It's Time For A Revolution within the GOP

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I think its amazing (and a sad sign of the times) that whenever libertarism is mentioned...people run off on the drug issue. mean while individual liberty and less Govt are never fought for.

jfruser your comments "messy reality of D vs R politics on the ground." What exactly is the messy reality.....that both parties are socialism and socialism-lite???? Hows that workin out for ya?? Which party is for slowing down the federal Govt again?? :rolleyes:
 
Want To Talk Libertarian?

Next time a situation presents itself..talk to a long haul truck driver. These men and women move America's goods..they are the oxygen traveling the Interstate Veins of the Good Old USA.

THEIR concerns and observations have proven very educational to me. From governmental regulations to the cost of running their rigs...they have first hand, front line war stories that we can all learn from.

There are many on this thread who know a Hell of a lot more than I do on the subject, and I read every post. I'm an Independent..having decided 2 years ago Big Politics is just that.. and am seriously considering the LP.

Take Care
 
Almost there...

I was with you through the "It's time for a revolution" part... then the "GOP" part lost me..

I've wasted enough elections voting for those poseurs and carrying an RNC card. They have a great platform; too bad none of them read it once elected.

I will vote L from now on, and at very least be held blameless for the shambles the country is becoming. My conscience is more important than the privilege of being an apologist.

Yeah, I grew tired of being an apologist for every elected RINO who thinks that slowing the American Ride into Communism by 2mph is "being a conservative".
 
I think its amazing (and a sad sign of the times) that whenever libertarism is mentioned...people run off on the drug issue. mean while individual liberty and less Govt are never fought for.

jfruser your comments "messy reality of D vs R politics on the ground." What exactly is the messy reality.....that both parties are socialism and socialism-lite???? Hows that workin out for ya?? Which party is for slowing down the federal Govt again??
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I think it's amazing to see the evolution of a brand new Libertarian. Much in the same way that a reformed alcoholic is virulently anti-alcohol, so is the new Libertarian at having his 'eyes opened' to the detriments of the two-party system.

Go here. Open your mind.
 
xd9fan said:
jfruser your comments "messy reality of D vs R politics on the ground." What exactly is the messy reality.....that both parties are socialism and socialism-lite???? Hows that workin out for ya?? Which party is for slowing down the federal Govt again??
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I would suggest a bit of research on your part. Check out Pete Sessions' and Ron Pauls' records. They are Republicans who might, if you look at their records, be mistaken for big "L" libertarians...with the exception that they both have actually been elected to the US Congress. That's something the Ls don't know much about. Again, how many Ls in the US Congress? How much can the LP effect legislative goals in line with the US Constitution with those nonexistent congresscritters?

The messy reality is that the D & R parties are broad coalitions. Just as the Ds contend with Rs, coalition members within the individual parties vie for power, control, and nominations. If you pick up your toys and go home, you have just left the party in control of the statists and less liberty-loving types in the coalition. It takes effort and time and will to make it happen. Folks like myself have to work harder in your absence.

Pete Sessions is my Congressman, due (in part) to my efforts and the efforts of those who think like me...folks who want a candidate that respects liberty and especially the US Constitution. We did not want a Texas version of Lincoln Chaffee, RINO. Is Pete Sessions perfect? Nope. But he is pretty darn good on the issues. Better than nearly all other R congressmen...and better than the nonexistent L congressmen, who could not be found for comment.

This sort of work at change in the cause of the principles embodied in the US Constituiton is not ideologically pure. It appeals more to folks who understand the imperfect nature of man and his creations. If your institutions must be ideologically pure, I would direct you to your nearest orthodox church or religion. You can find perfection of doctrine there (according to their lights). You won't find perfection or purity in any political organization that has a record of success.
 
I am opposed to Federal Prohibition of drugs for the same reasons Federal Prohibition of Alcohol was bad. Throw on top of that Federal Drug Prohibition is clearly unconstitutional. At least the alcohol Prohibitionists got an amendment to the Constitution to authorize their activities.

As for open boarders, I disagree with the LP on that one. As someone commented, the human body has a skin around it for a reason. The national body needs one too.
 
xd9fan wrote:
I think its amazing (and a sad sign of the times) that whenever libertarism is mentioned...people run off on the drug issue. mean while individual liberty and less Govt are never fought for.
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There really is no other issue that highlights government abuse of individual liberty as well as the WOD. Some of the most recent blatantly unconstitutional actions by the government have taken place in the name of fighting the WOD. Knowing this I would find it sad and amazing if people didn't bring up drugs while discussing liberty and the need for small government.

Waitone wrote:
That said, as much as I question the advisability of the so-called war on drugs, the option of legalizing drugs is not realistic.
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It's much more realistic than the option of trying to prohibit people from using drugs. Look at the two most popular drugs, alcohol and marijuana. Which method works better? Ask a highschool kid which drug is easier to buy. Ever see any gang members on a corner selling beer? Ever hear about rival alcohol companies doing drive by shootings? Not since we ended prohibition and brought the alcohol market back out in the open to be regulated and run by law abiding citizens instead of criminals.
 
M-Rex....thanks for the link....the guy sounds like a wing-nut. Hell maybe I sound like a wing nut. Mock if you want....But I am recovering for the Big Govt 2 party drug!! Given the current set of problems..... where should a less Govt pro free market, individual liberty guy go?

jfruser your comments are serioulsy well taken......I have struggled with the idea of should I stay on the Titannic and keep rearranging the chiars or do I just get off and seek a new ship. Both choices have their problems both have thier positives. Do I agree with every Libertarian...NO.

You made a comment about since I left you have to work harder in the GOP.......that is what should happen. Even Politics is subject to the free market. What I mean by that is..if a party or company is turning off possible consumers/voters.....The company will have to work harder to regain trust. Its like school vouchers. Do I stay with the crappy school or do I move on and find a better place (for me). Sure the track record sucks for the LP.....But there is a core principle that I believe.....and maybe the FF's dont share that core belief...but I have yet to find any comments by the FF's that increased Fed Govt is awesome, Less Individual Liberty is the goal. How we get their, the making drugs legal crap, the will-I-now-have-to-wear-a-black tee-shirt-with-dragons-on-it crap, I dont care. I want a party that is about less Govt and Pro Individual Liberty.. ..IMHO Democrats and republicians are to busy fighting each other to increase the Fed Govt (for you) that they forget to stop look around a see the common hard working american....and an even bigger problem is that the common man does not care about their individaul liberty......this part kills me even more. My first taste of the 'Fall of Rome' was reading Jeff Snyders "Nation of Cowards". I love that book but I hate it because it slapped me in the face about just how far this country has drifted off course. I'm 35 year old....I have nothing to bitch about compared to any other generation of this great nation. (maybe thats the problem) I have never really felt sad for this nation till I read that book(in my twenties I would have laughed my a$$ off about feeling sad for a nation......maybe its about having kids)............But It did give a ray of hope.....

"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Govt, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." D of I

I guess I am following Synder's advice...which is to study the D of I, the Constitution, to talk with others, explore options, get active via the founding Documents. Am I having my own D of I with the Republicians...yes. but what else is there?? The Democrats are a party that will fail in my life time. I just dont see how that party will ever recover.....oh wait.....I do.....see I keep thinking that most americians "get it" that they see socialism as bad. on second thought I dont think they have a clue (education....lack their of)

ok I need sleep I'm ranting
 
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Close, but not quite. When was the last time the IRS mistakingly raided the wrong house and killed the owner in the process?
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When was the last time my middle-aged mother took a hit off of a bong?

Hint: Never

Everyone pays taxes. Not everyone partakes in recreational drugs.
 
M-Rex....thanks for the link....the guy sounds like a wing-nut. Hell maybe I sound like a wing nut. Mock if you want....But I am recovering for the Big Govt 2 party drug!! Given the current set of problems..... where should a less Govt pro free market, individual liberty guy go?????
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Whether you agree with it or not, at least read it. I'm with you, man. I really am. The system isn't perfect, but I don't think the "Libertarian Party" is the fix.

Libertarian (small L) ideas, I'm all for. I can understand your frustration. However, I personally believe that Libertarians (large L) and the Libertarian Party are a bunch of kook anarchists (read as Ted Kaczinski/militia nuts) that believe that if only the government would go away, everything would be happiness and fluffy love. 'Anything goes' does not a country make. You think Serenity is a 'Libertarian' movie? Try 'The Road Warrior'. It simply isn't realistic. Furthermore, I'd really like to see the libertarian thinking folks (small L) start exerting their influence in the Republican party. The GOP needs a good old fashioned shot of conservativism right in its collective behind. I think they'd be much more effective doing that, rather than forming another splinter party that has absolutely no hopes of ever being taken seriously.

We need to hang together, or most certainly we'll hang separately.
 
However, I personally believe that Libertarians (large L) and the Libertarian Party are a bunch of kook anarchists (read as Ted Kaczinski/militia nuts) that believe that if only the government would go away, everything would be happiness and fluffy love. 'Anything goes' does not a country make.
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Awesome.
 
If either candidate that has a chance to win is also worth voting for, I will vote for them. To that effect I voted to retain A rated Ginny Brown-Waite as representative and voted for Mel Martinez for senate. Both small advances towards a pro-gun super-marjority in both houses. Next year we go for Bill "deadly assault weapons" Nelson.

But I am not going to stand under the elephant's colon and pull his tail just because the donkey smells slightly worse today. When both major party candidates for an elected office make me throw up in my mouth, it is time for me to waste my vote in a third party candidate. So yeah, I voted for Badnarik.

Honestly as long as there are anti-gunners and big-spenders that I can help eject from office, I have my work cut out for me and am not going to really worry about what party the candidate is affiliated with. The idea is to just keep beating the liberty and fiscal restraint drums until the natives start to dance to the beat.

I think the War on Drugs will die out naturally, but not until the societal problems it "fixes" go away. Wars are not fought against things, they are fought against people. Fix the people being targeted by the war on drugs and you will end the war.
 
Libertarians:

Closed borders
Open immigration
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Which I agree with, but only in the context of "NO FRICKEN HANDOUTS." Which is something the Libertarians neglect to mention in their thirst for controversy.

I think that we need to work on the govt handouts part of the problem long before we mention the immigration bit.
 
Close, but not quite. When was the last time the IRS mistakingly raided the wrong house and killed the owner in the process?
Click to expand...


When was the last time my middle-aged mother took a hit off of a bong?

Hint: Never

Everyone pays taxes. Not everyone partakes in recreational drugs.
Click to expand...
You missed the point. You really think the only people victimized or negatively effected by the war on drugs are those who use them? The war on drugs and the black market it creates effects all of us, regardless of bong usage.
 
You might want to utilize the search function and my user name along with phrases related to the discussion at hand before lecturing me about the drug war. :)

I'm right there with you on the drug war thing, but check this out:

The only non-drug users, non-libertarians who actually, honestly feel the ill effects of the drug war are the ones who've already swallowed the red pill.

In other words, the whole drug war thing is nothing more than preaching to the choir.

Everyone pays taxes. Everyone knows that the tax rates are much higher than they need to be. Everyone realizes that their taxes are being used to fund stuff that they philosophically, morally, or ethically cannot support. Taxation is a far more visceral and real issue to 99% of non-drug-using fence sitters than the drug war is. The bottom line is that Americans have always had a puritanical streak to them, and trying to get them to loosen up about it while at the same time asking them to change their entire root philosophy isn't about to work.

At the same time, most Americans are hard-working, honest folks who don't like to be lied to or stolen from. Taxation entails both of these. Hence you've already got them on your side.
 
As much as I find third parties interesting, our system for the major offices is inherently set up for two parties only. I think the only real solution is to destroy and replace one of the major parties or overhaul an existing party. Historically, it seems to be much easier to reform or overhaul existing parties than to form new ones. The GOP has gone through some radical changes since the FDR administration, for example. It's not the same party it was then. But the last time a party was destroyed and replaced was before the Civil War.

Perhaps a more interesting idea is to actually destroy the Democratic party once and for all and replace it with something new and more interesting. The big-L Libertarians are goofy at best, so I count them out. The party has been mired in throw-away status for so long now not even its leaders take it seriously. They use it as a platform for every crazy idea that comes along. In this state, one of the most small-l libertarian in the nation, the Libertarian Party is little more than a social club.

I hang out on a lot of leftist boards to poke fun a them, but one thing I've noticed is how little love the far left has for the Dems. They don't see the party as even remotely meaningful, and are mearly voting for it because they hate the GOP so much. Obviously the traditional big gob'ment leftists aren't going to exist under the same tent as small-government Reagan conservatives. But other than a vocal elite, I don't find too many liberals anymore who are wedded to the idea of an LBJ style federal government.

What would replace the Dems? It would be some sort of a hybrid between the social liberals and the alienated libertarians and traditional fiscal conservatives. This alliance might actually work at the federal level, but it will NEVER, EVER happen within the rigid and PC confines of the Democratic party itself.
 
You might want to utilize the search function and my user name along with phrases related to the discussion at hand before lecturing me about the drug war.

I'm right there with you on the drug war thing, but check this out:

The only non-drug users, non-libertarians who actually, honestly feel the ill effects of the drug war are the ones who've already swallowed the red pill.

In other words, the whole drug war thing is nothing more than preaching to the choir.

Everyone pays taxes. Everyone knows that the tax rates are much higher than they need to be. Everyone realizes that their taxes are being used to fund stuff that they philosophically, morally, or ethically cannot support. Taxation is a far more visceral and real issue to 99% of non-drug-using fence sitters than the drug war is. The bottom line is that Americans have always had a puritanical streak to them, and trying to get them to loosen up about it while at the same time asking them to change their entire root philosophy isn't about to work.

At the same time, most Americans are hard-working, honest folks who don't like to be lied to or stolen from. Taxation entails both of these. Hence you've already got them on your side.
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Sorry for lecturing. Guns and drugs are two of my favorite issues (no i'm not a druggie :) ), and I get a little frustrated sometimes that so few people seem to see the similarities between the war on drugs and the developing war on guns. I just found this board and am enjoying all the good discussions, so forgive me for not knowing your stance on this issue.

Sure everyone feels the ill effects of taxes, but atleast they also feel some, however inneficient, benefits from those taxes too. With regards to the constitution, I don't see how taxes are a better example of government abuse of power compared to the WOD. At least they passed an amendment before taxing personal income. If americans really wanted to we could repeal the 16th amendment, but even then we would still pay taxes by some other means.

The ill effects of the WOD are felt by everyone too, but are well disguised by layers of propaganda. People rarely even see the root cause of these ill effects, and I have yet to see any benefits from the war on drugs. Also I don't see it as people swallowing the red pill, since that implies the possibility of being able to take the blue instead. Sadly most people are never given the choice or are simply force fed the red pill.

IMHO it would be much easier to open peoples eyes to the truth about the WOD and its viable alternatives(alcohol market) than to convince them to abandon the taxation system that governments have been using for thousands of years(alternatives...?).
 
Perhaps a more interesting idea is to actually destroy the Democratic party once and for all and replace it with something new and more interesting
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Instead of eating our children, we should be attacking the socialists in Congress and get rid of them. Those would be the likes of Kennedy, Schumer, Feinstein, Kerry, et al...those who want to obstruct anything that the more conservative, more constitutionally aware people want to propose.
 
Instead of eating our children, we should be attacking the socialists in Congress and get rid of them. Those would be the likes of Kennedy, Schumer, Feinstein, Kerry, et al...those who want to obstruct anything that the more conservative, more constitutionally aware people want to propose.
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As clear a statement of the problem as I have seen. Everyone, I mean everyone, wants to throw out someone else's bum. Their bum is just fine. The revolution will start only after we refuse to reelect politicians. One term and you are out.
 
I Want A Say On What Effects Me!

8 Months of Day Light Savings Time? Slipped in the Energy Bill..what a crock! Air conditioners will siphen off what's saved elsewhere.

However, the main point being..something that so directly effects a person's life should...at the very least..be put to a vote.

I view this as relevent to the thread.

Take Care
 
On The Bright Side

Tom (Westar) Delay is finally going to get his. Other than Corporate Stooges, the honest Republicans still around are scraping this clown off their boots.

Take Care
 
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