JohnBT
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"I guess i'll stick to my own study, of what i learned, living with and hunting them"
Bears or government biologists?
Bears or government biologists?
Interesting New Study of Bears vs. Guns
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Hocka Louis
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Look, in a bear attack any gun you are holding will suddenly feel inadequate and inaccurate.
I would not deny the buckshot proponents for DEFENSIVE purposes against brown bear. A point is that you don't have to hit the bear with ALL the pellets, however nice that'd be. And don't presume or rely on hitting it in the face or blinding it with any pellets, just as I am hesitant to rely on hitting it properly with a slug in a split-second event that lasts a lifetime.
However, penetration is a critical issue. Bears are tough and big. Slow soft lead pellets for a grizzly should not be used. Some don't think ANY buckshot should be used but I think they are misguided. I have carried a short, slung, 500 with six rounds (five rounds of 3" Winchester fit in the tube) of buckshot in Alaska for defense against predators, but they were 3" Magnum copper-plated 000 (the largest that loads well in a 12 ga. hull) buckshot.
For bear, grizzly at least for darn sure, you should always use plated or hard shot and please do not use 2-3/4" rounds other than with slugs (which really should be hard too IMO).
I would not deny the buckshot proponents for DEFENSIVE purposes against brown bear. A point is that you don't have to hit the bear with ALL the pellets, however nice that'd be. And don't presume or rely on hitting it in the face or blinding it with any pellets, just as I am hesitant to rely on hitting it properly with a slug in a split-second event that lasts a lifetime.
However, penetration is a critical issue. Bears are tough and big. Slow soft lead pellets for a grizzly should not be used. Some don't think ANY buckshot should be used but I think they are misguided. I have carried a short, slung, 500 with six rounds (five rounds of 3" Winchester fit in the tube) of buckshot in Alaska for defense against predators, but they were 3" Magnum copper-plated 000 (the largest that loads well in a 12 ga. hull) buckshot.
For bear, grizzly at least for darn sure, you should always use plated or hard shot and please do not use 2-3/4" rounds other than with slugs (which really should be hard too IMO).
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General Geoff
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I might get some flak for suggesting this, but.. hypothetically speaking, wouldn't full auto be particularly useful against a bear charge? I'm thinking full auto 12 gauge with slugs, something along those lines. Preferably with a muzzle brake to help control recoil.
There is a lot of gamesmenship with bear behaviour, but yes, that would take a lot of nerve, or a lot stupidity depending on the circumstances. That is the situation where pepper spray is the most beneficial and I believe should have been deployed. If one of those people had panicked and ran, the story would be quite different.
Better to teach the bear to stay away from people with two or three folks engaging their Counter Assault or whatever brand they use. I wouldn't let a grizzly sniff me or my kids. No thank you. I will impose a self protective distance barrier either by pepper spray or lead spray from my .444.
Better to teach the bear to stay away from people with two or three folks engaging their Counter Assault or whatever brand they use. I wouldn't let a grizzly sniff me or my kids. No thank you. I will impose a self protective distance barrier either by pepper spray or lead spray from my .444.
fish2xs
Member
Here is the only line you need from the story
"Smith’s findings could have policy implications as more people carry firearms into national parks under a May 2010 rule change that lifted the National Park Service’s long-standing gun ban. In previous statistical studies, Smith has demonstrated that pepper-spray is effective in deterring aggressive bears."
This study from BYU is anti gun - period. I've met a bear in the wild (thank God), but I've met plenty of anti's and know where they are coming from.
"Smith’s findings could have policy implications as more people carry firearms into national parks under a May 2010 rule change that lifted the National Park Service’s long-standing gun ban. In previous statistical studies, Smith has demonstrated that pepper-spray is effective in deterring aggressive bears."
This study from BYU is anti gun - period. I've met a bear in the wild (thank God), but I've met plenty of anti's and know where they are coming from.
exavid
Member
When you consider #00 buckshot in a 12ga. consider that's not all that much different than nine shots from a .32ACP.
+1. Great comment and absolutely true. You must have penetration to reach the vitals. I have yet to see any study showing that kind of needed penetration with buckshot. If you are going to use buckshot, then bring a friend with a big rifle to rescue you once you get in trouble. Really not a good choice from all the objective data I have been able to see.
I have spent a fair amount of time in the Alaska wilderness and have a little different take on it. Just like home protection, skill with your weapon is the most critical factor in bear defense. I can't tell you how many times I saw people using a firearm as there only protection who couldn't hit the back side of a barn door with it if you only gave them 2 seconds. Very few people are fast enough, confident enough, and practice enough to adequately defend themselves from a bear with a firearm. I had a friend from the lower 48 come visit one year. He went fishing while I was at work and took my 44. he had never shot a 44 in his life. These aren't bobcats we are worried about was my response.
That is why I think it is very important for even gun advocates to highly encourage people to use bear spray. It is at least a lot easier to use and a lot more forgiving. Especially in an area like portage valley or the kenai river where there can be a lot of other people around. But I have found that it is very important to remove the arrogance from a lot of people when they go out. I always encourage bear spray to everyone except the most experienced.
I include myself in that category. I don't shoot enough or practice enough to rely entirely on my gun. I usually carry both. The last two summers I used a combination of 44mag, mosin nagant, and Winchester 12 gauge. And occasionally just my dogs. But I always had bear spray.
That is why I think it is very important for even gun advocates to highly encourage people to use bear spray. It is at least a lot easier to use and a lot more forgiving. Especially in an area like portage valley or the kenai river where there can be a lot of other people around. But I have found that it is very important to remove the arrogance from a lot of people when they go out. I always encourage bear spray to everyone except the most experienced.
I include myself in that category. I don't shoot enough or practice enough to rely entirely on my gun. I usually carry both. The last two summers I used a combination of 44mag, mosin nagant, and Winchester 12 gauge. And occasionally just my dogs. But I always had bear spray.
lloveless
Member
I agree with KodiakBeers #34 post. I was in Alaska for a year working. Only bear I saw was in the Anchorage zoo. Still when out and about on the tundra(kotzebue area) and forest(anchorage/fairbanks areas) I carried a .44 mag. A most perfect talisman that kept the evil bears away. The National Park Service acutually issues 12 ga shotguns with 00 buckshot for the first shot and slugs for subsequent shots to archeologists working on the tundra/coast in 2010/2011. I practiced with what I carried and was confident I could shoot if I had too. I was lucky and didn't have to test my belief.
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Bruno2
Member
Is it true that a bears heart rate is only 1/3 of ours? I have heard this , but , cant find any data to back it up with. If it is true I can certainly see how a gun would get you mauled in an attack regardless if you got nice placement or not.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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No thats not entirely true. While in hibernation, their heart rate will drop to approximately 10 bpm but during normal operation it is in upwards of 70bpm. I am sure that their cardio is far greater than ours so I don't think I would wish to test any theories about "outlasting" a Brown Bear.
KodiakBeer
member
I don't want to start a debate on slugs vs buckshot, but I can at least see the reasoning behind buckshot.
A bears brain is about the thickness of a softball, but it's oblong in shape. In size, it's not much different than a skinned rabbit. A bears face, at least the central area behind the nose and mouth where the bulk of the brain lies, is not bulletproof by any means. A few thin sheets of bone is all that lies between you and the brain. So, if you can reliably hit a running bunny at 15 yards with #6 shot, you can reliably hit a bears nose at the same distance with 000.
So, I guess the question you'd ask yourself is how often you miss that running bunny because he's at an awkward angle when he breaks cover or there's brush between you and it, or you're just caught by surprise. There's no doubt in my mind that if you make the shot at close range with heavy buck (under 20 yards?) that bear is going down right there.
I'll stick with slugs because I think you get extra insurance with a near miss because of the great penetration, but I still think a shotgun with buckshot is a much better choice than a handgun, or the typical hunting rifle topped with a 3x9 for that matter.
A bears brain is about the thickness of a softball, but it's oblong in shape. In size, it's not much different than a skinned rabbit. A bears face, at least the central area behind the nose and mouth where the bulk of the brain lies, is not bulletproof by any means. A few thin sheets of bone is all that lies between you and the brain. So, if you can reliably hit a running bunny at 15 yards with #6 shot, you can reliably hit a bears nose at the same distance with 000.
So, I guess the question you'd ask yourself is how often you miss that running bunny because he's at an awkward angle when he breaks cover or there's brush between you and it, or you're just caught by surprise. There's no doubt in my mind that if you make the shot at close range with heavy buck (under 20 yards?) that bear is going down right there.
I'll stick with slugs because I think you get extra insurance with a near miss because of the great penetration, but I still think a shotgun with buckshot is a much better choice than a handgun, or the typical hunting rifle topped with a 3x9 for that matter.
bhk
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Heck, if you are really gutsy, you can do what this guy apparently did with bird shot:
http://www.outdoors-411.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=37023
There are several articles on this incident you can Google. The killing shot was made at about 1 yard.
http://www.outdoors-411.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=37023
There are several articles on this incident you can Google. The killing shot was made at about 1 yard.
scaatylobo
Member
Training is THE answer
I am of the firm belief [ read,you cant change my mind ] that if you train to shoot and do it with the mind set that you will NOT turn from the threat and do what is needed,you have the best chance with a firearm AND bearspray.
I have been shot at and did not turn my back,I cannot shoot very well over my shoulder!.
If there is the remotest chance that the bear spray will work [ I have used it on the streets - it works REAL well on people ] then I will not shoot as it's most likely out of season and shooting a bear in S/D is a big deal to the DEC.
I carry a Ruger super blk hawk that was cut to 4 3/4" barrel with blackhawk grips,in a El Paso chest rig.
AND yes I carry a rifle or shotgun [ slugs ] but there are many times I will leave the gun and be a few feet to a dozen yards from it.
I am not interested in a 'man' test to see who has THE opinion here.
Just sharing my beliefs and practices.
I am of the firm belief [ read,you cant change my mind ] that if you train to shoot and do it with the mind set that you will NOT turn from the threat and do what is needed,you have the best chance with a firearm AND bearspray.
I have been shot at and did not turn my back,I cannot shoot very well over my shoulder!.
If there is the remotest chance that the bear spray will work [ I have used it on the streets - it works REAL well on people ] then I will not shoot as it's most likely out of season and shooting a bear in S/D is a big deal to the DEC.
I carry a Ruger super blk hawk that was cut to 4 3/4" barrel with blackhawk grips,in a El Paso chest rig.
AND yes I carry a rifle or shotgun [ slugs ] but there are many times I will leave the gun and be a few feet to a dozen yards from it.
I am not interested in a 'man' test to see who has THE opinion here.
Just sharing my beliefs and practices.
I've come to the conclusion after a lifetime in the wilds of the western lower 48, some in British Columbia and on a bear research project in N. Idaho that many people are way too eager to carry only a gun for protection against bears.
The idea that one must be anti-gun if he carries spray is non-sense. The idea that one must have a high degree of respect and regard for the life of a bear in order to carry spray is perhaps not far from the truth.
I don't think most people want to kill a bear unless of course they are hunting bears.
I believe spray is effective and in many ways more effective on preventing injury from bear attacks.
Having said this, when I am in bear country I carry a can of spray up close and readily available and an extra can in my pack. I also carry a .44 revolver as last resort.
I hope I never have to use either.
The idea that one must be anti-gun if he carries spray is non-sense. The idea that one must have a high degree of respect and regard for the life of a bear in order to carry spray is perhaps not far from the truth.
I don't think most people want to kill a bear unless of course they are hunting bears.
I believe spray is effective and in many ways more effective on preventing injury from bear attacks.
Having said this, when I am in bear country I carry a can of spray up close and readily available and an extra can in my pack. I also carry a .44 revolver as last resort.
I hope I never have to use either.
Spaceman Spiff
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Redneck with a 40
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As they always say......save the last round for yourself. I'd much rather carry an 870 12 gauge, 3 rounds of slugs to hit the bear at a distance and 3 rounds of buckshot if the bear gets in close. At the very least, a buckshot round to the face will blind the bear.
The wildlife troopers in Alaska carry 870's with slugs out in the bush.
The wildlife troopers in Alaska carry 870's with slugs out in the bush.
scaatylobo
Member
REDNECK w/ 40
I totally agree.
BUT if'n your bout to exit the outhouse or squatting in the woods,the handgun is an option if the bear spray dont cut it.
I go with the 870 also,as that is a great tool for most problems in life.of this nature !.
I totally agree.
BUT if'n your bout to exit the outhouse or squatting in the woods,the handgun is an option if the bear spray dont cut it.
I go with the 870 also,as that is a great tool for most problems in life.of this nature !.
Loosedhorse
member
Well, let's see:
1) Only a CNS hit will dependably stop a bear charge; but maybe pepper spray will, and maybe a non-CNS hit with a "big enough" caliber (which might be as small as a .44 Magnum, as big a a 12 gauge slug, or maybe some .35-.45 rifle caliber).
2) You won't have time to shoot the bear anyway, because his charge will surprise you and unslinging a long gun or unholstering a handgun takes too long. Pepper spray may be faster for some reason?
3) People in general don't have the required skill to defend themselves from bear attack with a firearm. Pepper spray apparently takes less skill. So maybe you should carry pepper spray and NOT a firearm (even though I carry a firearm and so do the uniformed guys with badges).
4) Long guns (particularly 12 gauge shotguns) are preferred rather than handguns. Perhaps because shotguns launch a bigger slug (even though some handguns launch 1-oz slugs at 1300+ fps) and they are easier to aim at a quickly moving target at close range. Not sure if this takes into account that a handgun might be quicker to deploy. But pepper spray might be better than either.
5) Alaskan "wildlife troopers" apparently carry slung shotguns any time they head into the wild on foot, indicating that so should Alaskan fishermen and hikers. Unless they carry pepper spray.
I think I've got it now...
1) Only a CNS hit will dependably stop a bear charge; but maybe pepper spray will, and maybe a non-CNS hit with a "big enough" caliber (which might be as small as a .44 Magnum, as big a a 12 gauge slug, or maybe some .35-.45 rifle caliber).
2) You won't have time to shoot the bear anyway, because his charge will surprise you and unslinging a long gun or unholstering a handgun takes too long. Pepper spray may be faster for some reason?
3) People in general don't have the required skill to defend themselves from bear attack with a firearm. Pepper spray apparently takes less skill. So maybe you should carry pepper spray and NOT a firearm (even though I carry a firearm and so do the uniformed guys with badges).
4) Long guns (particularly 12 gauge shotguns) are preferred rather than handguns. Perhaps because shotguns launch a bigger slug (even though some handguns launch 1-oz slugs at 1300+ fps) and they are easier to aim at a quickly moving target at close range. Not sure if this takes into account that a handgun might be quicker to deploy. But pepper spray might be better than either.
5) Alaskan "wildlife troopers" apparently carry slung shotguns any time they head into the wild on foot, indicating that so should Alaskan fishermen and hikers. Unless they carry pepper spray.
I think I've got it now...
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Yep Loosed, you got it down now!
To help address your confusion on one part, the reason MOST people would be better served by a shotgun/long gun of some sort verses a handgun is aiming. The site line on a long gun, to put it simply, lends to better aim for the most part. Honestly, most people aren't like some of us who have had a handgun in their hands for the better part of 40 years and practicing with one every other day. Most people don't put thousands of rounds downrange every year. Some in here, Kodiakbeer being the leader of this, has opened my eyes to this. I used to be a strong proponent for the carrying of a large bore handgun for Brown Bear defense. Simply because of my own experiences with bruins in the wild. They showed me that most people aren't as skilled or as confident as I am with a handgun.
As far as Bear Spray is concerned. It has it's uses and CAN be quite effective. But swirling wind can be just as big of a threat as that 1000 pound ball of pissed off. 99% of the time, if you have come across a bruin in the wild, that bruin will be making tracks to another county. As Kodiak stated, most every time is a surprise encounter up close. The sow that I had to put down, we had crossed paths and she had cubs. No amount of yelling and screaming would have turned her, and the wind was about 20mph right in my face so spray would have done nothing except season my face for the mauling. Part of the reason we crossed paths was because of the wind direction. Had she scented me, they would never have come across me. Hence why Bear Spray, a LOT of times would be rendered useless. Most of your bruin encounters will be with the wind in YOUR face which is why you surprised the bruin in the first place. Simple logic.
To help address your confusion on one part, the reason MOST people would be better served by a shotgun/long gun of some sort verses a handgun is aiming. The site line on a long gun, to put it simply, lends to better aim for the most part. Honestly, most people aren't like some of us who have had a handgun in their hands for the better part of 40 years and practicing with one every other day. Most people don't put thousands of rounds downrange every year. Some in here, Kodiakbeer being the leader of this, has opened my eyes to this. I used to be a strong proponent for the carrying of a large bore handgun for Brown Bear defense. Simply because of my own experiences with bruins in the wild. They showed me that most people aren't as skilled or as confident as I am with a handgun.
As far as Bear Spray is concerned. It has it's uses and CAN be quite effective. But swirling wind can be just as big of a threat as that 1000 pound ball of pissed off. 99% of the time, if you have come across a bruin in the wild, that bruin will be making tracks to another county. As Kodiak stated, most every time is a surprise encounter up close. The sow that I had to put down, we had crossed paths and she had cubs. No amount of yelling and screaming would have turned her, and the wind was about 20mph right in my face so spray would have done nothing except season my face for the mauling. Part of the reason we crossed paths was because of the wind direction. Had she scented me, they would never have come across me. Hence why Bear Spray, a LOT of times would be rendered useless. Most of your bruin encounters will be with the wind in YOUR face which is why you surprised the bruin in the first place. Simple logic.
Hocka Louis
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Don't get me wrong, backpacking on the tundra where I had some visibility my big bear-spray would be in a holster on my pack belt strap.
KodiakBeer
member
Bear spray is a no-brainer.
90% of the time (or more), the scary encounter is a bear just suddenly standing up surprised on the side of the trail, or perhaps puffing up and making aggressive movements. It's almost certainly not going to attack, but why take the chance? And why shoot if it means you have to skin and pack out 200 pounds of head and hide and then get anally probed by the F&G people? Just blast him with pepper spray.
Weirdly though, even though I've almost always carrying pepper spray I've never had opportunity to use it. Mostly because I'm not willing to drop my shotgun to employ the spray. I just talk nice and back away.
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90% of the time (or more), the scary encounter is a bear just suddenly standing up surprised on the side of the trail, or perhaps puffing up and making aggressive movements. It's almost certainly not going to attack, but why take the chance? And why shoot if it means you have to skin and pack out 200 pounds of head and hide and then get anally probed by the F&G people? Just blast him with pepper spray.
Weirdly though, even though I've almost always carrying pepper spray I've never had opportunity to use it. Mostly because I'm not willing to drop my shotgun to employ the spray.
I just talk nice and back away..
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