Is a second American Revolution impossible?

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My thesis:
Revolt, Rebellion and Revolution. Call it what you will, depends on several factors but ultimately on an unmeasurable "sense" of empowerment, or more accurately, the lack of empowerment.
In turn, the level at which empowerment is felt can be affected by any number of sources. But generally fall under the two freedom axis:

Economic Freedom:
supporting family finances
possibility for advancement in society
comparison to others in society [econ oppression based on some social distinction: race, religion, politics]​

Social Freedom:
Religion
Politics
Morals
Speech​

So then oppression in one of these broad categories, and particularly selective oppression in one of these broad categories sets up the "Us vs Them" mentality. A pre-requisite of a fight.

My historical examples of revolution, rebellion, and revolt:
1.) The Crown, and the Wealthy's oppression of the barely middle class American Colony in Economic ways. They caused finiancial ruin for all, then heaped taxes upon them and East India Tea to help buy thier way out of debt and ruin. It set up a very nice "Us vs Them" mentality.
The empowerment ingredient is the nitric acid to the bitter but stable glycerin. The Colonies had no means to defend themselves back in the ruling circles, they had no representatives; and no means to petition the government. They were shut out of the power while being oppressed. The Colonies pleaded for Parliament or the King to listen, they were given no quarter. The rest is history.

2.) The North began to develope the wealthy industrial base while the poorer South continued with agricultural cash crops. The North then began to take a moral high ground to slavery. They had already won a battle siding with England and closed the slave trade soon after the ratification of the Const. It was becoming increasing clear that the North wanted nothing less than complete abolition of slavery. The Tyranny of the Majority was telling the South what was right and wrong, morally. While the results would hurt the very wealthy right in the pocket book. The South vs the North, Us vs Them. When Lincoln was elected, it was the final ingredient; the South had lost the power to control its destiny. The rest is history.

So then...
Whos the Us vs Them?
Us liberal minded folks vs the socialist minded folks? Hardly, there is a bit of both on both sides.
Poor vs Middle vs Rich? As other point out our poor aren't exactly starving to death, and middle class wealth is not out of reach for any who would reach out with self discipline, control, determination, work, and minor abilities.
Rural vs Urban? a little, but nationalism is stronger.

The cards don't seem to hold a strong hand for revolution based on such ideological principles alone.

There are only a few Us vs Them situations I can identify:
1. Whites vs Mexican vs Blacks; the asians seem to be able to stay out of the fight.

The vast majority of whites dont even want to appear racially biased, let alone be labeled a racist, they/we are particularly sensitive to White-Black relations. (But maybe I'm projecting :rolleyes: )

White-Mexican relations are much more strained, but more about illegal immigration than anything else. Plus Whites dont feel as constrained with Mexican sensativeties sense there isn't nearly as much bad history (though there definately is some if somebody wanted to dig it up).

I know nothing about Black-Mexican relations, so I will remain silent on this topic. Except, neither group has enough current politcal power to establish oppression of the other.

Much work is performed to remove even the apprearance of oppression on Blacks and Mexicans. In my experience and statistics, many in both groups are working thier collective way up to middle class. As long as this trend continues, all should be well.

2. Muslims vs the rest of the world; this looms much larger to me, and it ought to be pretty obvious to everyone here, despite the "multicultural" political correctness.

Muslim and other American relations depend on whether they identify with the various oppressions in other regions/nations, or identify as Americans with economic opportunity and social choice to be Muslim. On the flip side, the rest of America needs to feel safe/non-threatened with our Muslim population.
Both of these propositions seem tenous. :(

Now the about the question of empowerment. Most americans have a collective sense that if we raised up and decided on more classical liberal ideas (or not) with fresh faces in Washington and other Capitols, we could easily vote in the new power. Reckon to the Reagan Revolution, the '94 Contract, and '04 Reinforcement, and the '06 Rebuttal. Again, no ideological struggle here folks; cause if we wanted to, we could vote it in.

I already covered empowerment for race relations in the above paragraph.

Do most Americans feel they have a voice in maintaining workable relations with our Muslims, to feel non-threatened? Yes.
Do most Muslims feel they have a say in the way they live and part in how they are governed? For now, it seems yes.

We look internally stable to me.

Find me an Us vs Them, and an empowerment issue then I might consider the building of revolution and violence.


Drew
 
while I didn't write this, it is by far the best explanation of the cause of the Civil War I've seen yet. It was written by XXX on themuzzleloadingforum.


In the debates leading to the 1787 Constitution and the early American Republic, 2 distinct political camps emerged, the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. Today we would call them all Republicans, (for lack of a closer modern example).The Federalists argued for a strong central government and no Bill of Rights, While the Anti-Feds insisted on a Bill of Rights out of a fear of encroaching federal power. The Federalists were opposed to a B.O.R. on the grounds that the Federal government is only delegated the powers specifically allocated to it in the body of the Constitution and could not possibly assume powers for itself that were not stated there. Who do you suppose was right about that one? Many of the early framers such as Jefferson were pleased with the outcome despite the compromises, but still presumed this republic would last only 80 years or so. It was just the nature of all government to creep toward tyranny.

As time passed, the Southern states became one of the last bastions of Anti-Federalist sentiment while the Northern states embraced every whim of the moment philosophy that came along after the Age of Reason ended. Many of these philosopies such as German Marxism were clearly incompatable with the Natural Rights of Man and limited constitutional republicanism which are the foundations of the American political system.
As the decades of the 19th century passed, the political trends in the Northern states increasingly catered to this trend and the more conservative Southern states became increasingly uncomfortable with it and came to view the agreement of 1787 as compromised and beyond salvage.
A drive for Southern independence was likely on this basis even without chattel slavery, but since abolition was one of the pet causes of the collectivist philosophy camp, this became the main source of estrangement between Northern and Southern citizens. What really gave the issue legs was not so much the ending of the institution as it was the Abolitionist idea that the entire Southern way of life had to be destroyed in order to achieve the goal. To Southerners, the idea that thier own countrymen would advocate for thier political and literal physical destruction at the hands of an alien race, (African slave uprisings as in Haiti c.1804) was unacceptable.The John Brown Raid on Harper's Ferry drove this home. The simple answer, based upon the model of 1776 was Independence. The Confederate States Voted freely and peacefully in thier individual state legislatures to leave and form a new government. They wrote and adopted thier own Constitution, which was nearly identical to the 1787 US version without the obvious, (to an Anti-Federalist) flaws, and left the "Union", Whatever that was. This is how the American Republic died. 1787 -1861 RIP. We have been living in an increasingly unpleasent democracy since that year.

The mistake they made of course was shelling Ft. Sumter. This act of voilence was the excuse our first elected dictator, Abe Lincoln, needed in order to justify supressing a "rebellion", which was laughable on its face since the CS were not trying to overthrow the US Government, they were trying to leave it. The popular name and excuses for this greatest of national tragedies are simply the unchecked propaganda lies of the victors. Feed them to public school inmates for 140 years and no one will question them.
 
I see it starting with an assassination. Probably her highness gets elected, they pass a gun ban, and someone decides the line has been crossed. It's possible, though I'll refrain from betting on how long a dem admin will be in power before it happens.

After the shooting, they try going even further. Some critters balk, some becuase they know it's wrong, some because of death threats, and the knowlegde that there are people that can and will do it. That starts a chain. The next couple of shootings deal the final blow. Either they back down(at least for a while), or they go full steam ahead. When they beat down the door to granny's place to get the Mauser grandpa brought back from the war, there's the us versus them. When the people realize that it's not just the nuts with the machine guns they're after, it riles everybody up. We won't see Waco again, we'll see a bunch of Ruby Ridges in our back yards. The next time a politico gets shot, they'll never catch the shooter. The next election will either be so obviously rigged that it'll set off the keg, or it'll be a return to sanity for a while.

Of course, you also have to add in the economic effects of the assasination. Shooting the president will do bad things to the stock market. More bad things with later shootings. Wall Street might as well put up the "for sale" sign at that point.
 
The nifty thing is that while a population remains armed and capable of defending themselves against a corrupt government, the government seems far less likely to turn on its citizens. When citizens become defenseless is when they will most likely truly need arms.

SOYBOMB +1

I have this concern; 'forced grouping' on the part of some clever persons has shadowed what unity citizens have. It is very possible that a power hungry entity could simply redirect the revolutionary sentiments/forces/emotion, into a direction that served their own purposes. They are already on it. They are alert to the possibility. They want citizens to destabilize America, and turn on each other. As much as I hate leftists and hard core Sheehan/Pelosi/Clintonites, to fight them, to hate them, is exactly what someone out there wants. As long as we are divided we are weaker as a citizenry.
We must convince them that taking our arms is a mistake that hurts us all, that destroys the fabric of America. It erases the most important check in the system of checks and balances.
Lastly, there is NO country that is immune to revolution, at this time. But peer into the future; imagine a world with high technology tracking of all products and services, imagine cars controlled from a central operation HQ, food produced in large corporate centers, arms erased from society, military dominance from land, sea, air, and space. Weapons we cannot imagine in the field of mental disruption, energy/particle weapons, viruses....total control of media and educational programs.
This is a possible future, in fact, it's quite probable.
And do we all assume that controlling power will necessarily be the United States?

ST
 
1. I disagree with some of what the author said. Violent revolutions are hardly ever mass uprising of a vast majority of the population. They are usually lead and actively supported by a minority of the poulace. The majority may say or think they support them, but do not do anything active.
2. As someone who has lived in the Middle East and Europe, I can positively say that most US citizens do not realize how good we have it and how relatively low our level of governmental corruption is. Most of our welfare recepients live as well as (if not better than) the midlle class in most of the world.
3. As long as the majority receive their bread and circuses, there will not be a violent revolution. By bread, I mean money in the form of government checks and pay checks. By circuses, I mean television and other forms of entertainment.
4. Part of the reason the USA has not seen more violent uprisings is because pople on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder have had a visible way out. The times we have had these uprisings were generally where their ability was threatened or denied. An example is the race riots from the 1960s.
 
The Kelo ruling is the kind of thing that will bring about armed revolt. Go around taking Americans property for too long and you'll get a face full of bullets.

Or there's the slow way: keep raising property taxes to pay for the welfare state until productive people can no longer afford to be in their own "owned" homes.

I figure the repeal of Prop. XIII will trigger whatever "insurrection" is coming.
 
I do not see a popular uprising happening in this country unless the government does something supremely stupid that is an offence to everyone. (The new eminent domain thing is close I think which is why so many states are passing laws saying that they won't do it.) The people who care about the issues like gun control and abortion and legalized drugs and whatever else the infringements on our freedoms are, are too spread out to do anything about it.

Sure if a bunch of us moved into say Montana or what have you we could set up a real nice state. But we won’t. Why? economic reasons, social reasons, familial reasons etc. all the things that are going to keep the "sheep" from getting too upset even when whatever it is sparks off whatever kind of civil unrest we get.

And even if we the people got all hot and bothered over something and started marching down Pennsylvania Av. in DC. How many Secret Service guys do you think would even hesitate to open up on a large group of armed people heading for the president's house? Or Marines, Army, and Air Force whatever these guys are not going to hesitate.
Whatever happens (if it happens) it will be a blood bath if it’s a popular uprising of any sort.

-DR
 
And even if we the people got all hot and bothered over something and started marching down Pennsylvania Av. in DC. How many Secret Service guys do you think would even hesitate to open up on a large group of armed people heading for the president's house? Or Marines, Army, and Air Force whatever these guys are not going to hesitate.
Whatever happens (if it happens) it will be a blood bath if it’s a popular uprising of any sort.
Just a few shots at Kent State got several folks pretty revved up a few decades ago.
 
During the height of Vietnam DC protests there were times the secret service was just a little jumpy about the crowd getting out of control and doing bad things to the whitehouse. One report I saw a decade later said there was a company of Marines on, under, and around the WH prepared to protect the president.
 
Though I May Never Need Or Want To Arm Myself...

Though I may never need a lawyer, I refuse to relinquish our enumerated right in the Sixth Amendment to obtain one.

Though I may never expect to commit a crime or own property, I will not allow the loss of due process enumerated in the Fifth Amendment.

Though I have nothing to hide nor much to lose, I will not relinquish our personal sovereignty as guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment.

Though I don't expect to have troops quartered in my home this day and age, I refuse to forgo the protections of the Third Amendment.

Though I may never speak out, pray, or join a protest march, I refuse to relinquish our rights and freedoms to do so as enumerated in the First Amendment.

Why, then, are we expected to allow infringements and debilitating shackles to be foisted upon the one and only right we have that protects our power to preserve all that we have?


What are you willing to part with?

Woody

You can live free holding the stock and possibly never have to pull the trigger, or you can try to live free at the muzzle. I prefer to hold the stock and live free. Those at the muzzle never seem to fare quite so well. B.E.Wood
 
Older, Younger, Wise ones,
You are on a list now if you where not before. I read your post as it is most promising to have valid substance.
I agree with your points in rejecting the whole of the congress over a period of time. I think that is missing a component that cannot be bypassed. Unions and Lobbiest.
I think a full turnover or rejection of every professional or business lobby and elective trade org should be rejected or ejected from the legislative process.
I do not agree with a business "club" calling the shots for a state or fed legislator. I have seen this personally in a state .nd did a part in seeing him retired. (IN state senate Pre Pro Tempore booted in the primary)
I am appalled at how the teachers union and uaw and teamsters call the votes instead of promoting the investigation of those in office and those running against them. I feel it is most immoral how people accept and follow such direction.
 
Revolt, Rebellion or Revolution. i do not see them as possible. I do see a possibility of "violent reform"? When you take too much from any person, and he decides it is too much? Maybe the Kelo thing over imminent domain taking your house. Maybe a charge of child abuse, seperating you and your family. Maybe a 2A infringement of your rights. Maybe an OSHA, or a "wetlands preservation act", bankrupting you. Maybe a minimum wage law, or a requirement for health and retirement programs closes or bankrupts your small business?

When enough people get pushed past their limits, and feel they have nothing left to lose, they may commit suicide. Or they may decide to make the politician, legislator, judge, or beaurocrat that they see as "most responsible" pay for their loss. How many senators, congressmen, city council members, OSHA executives, BATFE officers, or local police will have to die before anyone pays any attention.

If you have not yet, you should read John Ross's book, "Unintended Consequences". It would be great to have a "Henry Bowman" to lead us, but I think this "reform" will happen without him, someday. It will be a long drawn out process. Our "soap box" seems inadequate. Our "ballot box" sometimes seems inadequate. Our "cartridge box" will be an individual thing, if/when the time comes for each of us. And we will die, and be demonised, alone.
 
I imagine several people in Nazi Germany would have had no doubt who to train their rifle sights on for example
Doubt it, for even though Hitler is the evil personified in the history books, the government at the time was filled with people similar or worse. Most atrocities were designed by advisors to him in similar positions of power (that would have simply replaced him). Personalizing a widespread wrongdoing into one individual or group (like the Nazis) allows others to detach themselves from personal involvement or responsibility and move on pretending it was 'those evil men' and not themselves that took part. German history is not even legal in Germany for this reason. The history books sorta just skip over the whole time period of WW2. They actualy have laws banning anything remotely referencing the nazis or thier symbols.


Basicly my point being that the average German citizen supported thier government because it was the government, to do otherwise was to be a traitor (or terrorist) and the government was acting for the benefit of the majority or so thier propoganda told them. The territorial expansion took back portions of land taken from them in WW1 and previously in wars in the 1800's (prior to which Germany was a bunch of tribes united under Prussian rulers.)
So a very legitimate argument could be given to people desiring to be proud of thier heritage and the country they lived in, if for no other reason than it was thier own.
Every action done by the Nazi government was allowed by the German people because it was done for their safety, and thier benefit. The government never publicized concentration camps or any of the wrongs we associate with the them now. If such rumors did exist they would likely have been dismissed as conspiracy theories created by the Jews who were upset at being relocated.

Every step done by the Nazi government was rational as presented to the people of Germany. From thier disarmament for thier safety, to trusting in militarized police and not interfering with them doing thier duty protecting good German citizens. The actions taken by the Nazis actualy did dramaticly increase the quality of life for the majority of the citizens not of a persecuted minority, after all they were suffering from the same depression America went through prior to the Nazis coming to power. So dramatic improvement would be obvious and associated with the government in place during that time. So to the average citizen busy with thier own life it would appear Nazi policy was for thier best interest. (until Allies started dropping bombs on them)

So no, revolution would not have been a choice of action taken or supported by most German citizens, and no single target could have been killed to effectively end the rule of the Nazis. Nazi policies were implemented slowly, and they were supported by the majority of the population. History is always painted in far more extreme absolutes with 20/20 hindsight than existed at the time.
 
However, many Germans after the war stated that during the reign of Hitler and his Nazi Party, they were terrified of their own government, i.e., to speak out against it publicly meant they were subject to investigation by the central government's enforcement arm, not to mention possible arrest and torture without right to counsel. Wait a minute, was I talking about Nazi Germany or present day America? :confused:
 
Distinct Concepts

  • Incident (a riot or stand-off is not a revolution).
  • Failed revolution
  • Successful revolution -- but that makes things worse.
  • Successful revolution -- and that makes things better.
Likelihood decreases down the list with the last being almost impossible. It was a near miracle that 1776 both succeeded and made things better.

Revolution is fools gold.

Best we work to simultaniously save our liberties and avoid revolution because no matter how much we wish it, most times, liberty and revolution are enemies of each other. "Liberté, égalité, fraternité -- chop off everyone's head!"
 
Likelihood decreases down the list with the last being almost impossible. It was a near miracle that 1776 both succeeded and made things better.

Revolution is fools gold.

Best we work to simultaniously save our liberties and avoid revolution because no matter how much we wish it, most times, liberty and revolution are enemies of each other. "Liberté, égalité, fraternité -- chop off everyone's head!"
Absolutely agreed. The only chance, I think, would be for a Molon labe scenario, leading ultimately to secession from the present union of the States.
 
We're too civilized for civil war or a friendly neighborhood revolt. "We" meaning the vast, vast majority of americans. There are small proponents that I could see making 'trouble', but they would not get far.

Mandatory RFID chips, Gov'mnt cameras in every home, the lot.
We'll sit and take it like the comfortable, ball-less chumps we are..
 
Mandatory RFID chips, Gov'mnt cameras in every home, the lot.
We'll sit and take it like the comfortable, ball-less chumps we are..
We'd have to suppress the memory of a lot of our Founding history to do that, I think. That's a lot of history to flush down the memory hole. It would take a "cultural revolution" before a large enough percentage would sit back and passively allow those things to happen. If even a couple of percent of Americans decided that such things were worth fighting against, the government would be forced to back down, which is why I predict such things will never happen, but then twenty years ago I would have said the same thing about government approved torturing of suspects and the like, so what do I know.
 
Absolutely agreed. The only chance, I think, would be for a Molon labe scenario, leading ultimately to secession from the present union of the States.

+1 Exactly the scenariio I've advanced many times. There is definitely a quorum for the "old values." We need to ensure that we don't get swamped.
 
The Kelo ruling is the kind of thing that will bring about armed revolt. Go around taking Americans property for too long and you'll get a face full of bullets.
Big time. Pick your party, the middle class is taking on water. Both with what they see with breakdown of the family and money/politics.
What happens when the upper middle class(and the smart money people of the middle middle class) start letting go of the carousel?

I do think revolutions are needed. Like wildfires, they clean and recycle. Nobody in thier right mind wants it happening on thier dime and time......but then I dont want my children to be slaves either....
What will start it? God knows but Kelo was huge. If the states did not react the wat they did......it might have been the one.

The Baby boomers are only turning 60 this year......more passivist socialism to come.

It all comes down to state vs federal and how this current crop of americas view thier govt.
 
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The impetus for change may well be external. I believe The Euphoria is about to come to an end. America is not living in a vacuum; other countries are going to interrupt the compound interest dreams of the Baby Boomers. Anyone extrapolating current trends 25 years into the future is deluding himself.
 
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