wmenorr67
Member
No when they are done with it you probably owe two quarters.
It's Time For A Revolution within the GOP
- Thread starter Cosmoline
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No when they are done with it you probably owe two quarters.
xd9fan
Member
supply and demand
or its time for a revolution on how americans think about the two party system. Hows it workin for ya??
What do you think would happen if the gun owners out there voted for the party that has no "but's" to its views on freedom and the 2A? Dems and GOP'ers all say the "we believe in the 2A...but this or that" Both parties have voted for the 1968 ban and the AWB of 1994.
What would happen to the 2 parties if Gun owners voted for the LP.
Dont *itch at me telling me the 3rd will never win, never have a chance....while ya sit there and do nothing and keep voting the 2 party line.....wondering how change takes place. You think emails will change McCain from being a RINO??? Do you think if you vote a 3rd party a dem will win?? (i dont think so)
Some pi$$ed off GOPs will just grab their ankles and hold on because they think if they leave a dem will be voted in...... but if they stay and continue to vote for the GOP, it rewards the Bush/FDR behavior. So how will real/effective/will not take two generations....change take place?????
The only way the GOP will change is by a major loss of votes. period. emails wont do it. I have tried till my fingers hurt typing. Its supply and demand.
I think people should vote for the LP because of their principles based on Classical Liberal thought but this countries too hook on european/socialist/entitlement dependence for that.
I hope the LP gains numbers because the fiscal Conservatives are being treated like they have Hanson's disease from GOP.
The GOP left me and I'm not going to beg for them to come back to me (to come back to conservatism) like I'm some second class pee-on asking please please.......... Voters should have the control. If they will no longer listen to me than they will lose my vote. The free market loves competition, its good for everybody. I just cant believe some that think competition will not help american politics. its supply and demand...........demand better
or its time for a revolution on how americans think about the two party system. Hows it workin for ya??
What do you think would happen if the gun owners out there voted for the party that has no "but's" to its views on freedom and the 2A? Dems and GOP'ers all say the "we believe in the 2A...but this or that" Both parties have voted for the 1968 ban and the AWB of 1994.
What would happen to the 2 parties if Gun owners voted for the LP.
Dont *itch at me telling me the 3rd will never win, never have a chance....while ya sit there and do nothing and keep voting the 2 party line.....wondering how change takes place. You think emails will change McCain from being a RINO??? Do you think if you vote a 3rd party a dem will win?? (i dont think so)
Some pi$$ed off GOPs will just grab their ankles and hold on because they think if they leave a dem will be voted in...... but if they stay and continue to vote for the GOP, it rewards the Bush/FDR behavior. So how will real/effective/will not take two generations....change take place?????
The only way the GOP will change is by a major loss of votes. period. emails wont do it. I have tried till my fingers hurt typing. Its supply and demand.
I think people should vote for the LP because of their principles based on Classical Liberal thought but this countries too hook on european/socialist/entitlement dependence for that.
I hope the LP gains numbers because the fiscal Conservatives are being treated like they have Hanson's disease from GOP.
The GOP left me and I'm not going to beg for them to come back to me (to come back to conservatism) like I'm some second class pee-on asking please please.......... Voters should have the control. If they will no longer listen to me than they will lose my vote. The free market loves competition, its good for everybody. I just cant believe some that think competition will not help american politics. its supply and demand...........demand better
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Waitone
Member
A third party begins to have a chance when a broad appeal issue appears.
Don't think second amendment issues is the issue.
Illegal immigration does have the appeal IMNSHO.
Don't think second amendment issues is the issue.
Illegal immigration does have the appeal IMNSHO.
Daniel T
Member
I think you're right. However, plenty of issues can spin off from illegal immigration. Protecting yourself from illegals, for example.
The Democrat party has been co-opted, hijacked, by an extremist, radical leftist element. Any Democrat who is serious about election will have to deal with or pander to, this element. As long as the Democrats remain in this far left lala land, Republicans have no incentive, or reason, to practice anything resembling conservatism, except for occasional lip service. The Republican party knows we have no other choice, nowhere else to go.
griz
Member
I usually have voted Libertarian. My state has gone Republican on the president for several decades, so I suppose it was a safe protest vote.
But I am considering voting split D/R to try for gridlock. The reasoning is either party will spend like there's no tomorrow if they have the house, senate, and pres. Only if the two are fighting each other will they turn down ANYTHING that requires money. I am not saying the Democrates are better, only that the result is a slower growth of the federal government.
But I am considering voting split D/R to try for gridlock. The reasoning is either party will spend like there's no tomorrow if they have the house, senate, and pres. Only if the two are fighting each other will they turn down ANYTHING that requires money. I am not saying the Democrates are better, only that the result is a slower growth of the federal government.
xd9fan
Member
RH Lee really...you really think you have nowhere else to go??? 
It sad to think americans thinking they have no options. Its time to tell the GOP where to stick it.
Griz why not vote LP all the time based on principle to stop the growth of Govt?
I guess my frustration on these threads has been......well......I want americans to vote based on core principles (even if that party has held them for years but now has left loyal voters them behind) to keep voting based on your beliefs even if it means changing parties to do it(because parties change as well)....not based on what the other party is doing....or what could happen if this guy/gal got in....or shortterm outcomes...or thinking gridlock is good....or fear........
Do all new Libertarians go through this mental disorder I am having of seeing what this country is/wants versus how cool it would be if the country got back to the classical liberal thinking of less Govt/free market/pro-individual liberty? somebody a pill I need a pill for this.........
It sad to think americans thinking they have no options. Its time to tell the GOP where to stick it.
Griz why not vote LP all the time based on principle to stop the growth of Govt?
I guess my frustration on these threads has been......well......I want americans to vote based on core principles (even if that party has held them for years but now has left loyal voters them behind) to keep voting based on your beliefs even if it means changing parties to do it(because parties change as well)....not based on what the other party is doing....or what could happen if this guy/gal got in....or shortterm outcomes...or thinking gridlock is good....or fear........
Do all new Libertarians go through this mental disorder I am having of seeing what this country is/wants versus how cool it would be if the country got back to the classical liberal thinking of less Govt/free market/pro-individual liberty? somebody a pill I need a pill for this.........
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Well, are we assuming a fantasy scenario where every gun owners has a common political viewpoint just by virtue of owning a gun and secondary issues like economics, social mores, etc. do not enter into the equation? Are we also assuming that all gun owners share the same views about guns? After all Diane Feinstein owned a .38 revolver and Sarah Brady purchased a rifle for her son. Finally, are we assuming all gun owners vote?
In this fantasy scenario, gun owners dominate the new American electorate. Depending on estimates that is between 44-80 million votes in elections that typically only see 100-115 million voters. If you assume gun owners only vote at the same rate as the regular voting age public though, that influence drops to 22-40 million votes; but is still a substantial influence and certainly enough to sway all national elections.
Well, that major loss of votes is unlikely to come from the LP. Only once has the LP topped 1% in a national election and that was over 20 years ago (1980). In the last election, not a single state had a LP vote above 0.70%
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2004/2004pres.pdf
But let's assume a lot of people were sufficiently threatened by Kerry that they voted for the Republicans despite Libertarian leanings. I don't know what that number might be so let's just guess a nice round number and say that there are 50 LP-sympathetic Republican voters for every LP voter - what does that get you?
longeyes
member
Folks, it's not about third parties, it's about safe havens. We're going to need to bolster states' rights because we are going to need semi-autonomous or fully autonomous regions to protect what's left of "Old America." Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't see a majority of Americans in this day and age, after forty-plus years of welfareism, backing the original vision of the Founders. Everyone talks about "uniting" the country. Yeah, makes sense for national defense but there is no longer the grand consensus for our core values that we need. "Unite" and we will see compromises that strip away the last vestiges of our radical civil liberties.
What good is a third or fourth party if in the end, de facto, you are still under the sway of a benign socialist dictatorship? And we may only be three years from that.
What good is a third or fourth party if in the end, de facto, you are still under the sway of a benign socialist dictatorship? And we may only be three years from that.
xd9fan
Member
Barth It gets you 50 people hiding in a party based on fear ......and thats not liberty. Change takes time......I wonder if americans are up for it.
Americans vote in the free market everyday.......I'll buy from this guy but not the other. the free market works. What I cant understand is why they think it will not work with politics. Companies continuously shape and change to meet the demands of the market(you and me). Political parties will do the same if they want to survive. Completition and/or the loss of votes is the only way the GOP or any party will change its bad behavior.
BUT this means the people have to beleve in themselves enough to force change.
Americans vote in the free market everyday.......I'll buy from this guy but not the other. the free market works. What I cant understand is why they think it will not work with politics. Companies continuously shape and change to meet the demands of the market(you and me). Political parties will do the same if they want to survive. Completition and/or the loss of votes is the only way the GOP or any party will change its bad behavior.
BUT this means the people have to beleve in themselves enough to force change.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I don't know the answer to our currnet problems with the Republican Party, but I don't think the Libertarian Party is going to be it.
Until the Libertarians drop drug legalization from their platform, they will go no where. You can scream about how wrong the War on Drugs is, and that the government shouldn't be involved in keeping people from hurting themselves with drugs, and to some extent I would agree. But for over 50 yrs, the government has actively pursued an anti-drug agenda, and Americans are so accustomed to this that nothing is going to change any time soon. Talking about drug legalization makes most Americans think you are crazy.
As I have said before, the only time we are safe from Republicans and Democrats is when neither party has total control over all branches of government. Gridlock is our friend. That's why I hope the Democrats take back the House or Senate in 2006.
Until the Libertarians drop drug legalization from their platform, they will go no where. You can scream about how wrong the War on Drugs is, and that the government shouldn't be involved in keeping people from hurting themselves with drugs, and to some extent I would agree. But for over 50 yrs, the government has actively pursued an anti-drug agenda, and Americans are so accustomed to this that nothing is going to change any time soon. Talking about drug legalization makes most Americans think you are crazy.
As I have said before, the only time we are safe from Republicans and Democrats is when neither party has total control over all branches of government. Gridlock is our friend. That's why I hope the Democrats take back the House or Senate in 2006.
longeyes
member
I also agree that illegal immigration has the magma to be a national issue that can spawn new parties and new leaders. But let's be realistic, there is not only a growing constituency for illegal immigration, there is already a critical mass. Dealing with 20 million illegals--and who really knows how many there are?--is not merely a matter of writing new legislation or hiring more border guards. We had that chance a few years ago; we are well beyond that point. When the GOP decided to switch rather than fight--was it the Dornan-Sanchez election that swung the tide?--the rules of the game changed. Unfortunately.
xd9fan
Member
lone gunman....I dont agree with drugs either(i'm a ICU RN).....But lets not give a small issue to much power over your thinking of this party. The LP stands for free markets, limited Govt, private property, individual liberty.......
How are the other two doing on these concepts so far?????
How are the other two doing on these concepts so far?????
longeyes
member
Gridlock can buy us time. Time to apply tourniquets, maybe to heal. If we're lucky we'll be able to just block the worst of what's likely to be proposed in the coming years.
But then?
Gridlock is not any real answer and it won't stop the gangrene that is slowly spreading throughout the body politic.
But then?
Gridlock is not any real answer and it won't stop the gangrene that is slowly spreading throughout the body politic.
griz
Member
I have been, but gridlock has a chance of happening.
Couldn't agree more, that's why I've been voting L.
xd9fan
Member
Well Griz this newbie lper will join you in the next election.
footnote as a recovering GOPer I am sorry Griz, Patrick Henry , Thomas Jefferson and Adam Smith and others for not seeing the light sooner.
footnote as a recovering GOPer I am sorry Griz, Patrick Henry , Thomas Jefferson and Adam Smith and others for not seeing the light sooner.
Nothing short of a catastrophic event will change the course of both the Republicans and Democrats. Government is too big, too powerful, and has too much of our money. They absolutely will not relinquish any of that power or money willingly. Some huge event, economic collapse, worldwide pandemic killing tens or hundreds of millions, massive terrorist attacks, will have to occur first. Then there is no guarantee that freedom and liberty will be chosen path. Most people have already been indoctrinated to look to government to meet their needs and wants. Totalitarianism is coming, one way or the other.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
What are you talking about? Politics is one of the purer free markets in America. The reason LP ideas don't propagate further is because people who are comfortable with the LP platform are a tiny share of that market (and the other parties have used the free market nature to establish political monopolies and use their power to exclude competition as much as is feasible)
chaim
Member
Not a bad idea, but don't just vote for the random Dem in order to get gridlock. You can do this and still stay (somewhat) true to your ideologies.
If you are a pro-gun fiscal conservative (like me) there is a constituency in the Dem party for that. Give your vote (when in your district) or some financial support (when out of you district) to pro-gun and/or fiscal conservative Dems (or Repubs if you are a Dem). That way you may be supporting someone who you disagree with on some/many issues (they are in the other party) but on key issues for you they are on your side.
You can still go for the split legislature and vote for gridlock yet also support issues that are important to you. As a side bonus, if enough people do this, the Dems may moderate quite a bit on a few key issues simply because more moderates who agree with us on some issues may come to power.
TallPine
Member
So....? Just talking about "liberty" makes most Americans think you are crazy.
And then there was those crazy abolitionists back in the 19th century. Slavery had been legal since before the USA existed and they wanted to end it - how crazy can you get?
Lone_Gunman
Member
TallPine, that is the argument that Libertarians always make, and the reason they always lose.
M-Rex
member
beaucoup ammo
Member
Quiet On The Set...And, Action!
"To be elected to public office, you must either have no 'core principles' or be willing to abandon whatever core principles you thought you had in exchange for votes."
These are scary options. But true. Democrats use "La-La Land" Movie Stars To Shout Their Message, while Republicans actually run them for office and win on every level! Reagan, Fred Dalton Thompson (sp?), Eastwood, Swartzenager, Bono and on and on. They read the lines provided them by the Party hacks.
Politics is Big Biz Show Biz..and only a fraction of Americans realize it..and an even smaller fraction vote.
Take Care
"To be elected to public office, you must either have no 'core principles' or be willing to abandon whatever core principles you thought you had in exchange for votes."
These are scary options. But true. Democrats use "La-La Land" Movie Stars To Shout Their Message, while Republicans actually run them for office and win on every level! Reagan, Fred Dalton Thompson (sp?), Eastwood, Swartzenager, Bono and on and on. They read the lines provided them by the Party hacks.
Politics is Big Biz Show Biz..and only a fraction of Americans realize it..and an even smaller fraction vote.
Take Care
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