Interesting Couple Of Minutes This Morning.

[Frank Ettin]

...from my take of your post you DID NOT show your gun, correct?

The OP worte:

...cleared my cover garment, put my hand on my gun but didn't draw and asked him "Is everything OK?" The guy looked at me and mumbled something...

So it appears to me that while the OP didn't draw his gun, he did display it in what could be interpreted as a threatening manner; and it also appears that the gun might very well have seen the gun.

If you are you displaying your gun to intimidate someone, to assure that someone keeps his distance or leaves, to secure his compliance, etc., your display could well be seen as a threat.

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law, is:

an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm or telling someone you have a gun, when done for the purposes of intimidation, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

 

[2zulu1]

Had a run in with a mentally disturbed homeless man this morning. I was on my way to my church for a function. The church is only a block or two from my home so I was on foot.

I walked across a bridge and I heard something in the weeds underneath, turned around and looked and a homeless guy that lives in my neighborhood is running up the bank behind me.

Like I said the guy is known in the neighborhood and he's nuts so I kept an eye on him and kept moving away but I wasn't too concerned. So long story short about a half a block away he's catching up to me and I turn to look at him and he has a knife in his hand.

At this point he still hasn't even acknowledged my presence but because he is coming towards me with a weapon in his hand I felt justified in taking at a minimum a more defensive posture so I backed up behind a transformer box, cleared my cover garment, put my hand on my gun but didn't draw and asked him "Is everything OK?" The guy looked at me and mumbled something about donuts and walked away.

At this point he's ahead of me and moving away (I.E. No longer a threat) and all I have to do is change direction. At this point I take my hand off my gun and take a 90 degree turn away from the guy and walk away. Last I saw he was washing his face in the window washer fluid at a gas station.

I didn't call the cops because they wouldn't have done anything anyway but I did tell my wife that if she sees this guy around our building she is not to go outside and if she's in the car she's to go around the block again.

My main point in this is that I did take any action until I could articulate a specific action on his part (coming towards me with a weapon in his hand) that would have made any reasonable person in the same situation feel threatened and as soon as the threat ended I stood down.

Do any of you think I acted out of turn?

I simply find your opening and subsequent posts to be contradictory. There's an adult male, knife in hand who is following you and is also closing the distance between the two of you fast enough that you need to find cover, at 30 feet, in case you need to defend yourself with deadly force.

We know that from when you first see him 'til you last saw him was about two minutes.

We know you instructed your wife not to get out of her car or leave the house if she sees this individual, also, we know that you chose not to make a police report of this incident....in part, because it was not serious enough.

We do not know if this individual has been interviewed or arrested before (criminal file) or after this incident.

We know that you asked for advice on an international website critiquing your actions during this two minute incident.

 

[fallout mike]

so I backed up behind a transformer box
DING DING DING

cleared my cover garment, put my hand on my gun but didn't draw





Guess you missed the being behind the transformer box part..

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Guess you missed the being behind the transformer box part.....

Didn't miss that, but there's no reason to believe that he was completely obscured, especially in the context of the rest of the story.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I can't answer whether or not the guy saw the gun, his behavior didn't change, he didn't run away. He started mumbling something about donuts and kept right on walking.

That said, I didn't put my hand on my gun to "intimidate" him or to "assure he kept his distance". Did you not read the part where he was a flipping moonbat with a deadly weapon in his hand? I was getting ready to defend myself. Had he turned toward me or brought that knife up I would have drawn. The reaction I did get is what made me question that he even knew what I was.

I don't know if you guys get this but when I say this dude was crazy I mean he was crazy. Like can't tell reality from fantasy crazy. Like wash your face with window cleaner crazy. Like he might have been 100% convinced I was the jolly green giant or just another hallucination crazy.

That's also why I told my wife to stay away from him, he's crazy and you don't know what crazy people are going to do next and that makes crazy people dangerous.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Again, I get that you all think I should have called the cops but the fact is I didn't and nothing that we say here is going to change that. I most assuredly am not going to call them now. If someone else called them and they happen to figure out that it was me (and they decide to go past all the crack heads, tweakers,muggers and rapists in this neighborhood and look for me) I will tell them the truth and go from there

Hopefully there never WILL be a next time but if there is I will give your suggestions due consideration.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Did you not read the part where he was a flipping moonbat with a deadly weapon in his hand?....

That does not change the nature or quality of your acts. What is does is help reinforce the argument that you were justified in doing what you did.

But to an observer, and perhaps to the subject himself, you were threatening him with a gun. You reasonably appeared to be committing an assault. Because of the subject's demeanor and actions, you should be able to legally justify your acts, but that's taking the analysis to yet another level.

Sn you still should have reported the incident for a variety of reasons.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Sn you still should have reported the incident for a variety of reasons.

But I didn't and no matter how many times you type that you aren't going to change that

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Trunk Monkey:

But I didn't [report it] and no matter how many times you type that you aren't going to change that

That's obvious. And it's not at issue. The operative phrase is should have.

I didn't report the guy in the State park with the knife. No cell phones then, and it was quite a long drive to anywhere with a phone.

And I was not really aware of the importance.

But were it to happen today, and in particular, if I had been armed and had been forced to display a weapon, I surely would. We have cell phones today, and now know the importance of doing so.

 

[gtd]

"So now homeless people are a "threat"? Good grief."

"Crazy" homeless people with knives.

 

[gtd]

"But to an observer, and perhaps to the subject himself, you were threatening him with a gun. You reasonably appeared to be committing an assault. Because of the subject's demeanor and actions, you should be able to legally justify your acts, but that's taking the analysis to yet another level. "

The way I see it, that's all after-the-fact stuff. You can argue all you want . . . if you live to argue. At the time, I probably would have had my pistol drawn (but discretely behind my leg or something) because the knife comes at you too fast to react. When the threat passed, the gun would've been holstered. I think the OP showed restraint under the circumstances. Any rational observer should see the situation exactly for what it was. A reasonable person *preparing* to defend himself against a crazy, armed person.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by gtd:

Posted by Frank Ettin:

"But to an observer, and perhaps to the subject himself, you were threatening him with a gun. You reasonably appeared to be committing an assault. Because of the subject's demeanor and actions, you should be able to legally justify your acts, but that's taking the analysis to yet another level. "

The way I see it, that's all after-the-fact stuff. You can argue all you want . . . if you live to argue. At the time, I probably would have had my pistol drawn (but discretely behind my leg or something) because the knife comes at you too fast to react. When the threat passed, the gun would've been holstered. I think the OP showed restraint under the circumstances. Any rational observer should see the situation exactly for what it was. A reasonable person *preparing* to defend himself against a crazy, armed person.

"After the fact stuff" is what follows any use of force incident; how it unfolds is critical.

In this case, nothing happened except a long discussion on a public forum. In some cases, someone reports the incident. Who does so and when can be important.

As Frank said, "you should be able to legally justify your acts" (lawful self defense is a defense against a charge of assault).

A man approaching with knife in hand in the dark? Sounds ominous to me. Whn that happened to me in broad daylight, I was unarmed. The incident should prove to anyone the justification for concealed carry.

The distance involved meant that I would not have had to display a weapon before I got to my car.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I think you handled it pretty well. I used to walk 5 or 6 blocks to work in a bad neighborhood at 6 am. In the winter it doesn't get light until 7:30. I can't count how many times I was approached by nut jobs, druggies and prostitutes. I always stopped and talked to them. I usually just told them I didn't want anything they had and cautiously moved away. I saw some pretty crazy stuff, fights, drug deals, people walking out in traffic, you name it. When I got to work I had to secure my weapon in a locker for the day. Everyone I worked with knew I carried and most thought it was strange. None of them walked thru that neighborhood, they just paid the $70 a month to park in the garage because it was to dangerous to walk to work. Never called the cops, I had to get to work.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

This incident happened in daylight

 

[CoalTrain49]

It can happen any time, but the druggies usually hit the streets early in the morning. The mentally ill are a problem all of the time. I used to see them roaming the streets at all hours.

 

[TRX]

> The sad part is that your experience is being duplicated all
> across the country since we ignore our "homeless crazies"
> until they actually hurt someone.

Until they hurt someone, they're free citizens going about their lawful affairs, exactly like you.

You really, really don't want that "official sanity card" Wayne LaPierre was bleating about after Sandy Hook. While he was probably supporting it purely for propaganda value, lot of people who should know better seem to think there's some completely incorruptible, always-correct "them" would would be in charge of such a thing. That would likely be the same "them" who run the CDC and ACA now.

Brrr....

 

[Kleanbore]

Why do we assume that this fellow was "crazy"? Does it really matter whether he was homeless or not ? He was walking with a knife in his hand. That's what matters.

 

[fallout mike]

Exactly Kleanbore, if I'm walking down the road with a knife in my hand cleaning my fingernails or whatnot I'm not doing anything against the law.

 

[sequins]

If a police officer experienced the same exact scenario described by the OP it is my firm belief that an officer would shoot and kill the homeless man. If I wanted him dead I'd call the police, if I wanted to let him live I wouldn't. All the people saying "You should have called the cops!" Would have gotten that poor soul killed if they had been in your shoes. Thank you for showing mercy OP.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by sequins:

All the people saying "You should have called the cops!" Would have gotten that poor soul killed if they had been in your shoes.

Bull. The point was to call it in first, after the incident. The man would have been long gone.

Thanks for showing mercy OP.

Bull. The actor could only shoot lawfully if there had been a basis for a reasonable belief that shooting had been immediately necessary. Absent such conditions, not shooting had nothing to do with "showing mercy". Had that condition existed, not shooting would have been more than foolhardy.

 

[sequins]

Kleanbore, in my city a policeman who was driving along the street doing whatever policeman do saw a mentally ill homeless man who was a facsimile for the mentally ill homeless man described by the OP (knife in hand but no specific threatening action). Upon seeing the mentally ill homeless man the policeman stopped what he was doing, slammed on his brakes, jumped out of the patrol vehicle, and shot the mentally ill homeless man with the knife in his hand who was taking no specific threatening action dead. It was sad. There was another case in New Mexico where a pair of officers strapped up and went into the desert specifically to kill a mentally ill homeless man and they were brought up on charges I believe after an audio recording of the officers pre-meditating the killing was discovered. I can think of other cases where parents called cops on "suicidal" teenage children and they wound up with a dead teenage child right quick.

If you think calling the police as a response to someone who is mentally ill isn't going to strongly increase the mentally persons chance of being shot and killed by said police I think you're being a little naive. Furthermore the OP could have shot and probably not even faced charges. A mentally ill homeless man advancing with knife would likely not even draw an indictment unless you had some really unfortunate excited utterances during the after action report.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If a police officer experienced the same exact scenario described by the OP it is my firm belief that an officer would shoot and kill the homeless man.....

Based on what, exactly? Unless your belief is based on substantial evidence, there's no reason anyone should care what you believe.

People believe all sorts of nonsense, from there being paranormal attributes to the Bermuda Triangle, to the the moon landing being a hoax, to the Holocaust having never happened, etc. Such silly beliefs aren't worth serious consideration.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Kleanbore, in my city a cop who was driving along the street doing whatever cops do saw a mentally ill homeless man who was a facsimile for the man described by the OP (knife in hand but no specific threatening action). Upon seeing the homeless man the cop stopped what he was doing, slammed on his brakes, jumped out, and shot the homeless mentally ill man with the knife dead. It was sad. There was another case I believe in New Mexico where a pair of officers strapped up and went into the desert specifically to kill a mentally ill homeless man and they were brought up on charges I believe after an audio recording of the officers pre-meditating the killing was discovered. I can think of other cases where parents called cops on "suicidal" teenage children and they wound up with a dead teenage child right quick....

Let's see documentation. I am not prepared to accept either your unsupported claims that these events happened, or that they happened as you have described, without solid documentation.

Among other things, the details and having complete and accurate information matter. One should not be drawing conclusions about important issues without complete and well documented information. Rumor and distant "recollections" are lousy reasons to believe anything.

Also, there are always outlier events -- aberrations or incidents not consistent with and outside the normal range of happenings. One cannot reliably draw conclusions about anything based on outliers.

As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Why do we assume that this fellow was "crazy"?

Maybe people are assuming this fellow is crazy because I (remember me the guy who was actually there)said he was crazy. I see the guy in the neighborhood and he is nuts. Did you not read the part where he was washing his face in window cleaner ?

You may be a THR tactical guru and resident expert of all things gun but please don't try to second guess the guy who was actually there and actually interacted with the crazy person.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Bull. The actor could only shoot lawfully if there had been a basis for a reasonable belief that shooting had been immediately necessary.

Let's see Crazy guy with a deadly weapon who any rational person would probably agree appeared to be following me specifically just one week To.The.Day after another crazy guy walking around with a deadly weapon murdered 3 people about 5 miles away.

Don't think I would have had to try too hard to articulate a reasonable fear that my life was in danger.