Is a second American Revolution impossible?

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On a slight tangent...

Tellner brought up an interesting point; that the government ceases to exist when the people at large do not recognize its authority. It happened to the Soviet Union, and I think it is happening right now in France.

There are increasing sections of France where the people do not pay taxes, do not speak French, do not settle disputes under French law, but rather live their lives under Sharia Law. In these sections, France ceases to exist.

This type of 'revolution' is plausible, even today.
 
Who are you all kiddin???
History says "ALL KINGDOMS FALL"....

by revolution, invasion or any other means for a huge variety of reasons.

One day it will happen, guaranteed...and if you dont believe me...go back to high school and open a history book.
 
History Book?

And which high school would that be?

Yes, the one I went to. Forty years ago. Maybe the one you went to.

My two kids just graduated over the last couple of years.

Don't know spit about history. The books omit whole chunks of relevant stuff, and replace those chunks with "viewpoint" pieces. Opinion as fact.

One of the history teachers was FIRED for teaching too much history.

(Made national news. Has its own web site. But karma can be a bitch: he just ran for office as a trustee on the school board, against the guy who spearheaded that persecution. And won.)

You're right, of course, every civilization we've ever had has eventually toppled. It would be cool, though, if ours could last another few hundred years. After the "Correction Years" that happened at the beginning of the 21st century.
 
Tellner brought up an interesting point; that the government ceases to exist when the people at large do not recognize its authority. It happened to the Soviet Union, and I think it is happening right now in France.

There are increasing sections of France where the people do not pay taxes, do not speak French, do not settle disputes under French law, but rather live their lives under Sharia Law. In these sections, France ceases to exist.

This type of 'revolution' is plausible, even today.
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There's no question that all branches of Government today are de-legitimizing themselves.

But when responsible Government becomes ignored and irrelevant the result will be "government by other means." That means anarchy, bandits, warlords, and "strongmen" to the rescue. Our job is to re-create good Government, not utterly destroy it.
 
Our job is to re-create good Government, not utterly destroy it.
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Precisely.

Woody

"We the People are the government of this land. We decide who writes our laws, we decide who leads us, and we decide who will judge us; for as long as We the People have the guns to keep it that way." B.E.Wood
 
Hawkeye? you say " a couple of percent"? Are you considering that "a couple percent" of 300 million(the US population) is TWELVE MILLION? If six hundred, offered up there lives, to kill one opponent each, and die, our government would be ERASED. there would be nothing left, but a set of rules to select new ones.
 
Flechette, the same sort of thing is happening in parts of the UK. One of the papers I read, not sure if it was the Guardian, the Times or the Independent, had a piece on how some people were using Sharia instead of criminal law. I think back to the New York my grandparents lived in. A lot of recent Jewish immigrants used the rabbinical courts for civil and family matters. They did want to become Americans culturally, though. That may make it a little different.
 
Is another American Revolution impossible? No, not impossible. It is just highly unlikely. The bread and circuses routine from Washington has been far to successful. The average American is just too soft, too fat and satisfied to risk giving up the good life. The good life is the immediate reward for going along with the evil emanating from Washington, as long as it's some other poor sucker who is abused and destroyed by the powers that be it's no big deal. Few people today have the intestinal fortitude to be willing to give up, or even risk giving up, the plush life with the big screen TV, the car, the fast food etc. etc. for the chance of changing our government. To most it's not important. And it will not be important until it they are the ones who are adversely affected by the evil of government. By then it is too late.

So...revolution? Not impossible but extremely unlikely. And you can bet the powers behind the politics know this all too well.
 
+1 thexrayboy. I know a gentleman who is 50 years my elder and consider him a friend. We talk politics all the time and he mentions the 'fat and happy' disease in reference to most Americans today, being the ultimate cause of our downfall.

I don't fear Al Qaeda at all. What makes my blood run cold, is thinking about the glass jaw-of-an-economy that it appears to me that we have in the US. If we were talking about this in 1950, I would be a lot more at ease : almost everything for the consumer market was made here and we didn't owe a crippling amount of money to other nations, especially communist nations like China. Now, well...

If anything ever happened here, it would be similar to the Warsaw uprising against the Nazi army. Lets say SHTF economically - three days into it, Joe 6-pack realizes that he and his family will freeze to death, because they never fathomed a dramatic breakage in service was possible. That is when people will be pushed to the wall, and anything they see that can fix it, some will risk their lives to get it. Possibly a good thing for freedom, but as an earlier poster said, more than likely a chance for a new, more evil form of government like the commies to come into town.

As far as the mechanics of the American as an individual dusting off the musket and starting things up again - I would look at Iraq. Their pre-war society seemed a lot less 'post-modern' than what we have been infected with, so family ties and culture(IE will to fight those who threaten its continuation) are stronger there. So, it is possible to fight a guerrilla war against a top-tier military, however unfortunate an example of this truth the current situation might be.

But I hope that peace and freedom win out for all nations.
 
A Second American Revolution will happen at some point. But it is difficult to say when, or what the result would be. We could end up with a socialist system if the wrong things happened. As for those who talk about states rising up, forget it. The Civil War settled that one. And the Amendment making Senators be elected by citizens instead of state legislators put the nail in the coffin.

As for the whole illegal thing, it should have been a wakeup call to the states to reclaim lost power, but it hasn't been. More proof to my point.

By the way, the whole idea earlier of modern technology ending the "I'm a Virginian" idea is only partially correct. America has become "regional." It is common for a person born in New York to move to Connecticut, or from Boston to Baltimore. It isn't common at all though for a New Yorker to move to Montana or to Arkansas.

If a revolution were to occur in our current paradigm, it would be the fedgov pushing too far regarding land seizure, or the 2A, or messing with people's familys or their religion in one way or another. You take what someone owns, take away someone's right to defend themself, or try to stop people from practicing their beliefs and you cut your throat.

Oh, "The government wouldn't do that?"

What was Kelo? What about gun control since '34? What about Waco?

You do an ID chip, and it'll spark the religious community in ways the government would have never thought possible. And the most critical thing about it all, any of these things would be non-negotiable. No legal recourse. You do that, and you'll have your revolution.

What kind of revolution?

Well, the Henry Bowman, Unintended Consequences, Enemies: Foreign and Domestic sceanrio. Small scale assassinations. Inability to find the shooters.

But that happens, the government won't back down. Why? Because, in order for them to have decided to mess with people's property, their means of self-defense, or their beliefs, the government will have had to have grown such a massive sense of their own invincibility, they will escalate the situation.

This won't solve the killings because it will be small leaderless cells.

And, as the fedgov goes further, and does more to try to curtail people's rights, it will dig a deeper hole. It will kill innocents, jail people without reason or recourse, and create enemies it never had. It will have to fight defections in the ranks, and it will fail.

But the cost will be blood, and lots of it. Hell, we might even get foreign troops on US soil in order to enforce the illegal laws, but that is just as likely not to happen.

I think that as of now, the fedgov will use creeping incrementalism whenever possible.

But, with the current state of affairs concerning our border, things with the NAU, and an obsession with curtailing American's rights without trying to stop terrorists on our own soil, well, it makes me wonder.
 
Flechette, the same sort of thing is happening in parts of the UK. One of the papers I read, not sure if it was the Guardian, the Times or the Independent, had a piece on how some people were using Sharia instead of criminal law. I think back to the New York my grandparents lived in. A lot of recent Jewish immigrants used the rabbinical courts for civil and family matters. They did want to become Americans culturally, though. That may make it a little different.
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This may be an effective strategy we could apply here at home. The state of Montana came very close to passing a law that would proclaim the local Sheriff the supreme law enforcement officer of the state. The implication would be, if the Feds wanted to arrest someone inside Montana they would need to seek the permission of the Sheriff. If the Feds simply arrested the suspect directly, they would be kidnapping.

In this way, a state could actually decide which laws were enforced within its borders (as it was intended). If the state government had no problem with otherwise law-abiding individuals to make and own fully automatic machine guns, the Sheriff simply would not cooperate with the Feds to arrest these individuals.

So instead of adopting Sharia law in the state, we could adopt our own Constitution. (Whereas the Feds are clearly operating out of Constitutional limits in many ways).

The state would of course be threatened by te Fed to have all sorts of monies withheld; state highway funds, Federal prison funds, etc. But I think a shrewd bean-counter could end up making ends meet, especially if we didn't have to imprison citizens on bogus charges.

What else could the Fed do? They would have to resort to Civil War era tactics of sending in other states' national guard to force the state legislatures to change the law at bayonette point. I do not think this is a plausible tactic in today's political environment.
 
I think a civil war or revolution is possible in the long-term. There would have to be some kind of major breech in the oligarchy that runs the USofA. Sadly, what the common people think about anything is almost completely irrelevant. The handful of people that run this country are pretty much agreed on general principles, but there are stresses and strains from time to time. Right now, for example, the Zionists that control the White House and the big business/WASP aristocracy (Howard Baker's commission being a part of it) are having a little spat about the war in Iraq, but in my opinion there will not be permanent antagonism between the two groups.

There would have to be an interruption of power supplies in massive areas of the country. You need electricity to run that brainwashing device that exists in almost every home, the television. The portion of oligarchy that controls the idiot boxes has a real advantage over any opposition.

There would have to be a problem between the various crooks and criminals that run the US that would have to be so fundamental that only war would be a solution. I certainly don't see such a thing happening in the short or medium term.
 
Civil uprising will occur when the costs of compliance with government edicts exceed the costs of noncompliance.

I think one of three things will spark it; two are near-term, one is longer-term.
1. Outrage over deaths resulting from no-knock raids. A growing percentage of citizens realize that the War on Drugs is actually a War on the Bill of Rights. You get more dead 92yo shut-in grandmas, people get mad and start asking if it's worth it.

2. Property rights after the Kelo decision. Enough folks belief taking a home is worth fighting back over. And homeowners realize today it's your home, tomorrow it is theirs.

3. Long-term: impoverishing everyone below 65 with crushing taxes to pay for senior citizen programs such as Medicare, Social Security, etc.
 
"Revolution" comes in many forms. It does not need to be violent. It doesn't even need to be overly confrontational.

IT JUST INDICATES A RADICAL CHANGE.

I think, and actually hope (for my children at least) that SOME form of radical change will occur in my lifetime. By that, I mean that some "reasonableness" (is that a word?) will return to our once great country. There are so many things "wrong" within our governement today, I won't get into them, as they've been enumerated on this board many times. But I find some of them truly scary (and I don't scare easily!).

P.S.
3. Long-term: impoverishing everyone below 65 with crushing taxes to pay for senior citizen programs such as Medicare, Social Security, etc.
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I agree with you---however I'm currently on the receiving end of SS and Medicare--and trust me, it isn't all that most think its cracked up to be. I worked HARD from the time I was 15, often 2 jobs, so I'm "maxed out" as far as SS benefits are concerned---and I can barely survive. I have been declared "totally disabled" 3 times. The first 2 I managed to find a way to still work, but now that's simply not a realistic option. Medicare, even with suplimental insurance does't begin to cover my medical costs (for example,I take about $1000 worth of drugs every month---many aren't covered at all and the ones that are have "co-pays" of a few dollars. and a few dollars means a few days that I don't get to eat much).

What people need to understand about SS and Medicare, is that many of us "payed our dues", and still don't receive anything remotely resembling the ability to live on our benefits. Also, I never expected to have to live on my benefits alone, I had savings and investments BUT since it took 28 months for me to get approved for SS benefits, I used all of that up.

MY CONTENTION is that it is the burden of OTHER taxes that is crushing most people(I used to pay almost 45% of my income to taxes, if you include sales taxes and property taxes), and that if it weren't for that SS and Medicare could be properly funded, for the people that need it now, as well as for future generations.
 
What would the Feds do?

In some respects, they are already doing it.

Consider: If a state or region wants to go it alone, it can't do it without some kind of alternative economy and currency. It's an easy thing for the Feds to freeze/seize the assets of those in the area. They'd shut down the banks and you'd not be able to buy any goods from Walmart.

The Feds are now absolutely PARANOID about alternative currency such as "The Liberty Dollar" http://www.libertydollar.org/ which is based in Arkansas. The IRS is all over people in northwestern Arkansas who aren't "showing" enough income. They come out evaluate your property and then say you owe taxes on "Implied Income" per their estimate of your standard of living.

The Feds can and will apply full economic warfare against portions of the population to keep "control."
 
As far as preventing or instigating revolution goes;...ever notice that April 15(tax day) and the first Tuesday in November(Election day) are as far apart as possible on the calender? If you want to start a revolution, put these events on the same day!!.

Dan
 
I just spent a lot of time reading the "liberty dollar" advertisement,,,, I have wasted time before this.... If anyone here wants to buy one ounce silver coins for twenty dollars us currency, I would be pleased to offer a discount from that (like maybe half)? Bullion? One ounce silver bars, at .999 percent pure?
.
I think it is smoke and mirrors,,, one ounce of silver is not worth even ten dollars at todays prices. As has been said so many times, if something seems too good to be true, it probaly is.

Sorry,,, this is only my opinion. TANSTAAFL
 
If you want to get a good understanding of how control is maintained in this country (or any country, I suppose), watch the movie Braveheart and listen to the conversations between Robert the Bruce and his evil father on the subject of the Scottish war of independence from England. The father had a very deep and insidious understanding of how the loyalties of the upper echelon of society were manipulated by the English King Edward I (as well as how to use that for his own families best interests). - Basically, the way it worked then and the way will always work is that if you are a political "big wig" and you want to manipulate the "landed gentry" (or in todays terms "Corporate CEO's, etc) you make sure that anyone of "means" that you wish to control is given financial interests in other areas physically away from where they are from. For instance, in my opinion, that is a large but unspoken part of what a lot of the "free trade" treaties of today are about. On paper, they just make it easier for big business to farm out labor to other countries where it's cheaper for them to build things, but the other, unstated reason for doing this is to give the rich "elite" people assets in other countries (and states, etc) so that they will not be whole heartedly loyal to their home. Rather, they will be loyal to those who enable them to line their pockets with the most money. None of them will ever admit this, and they'll go to extremes to put on "dog and pony shows" to make it look otherwise, but that's the bottom line of political manipulation. Divide and Conquer through strategic placement of the money and assets of the rich. - So... who controls things? Ask yourself who controls the money and you'll have your answer.

As to the topic of the thread... I don't ever see it happening. As others have stated, too many people are dependent on the current system. Which is by design, I'm sure. Just another method of dividing the loyalties of the people.

For an interesting read on the way things might possibly play out for this country in the future, you should read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Republic". So far, there are a lot of similarities in the way things are playing out here and now. That's no surprise though. Technology changes, but human nature always stays the same.
 
Ask yourself who controls the money and you'll have your answer.
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Answer: A Private Company Known as the "Federal Reserve" the owners of which are unknown but are not the US Citizens or US Government.
 
Silver is currently between 13.50 and 14.70 depending on the day and prevailing trends.

As for the Liberty Dollar, lets just say that it's one advantage is that as the price of Gold and Silver goes up it matches and then exceeds what you payed. That being said, I still don't buy it because i can get coins for only a few dollars over spot price.

However, that is neither here nor there. It comes down to the government making everyone believe there is no way to peacefully change the problems they see, and those problems having a real effect on their lives.

With each passing day, the fedgov goes further in doing these things.

Keep in mind, it is about money. If the fedgov quit getting our tax money. Large #s of Americans just decided in certain areas paying taxes ain't hot. It sucks so bad that they'll just ignore the system, and they began to fund things only through local and state governments, it would be the real beginnings of the end for the fedgov when they would either have to send in troops, or discuss terms.
 
No, don't see it.

Rant on.....

Some catalyst has to piss off the people to such a degree that they start taking pot shots at the politicos to effect change. I don't see it going as far as our initial revolt from England. If something like the aforementioned conspiracy theory behind 9/11 were true and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that our politicos enabled the Americans to be killed simply to push some agenda forward. I'm certain many potshots would follow to those proven to be part of this action, and probably rather quickly.

Something will affect change, but I don't think it will be a mass uprising. It took many, many years for the colonists to eventually revolt, it did not happen simply on 4th of July. It took time, many like minded people, and multiple mis-steps by the British Monarchy to bring it about. We had people involved in attempting to resolve these conflicts diplomatically for quite some time before revolution and the casting off of the monarchy choice was made.

With the government welfare and care system being what it is today. I'm not sure the people with their hands out are going to ever revolt against the .gov givers. No matter how desperate these folks are in America, I think that nearly all of them realize how much better they have it as poverty level Americans than even most of the third world societies. The broadcast media insures that.

As in the WWII example, the Jews were being killed enmasse long before the remaining living population had a clue as to what was happening. By this time, most of their firearms were already out of their hands.

I think firearms confiscation would very well be one of the catalysts that will push the people over the edge to begin taking out key government officials to affect change. If shooters were to escape and never be found, it would strike much more fear into the government society than if they caught the person. Without capture, .gov will have a much harder time brainwashing the people how "bad" this shooter actually is. If they never found the shooter, they would become a hero of all that despise how our government regards the people they serve. I personally despise the feds now with their ability to serve 4-6 years and have that income for life...and not pay social security, and all the other little perks they give to themselves and don't share with the "people" they claim to be representing.

And I think it continues to grow everyday due to the way the Bush Administration has run the show. I don't mean to use this as something to spawn a conservative versus liberal war, but merely serve as an example of how the politicos can push their limits so far as to make 150 million people fed up with the abuses of power that are taking place. I doubt half of the colonists backed a plan to cast off the Monarchy, but we all benefitted from it happening. If 150 million people decided to quit paying taxes altogether, what would they do, lock half of America up?

Admittedly, our marionette controlled media will only report what the governement allows, and does a damn fine job supporting the spin machine already. I mean really, how many of you out there truly think the government is "by the people and for the people" anymore. In my generation, it is more aptly coined, 'By the lobbyists, for the Corporations.' The government knew what Enron was doing, some of them were actually financially gaining from it. Bush was a close friend of one of the men that orchestrated the whole thing. So please don't tell me that these politicos deserve to be put on some pedestal when what some of them deserve is the gallows instead.

And the Bush administration no-bid contracts to Halliburton, huge deficit spending and totally waffling on border security has made this so obviously clear that it completely blows my mind already. And frankly, I am quite surprised that the president or his administration have not been fired upon already. By the way, where the hell is Bin Laden?

So, in short, I think the injustices are already present that are worthy of a revolution, we are simply so modernized that we don't even know it because we're distracted by the media machine and misinformation so much that we've become complacent and simply believe that they couldn't be that "evil." Well, I think they can, and the facts show they are. It's just a much more civil society than the 1800's and the boob box does a good job of making it really difficult to know when your getting screwed.

Damn, this stuff gets me going every time......rant off.
 
Zedicus: Absolutely right. World banking industry, maybe? Who knows. I'm sure that's purposely hidden.

On the general subject of how the nation is kept under control, to add to what I posted above about the "elite" class and the welfare class, there's also the aspect of the states being controlled by the redistribution of tax money. Once the income tax was in place, the stage was set for complete control of the states. All the money goes in to the feds and then they dole it back out in the form of money from any number of "programs" that have all sorts of strings attached (road money and school money, etc, for example), and if the states don't submit to the will of the feds, the money gets cut off... so what you get is the money of the people of a given state going out for redistribution, but not coming back to help that particular state. Once again, it's manipulation through controlling the money. - Of course, at the top level, I'm sure the same "money people" probably control the top politicians by saying stuff like, "well, mr. (insert name of politician), the country is in a lot of debt and if you don't support (insert name of legislation helping world bankers or whatever), we might have to call in some loans, or see to it that other things happen to hurt the economy... and that would be on your watch, so guess who the voters would blame". That's the worst part about letting the country be in debt. The holder of the debt is effectively your master.

Passing the federal reserve act and allowing an income tax were two of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

At any rate, it's interesting to think about how it all works, but unless something terrible happens that makes the average person become super poor, as in living in cardboard boxes like you see in mexico, I really don't think anyone would seriously consider trying to change it through violent means. If it ever did happen though, I'll bet it would be terrible like the civil war (for lack of a better name) in the 1860's. My reasoning being that the only way I can imagine it ever happening at all would be another secession crisis. But who knows. Either way, it's a terrible thing to think about.
 
no way

It is NOT possible and it ain't gonna happen.

The American people love their Socialist Security much more than they EVER loved their freedom. Their God is the omniscient and omnivorous entity which sends them a check every month and periodically raises their "minimum wage".

If you are a Christian, have a happy Nonspecific Winter Celebration. Everyone else, have fun celebrating your religious holy-days.
 
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