymore.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

First, given that sometimes we have to arrest heavily armed criminals, and sometimes it really does have to be in their homes, I do believe that the "shock and awe" type of police raid is sometimes the best option. Not always, but sometimes.

I would respectfully disagree that it ever has to be in their home. If they are an immediate threat to the public or are engaged in a hostage situation then they are expecting you and you have lost the element of surprise. If not, setting up an ambush were the persons ID be confirmed prior to the initiating any potentially life threatening actions seems far more appropriate and has the strategic advantage of visual contact at the point of execution.

 

[gallo]

I grew up in a concrete house with metal screen doors and metal doors bolted and welded to metal plates onto the concrete. The house also had window bars that in case of a fire it would have been impossible to escape. That was never a concern and we all slept peacefully. Mind you this was on the good part of town, too. It's just the way construction is done in Mexico. I miss that house.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

Messy, unpleasant subject. But it's something we have to think about.

Much as I'd hate to unknowingly shoot a cop, I can't assume that anyone who knocks my door down while shouting "police!" is the real thing.

If they're genuine 5-0, they're probably gonna be on me before I can shoot 'em. So I actually just hope that if I'm raided by accident, the guys doing it are pros despite having bad intel. Because if cops who aren't pros bust down my door, screw it up, and give me enough time to get to a gun, then somebody's getting shot. Probably me. Maybe them too.

Hell of a way to die.

So come on, fellas. Be pros. If you come knocking with your boot toe, do it right. My only barometer for "police or not police" is whether you can take me down before I can get some of us killed, and I can't pull any punches because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Hell of a way to live, too.

 

[Wheeler44]

Hell of a way to live, too.

Amen
Sarge says,

And while I would never discourage anyone from defending their family, what is the likelihood that even if you get a shot off at the first guy through the door, the next half dozen or so aren't going to fill you so full of lead that your autopsy will be a hazardous waste cleanup? Please understand, I am in no way condoning the erroneous raids mentioned throughout this thread, just interjecting what I think are some valid points/questions.

Chief answered

Most folks have never been on the receiving end of violence of action or force of action, particularly by a trained, disciplined, and motivated team. If you are REALLY REALLY GOOD, you might take one of them out, before you are put down.

If you are in fact armed with most likely a side arm, you are now being overrun by several fellows in body armor rifles/shotguns, bright lights in your face, the flashbang that just went off, and whole lot of folks hollering at you. Now if you should lift your weapon, and possibly hit any of your attackers, Sarge said it very well about a "toxic autopsy", and I would like to advise that all those AR rifles firing directly at you in a room at distances of 3 to 12 feet, well you world will be rocked. Your hearing is gone, no night vision, you are confused and "where did all those holes in my chest come from?"

Frankly if a trained team hits you, you are basically screwed. Doesn't much matter if they are good guys making a mistake, or bad guys there to steal or take care of you, or both. You are screwed. The good news is that very few bad guys are trained and organized as a strike team and properly equipped.

I have two things for you to think about,Sarge and Chief. 1.The uber-tactical raid on the Hmong fella in Milwaukie, Hmong fella 2, SWAT team 0 ( but at least they fired more shots)
2. There are many, and I repeat, many seasoned vets returning from active duty overseas. Some with PTSD. Most with serious training and I'd guess that at least some of 'em are light sleepers.
I'd also make the bold estimate that a majority of them are heavily armed.

Okay one more,
3.Ryan Fredericks, Tidewater area VA, same deal. Fredericks 1, Raiders 0

Sleep well,

Wheeler44

ETA. ps. none of the above chest thumping answers the question posed by the OP. What's a peaceable, law-abiding, head of household to do?

 

[jakemccoy]

For those who are talking about hardening your doors to the nth degree, do you not have windows?

 

[chieftain]

Well, I guess we've just heard several arguments implying that all resistance is futile? Guess I'd better go on Monday and see what I can get for my long guns. Guess I don't need 'em anymore.

Interesting but wrong interpretation of what I said. I said you are probably going to lose. That had nothing to do with not fighting back. As violently and vigorously as you can. My suggestion would be more and better training. But that's just me.

Another respondent pointed out a fellow who did win one. Believe me he is the exception not the rule. It ain't imposable, just not very likely.

But inspite of all that, my old Gunny always said, "Don't ever give in, never quit.

Here are some quotes I like about the subject. I apologize for the high Churchill content. He is one of my greatest men of all times.

If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. --Sir Winston Churchill

“Courage is almost a contradiction in terms. It means a strong desire to live taking the form of readiness to die.” --Gilbert Keith Chesterton

“Never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” --Winston Churchill

"If you're going through hell, keep going." --Winston Churchill

"Victory at all cost. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory no matter how long and how hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival" --Winston Churchill

And to quote my old Gunny: “You only lose when you quit, to not lose is simple. Never quit.”

I didn't say it was futile, I said you are screwed. Never forget Gunny: "Never Quit, Never give up"

Go figure.

Fred

 

[TimboKhan]

Provided I had the time to sit around and think about it, I would highly doubt that the fuzz would kick my door in for a variety of reasons, chief among which is that there is no need to, as I am no outlaw.

Second, I suspect that the real cops would just get the landlord to either give them a key or have him open up my apartment.

Third, it would be easy enough for the cops to lob tear gas through my balcony door and choke me out, which would be easier than kicking my door in.

Fourth, the heart attack I would likely have when the cops come busting through my door as I sit in my underwear surrounded by empty cheetos bags and cans of Coke in front of my computer typing out internet screeds on inappropriate police behavior would render null and void any attempt at armed resistance.

 

[762 shooter]

Chieftan: Nice Post

Timbokhan: Funny Man

 

[ilbob]

If I accidently kill/maim/injure someone I will be held accountable and rightly so. When the cops do it they get a pass and possibly a medal/promotion. Why aren’t they held to the same standards as everyone else?

They should, but the only way it will happen is if you get some legislation to make it happen. You need some kind of independent investigation and prosecution to make for a fair system That is virtually unheard of in this country.

Most cops are good folks. Yet, they tolerate the bad ones and allow them to besmirch the entire profession even to the point of allowing themselves to be tarred with the same brush. Why don’t they carry out their own trash?

I think they do in most departments. Good departments tend to have pretty decent solf policing. The good ones really can't do much about the bad departments.

 

[Deanimator]

I think they do in most departments. Good departments tend to have pretty decent solf policing. The good ones really can't do much about the bad departments.

You can tell a "good" department from a "bad" one.

In a good one, you see a bad apple every once in a while. They get caught and fired, if not prosecuted. You don't hear a lot of the local cops talking about how Officer Friendly got a "raw deal" because he was fired and or prosecuted for kicking some woman's teeth down her throat because she dared to talk back to him. You don't see them saying they're going to stop protecting the public at large because of it.

In a bad one, you see a seemingly endless parade of "isolated incidents". Cop after cop after cop gets caught doing the same things over and over and over. Nobody ever gets punished unless they're caught on video, and only grudgingly then. The offenders are treated with deference. Their co-workers claim that beating the daylights out of a woman is a "mistake". They don't consider after the fact threats to retaliate against victims or witnesses a crime. When a cop wrongfully or even criminally shoots a Black person, they call it "winning the ghetto lottery", as if having a family member killed is something to celebrate. Every reluctant prosecution of a cop who commits a crime is attended by threats from his co-workers to stop "protecting" the public.

Every place I've lived save one has been in the first category, even those in the deep South. The place where I was born is in the second, always has been, probably always will.

 

[Wesson Smith]

I'd like to clarify my post #76, if I may. I'm certainly not advocating
in any way, shape or form violence directed towards law enforcement.
Heck, two of my closest friends are cops. I guess all I was trying to
say was that I will, to the best of my ability, attempt to defend my
family and home with everything I can muster. I think we all feel that way.
I wasn't born yesterday, and I am fairly certain that I will come out on
the losing end of the proposition when confronted by trained professionals
in an armed conflict, whoever they may be. Frankly, I believe my odds of
being mistaken for a dangerous fugitive from justice by LE are one in a
million. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this one. Sorry if I came off
as a wannabe suburban warrior.

 

[ilbob]

In a bad one, you see a seemingly endless parade of "isolated incidents". Cop after cop after cop gets caught doing the same things over and over and over. Nobody ever gets punished unless they're caught on video, and only grudgingly then.

In fairness, even in the bad agencies, there are good cops. But the situation is such that it is not realistic to expect that the good ones will do anything, or even can do anything, about the bad ones. In the end, it is usually really a political problem, with extremely corrupt politicians running things. Its not surprising that the police department is not well run in such a circumstance.

 

[dalepres]

Well, according to sargespd and chieftan, we just have to roll over to bad guys even though there is almost zero chance of the police getting the address wrong. To defend ourselves and our families warrants our being killed. No wonder police departments feel no need to investigate before the armed assault. They're always right. We're always wrong. And if they're wrong, we're still wrong and we deserve to die.

 

[dalepres]

So come on, fellas. Be pros. If you come knocking with your boot toe, do it right. My only barometer for "police or not police" is whether you can take me down before I can get some of us killed, and I can't pull any punches because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Man, you hit the nail on the head. The simple solution to this whole question is for the cops to be so good at what they do that they can disarm me without killing me. That's a professional!

 

[pbearperry]

Internet heroes

Man you tough guys slay me.You remind me of all the bad guys who swear nobody will take them alive and then they get arrested without incident.lol
I think too many people here are playing too much Playstation.

 

[novaDAK]

I'm waiting for a 4th Amendment violation case. There is no way that these 'no-knock' warrants are constitutional. We are obviously not 'secure' in our own home against unreasonable search and seizure, when they don't even knock and give the home owner a chance to comply with the warrant peacefully. And there is no way that breaking down my front (or back) door, subjecting me to devices that temporarily (and/or permanently) cause blindness and deafness, not to mention asphyxia, aiming deadly weapons at my head, etc. is anywhere near reasonable.

 

[Wheeler44]

Internet heroes
Man you tough guys slay me.You remind me of all the bad guys who swear nobody will take them alive and then they get arrested without incident.lol
I think too many people here are playing too much Playstation.

You're talkin' about Chief and Sarge, Right?

 

[dalepres]

Man you tough guys slay me.You remind me of all the bad guys who swear nobody will take them alive and then they get arrested without incident.lol
I think too many people here are playing too much Playstation.

You're right. I suggest disassembling all of your guns, installing trigger locks, and locking them all in a safe. When bad guys do come into your home wearing black and yelling "Police!", just ask them to wait at the door while you obtain, remove the locks from, assemble, and load your weapon.

Perhaps a move to the District of Columbia is in your future.

 

[gtd]

SARGESPD:

". . . given that sometimes we have to arrest heavily armed criminals, and sometimes it really does have to be in their homes . . . ."

It's not a given. You don't have to, you choose to -- that's the whole point of this thread. But when you choose to, you present yourselves in the same fashion as criminal home invaders. It presents a dilemma for the innocent homeowner.

 

[OAKTOWN]

Most folks have never been on the receiving end of violence of action or force of action, particularly by a trained, disciplined, and motivated team. If you are REALLY REALLY GOOD, you might take one of them out, before you are put down.

If you are in fact armed with most likely a side arm, you are now being overrun by several fellows in body armor rifles/shotguns, bright lights in your face, the flashbang that just went off, and whole lot of folks hollering at you. Now if you should lift your weapon, and possibly hit any of your attackers, Sarge said it very well about a "toxic autopsy", and I would like to advise that all those AR rifles firing directly at you in a room at distances of 3 to 12 feet, well you world will be rocked. Your hearing is gone, no night vision, you are confused and "where did all those holes in my chest come from?"

Thanks for clearing that up. Bottom line is; cops bust down the wrong door and you're there with a gun in your hand, they'll do their damnedest to murder you.


Anyone get the feeling the cops enjoy this "shock and awe" crap a little too much? Like 13 year old kids overdosed on Tom Clancey. "Strike teams", what the hell is that? They're cops not the frickin' delta force. People who want to be ninja commandos should wheel themselves down to the local recruiter.

 

[zxcvbob]

Those of you considering spending a fortune hardening your doors and windows, you might wanna consider putting most of your effort into hardening an *interior* room. The invaders (criminal or otherwise) can breach your outer security faster than you can react. But that will wake you up and give you a chance to be ready for them when they eventually get through the bedroom door.

A couple of dogs in the house will slow them down a bit too. The dog takes the first bullet, but that's better than *you* taking it. Besides, the dog instinctively knows that that's one of his jobs.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Video security is cheap these days. At least you can see who's coming:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11274872

 

[chieftain]

Well, according to sargespd and chieftan, we just have to roll over to bad guys even though there is almost zero chance of the police getting the address wrong. To defend ourselves and our families warrants our being killed. No wonder police departments feel no need to investigate before the armed assault. They're always right. We're always wrong. And if they're wrong, we're still wrong and we deserve to die.

I don’t know what you think a life and death struggle is. Or understand that who ever has more controlled and disciplined force normally wins. I am talking about real combat, military, police, and self defense. Just cause it ain’t the way you have fantasized it to be, doesn’t make it any less real.

If you ever get in a real firefight, it is a life and death situation. You will not win just because you want to. That is an element, but no where near the whole enchilada. You can lose because of your own lack of will verses your opponent(s). You can lose because you were unlucky, you can lose because your wife turned the light on behind you silhouetting for the bad guys, your kids might start screaming and running out of their rooms towards the bad guys, etc. You have poor, or little or no training, or no or poor practice. There are more ways to lose than to win.

The only guaranteed way to not get hurt or killed in combat, is to avoid combat. There is no other guaranteed way.

Now no one here except you have said “we deserve to die” or “To defend ourselves and our families warrants our being killed.” There is no morals in combat. Only success or failure. Combat isn’t good or bad, only deadly.

Apparently you have been lucky enough to have avoided it. I haven’t.

Internet heroes

I ain’t no hero. All the hero’s I have been proud to have known, and there have been to many, are buried in VA cemeteries.

Where are your hero’s buried.

Man you tough guys slay me.You remind me of all the bad guys who swear nobody will take them alive and then they get arrested without incident.lol
I think too many people here are playing too much Playstation.

Personally, I have never played on a play station. No doubt your knowledge of the game is vastly superior to mine.

Frankly we did fight to the death. We only gave quarter when ordered, and weren’t given any. How many Marine enlisted infantry do you think were repatriated after the Vietnam war? Let’s just say, you could count them on less than all the fingers on one hand.

I have been there and done that. Two tours with the 3rd Marine Division , 67.68, 69. Among a few other things I have two purple hearts. I don’t doubt you have a bunch more than I do, and your experience is vastly greater than mine. I estimate I have only been in approx 97 fire fights, unlike you.

To experienced combat veterans like yourself I am sure I am a piker. And of course my present situation as a 100% disabled combat vet is beneath your consideration.

Please reread #84, again.

I like to hope that I can do as well as a General I served under, General Marion Carl. He was the Marine Corps first Ace in WW II, at Guadalcanal. I served under him, much later. Several years ago, well into his late 80’s, some POS broke into his home. He died with his 1911 in his hand. The POS shot him, but IIRC he hit the bad guy but didn’t kill him. He went down STILL fighting. God bless him

You're right. I suggest disassembling all of your guns, installing trigger locks, and locking them all in a safe. When bad guys do come into your home wearing black and yelling "Police!", just ask them to wait at the door while you obtain, remove the locks from, assemble, and load your weapon.

Huh? Maybe your weapons will be in that condition, mine will not. The vermin will meet the fire of my weapons. I may well lose, but I will go down fighting. Now I don’t fight as well as I did in the mid 60’s and still later in the 70‘s. But I can still fight and will.

Perhaps a move to the District of Columbia is in your future.

Why. I am happy in the free state of Arizona, where I stand a fighting chance. You going to DC, or just being well…….

Thanks for clearing that up. Bottom line is; cops bust down the wrong door and you're there with a gun in your hand, they'll do their damnedest to murder you.

It isn’t murder, and it is wrong, but you can put all that on your tombstone. Use the political and legal means to change it now, don‘t wait. I hope that does clear it up for you. Apparently you have been lucky, and not had to much real life in your life.

Anyone get the feeling the cops enjoy this "shock and awe" crap a little too much? Like 13 year old kids overdosed on Tom Clancey. "Strike teams", what the hell is that? They're cops not the frickin' delta force. People who want to be ninja commandos should wheel themselves down to the local recruiter.

I don’t doubt somewhere there are cops that enjoy hurting folks for no other reason than to hurt them. There are wrong folks in every and all occupations. They need to be weeded out. But when I worked with my Sheriff’s dept in Florida, and Later Florida DOC, I didn’t know any.

Life ain’t a video game, there is no reset, you only get one go around. The police DO need the capability. But that capability should only be used when absolutely necessary.

I did go to the recruiter, about 42 years ago. Been there, done that, got the wounds, tee shirt and sun visor, and wheel chair license plates. Have you been to your recruiter? Well MAN UP and get down there. Serve your country!

I used to fight the NVA. Now I fight the VA.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Powderman]

Sooner or later the cops are going to get into a situation where they're outgunned, then you'll see a change

Uh huh.

How about responding to a call where there's a guy hanging out of a window with an SKS rifle, pointing it at people? Does that count?

A lot of you are posting from paranoia and chest thumping. Yes, I said it.

To answer the original poster, on any law enforcement raid there will be at least ONE uniformed officer. They might not be on the primary entry team, but there WILL be one there. There will also be at least one marked unit somewhere in the vicinity.

As for what some of you have said that you "will" do if some of my brothers and sisters behind the badge do a forcible entry, consider this: Why are you worried about a forced, high risk entry? Are you doing something you should not be doing? Hiding something you should not have?

One of the posters said something about the ease of getting a search warrant. You have no clue, and that's the nicest way I can say it.

Some of you have this impression that we have some kind of "sovereign immunity". Again, you have NO clue what we have hanging over our heads while we work.

And, to all of the mall ninjas stating how they're going to harden their doors, kill cops wholesale and other such nonsense, here's an offer for you: If it is such a sad state of affairs, why don't you get hired on--as a cop--and clear it all up? Walk a mile in our shoes for a change--then come back and post about how easy it is to be a cop.

To Chieftan: You go, Marine! I would be honored to meet you--I have some friends in AZ, around Chandler. If I'm down that way, I'd like to meet you. Steak is on me.