Is it time to boycott FFL scammers?

[Javelin]

Friends,

I want to take a moment and share something concerning with you. There is a new scum that has been seeping into our competition shooting sports and outdoor hunting world. They start by filling out a few ATF Forms and begin scamming upstanding gun owners under an FFL Gun Store. I have been noticing it personally and after reading some posts regarding FFL transfer fees, background checks, price fixing, and even tax ID fraud I feel we are seeing a real downward trend!

This is happening in almost every city and the gun owners (us) usually try to look the other way and in some way try to justify it that an FFL transfer should cost $50,$75,or even $100+ because of (insert 'whatever' justification). FFL transfers require 3 sheets of paper and a phone call. I will let you in on a little something, if "all" your dealers are charging the same high amount, they are most likely price fixing and I implore all THR members to not support this activity and spend a little time looking for those that don't and support them. Even if the price fixing store is a (insert justification) it’s not right to support it by buying from them. Price gouging and scamming needs to stop in the firearms world. Here are a few topics of example:

Some THR members are reporting FFL dealers try to charge a % of the sale of the firearm you bought and are trying to transfer. I have seen this myself and made it a point to tell them neither I nor anyone else I know will buy from them. This % charging is a scam. Again, its 3 sheets of paper and a phone call, you already paid for the firearm, they have nothing to do with it past government regulation of a background check.

Some THR members are reporting FFL dealers trying to charge you tax on the firearm. This is a scam. The tax license they have (or may not have) is for State sales on goods sold by their store as reported to the IRS. This is actually a felony on the dealer to be scamming gun owners in such a way. I for one feel that if you ever experience this you MUST contact your Secretary of State to report them (and notify the THR/gun community).

Finally, I have seen gun stores selling THEIR OWN firearms in states like Colorado (Specialty Sports is one), Tennessee (The Gun Shop is another) and then charge for a background check on top of the purchase you made with them! Once again this is price gouging. And again, should not be supported as it is a phone call and three sheets of paper, one of which you fill out yourself!

Please DO support those FFL dealers that are upstanding and ditch the ones that are not. DO NOT pay over $20 for an FFL transfer (many charge the standard courtesy $10-$15 for the service) for those dealers that are scamming tell them why you are no longer supporting them (i.e. price gouging, fixing, etc). I understand in some states that taxes, fees, and other charges apply so it is important to know your local laws. But those FFL's that are robbing the gun community while we, the loyal firearm owners justifying it, needs to end.

If you know of a shop that is scamming customers please feel free to post it here (phone number can be helpful too). Its time we let these guys know what they are doing is in some cases illegal and that we as the majority of the upstanding gun community will not put up with it.

If you need to find an FFL dealer in your area you can easily do a search on the links below. Be sure to ask #1 how much they charge and #2 when they are available.

I again implore you to spend the time to search out and support those who are moral dealers. I hope other THR members share in this.



Links to registered FFL dealers;
http://www.auctionarms.com/help/fflnetwork.cfm
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
http://listings.shotgunnews.com/fflguide/http://www.sellguns.com/ffl/map.asp

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Fixed transfer fee...

We charge $25.00, period.

 

[Justin]

Finally, I have seen gun stores selling THEIR OWN firearms in states like Colorado (Specialty Sports is one), Tennessee (The Gun Shop is another) and then charge for a background check on top of the purchase you made with them! Once again this is price gouging. And again, should not be supported as it is a phone call and three sheets of paper, one of which you fill out yourself!

So, what you're saying is that they should raise the price of the gun by the amount they charge to do a background check? So you don't have to pay an extra fee that you know you're going to have to pay beforehand anyway?

I have yet to see a decent explanation of what constitutes "price gouging" but I'm fairly certain that what you describe isn't it.

 

[Soybomb]

I don't know what about it is a scam, it seems like they're being upfront about their pricing. If they really don't want to do transfers and want to charge $75 a transfer, that seems honest even if expensive. I can understand why a business owner might want to spend time with his customers at the counter who buy all their gear there instead of playing with the fax machine trying to send a legibile ffl for the bargain hunter who is going to buy everything online. Nothing about that seems immoral to me.

Fwiw I'm the bargain hunter and have my transfers done by a pawn shop that is happy to take my $20. The only time I've ever been charged sales tax was on a gun I bought from CDNN who refused to make the bill of sale out to me but insisted it be done with the pawn shops name despite my credit card paying for it. I blame cdnn for that and just don't buy from them anymore. I've also been charged $2 before for a background check. I don't really care if they add it at the end or on the sticker price for the gun. If they're paying $2 for every call to the state police I'm going to pay it one way or the other.

 

[308win]

If anyone charges you sales tax on TPP they didn't sell you call the Dept of Taxation turn them in and see if the Dept of Taxation has a tip program where you get a % of the recovery. $25 seems like a fair price for the time and effort of preparing and maintaining the paperwork. IMO charging a fee on firearms they sell you is over the top but if they are the only game around I guess the market is what it is.

 

[saddlebum]

they charge what they feel like thier serivce is worth, use it or don't.

i'm in the hvac bizz some people think my price is to high, they are free to call someone else. i charge what i need to make money, if i'm not going to make money then i don't care put out my skill. i ain't doin it cause i love you, nor is the ffl.

 

[Javelin]

So, what you're saying is that they should raise the price of the gun by the amount they charge to do a background check?

Is it the price of the gun to begin with then Justin? What is the price of the gun if they are going to charge you a background check on top of their firearm to sell it? I have one word for it if that is the case... misrepresentation of the price! Think your getting a good deal well just wait till they ring it up!

And in most cases it doesnt show up until your at the register and they say (OH Mr./Mrs. **** that is actually the Federal Firearms Background Check that we must perform, its the law). PRICELESS!!! Who is going to question that?! It is the law right... so thats why the $35 appears on there! So lame but it is so comming in all forms of business... its just now really hitting our world and its time to nip it in the bud.

I can understand why a business owner might want to spend time with his customers at the counter who buy all their gear there instead of playing with the fax machine trying to send a legibile ffl for the bargain hunter who is going to buy everything online. Nothing about that seems immoral to me.

I can't see how it would be bad for a business to bring qualified customers to their shops and building a possible future client base, and get paid for it to boot. Its price gouging plain and simple. There are so many dealers right now that are practicing this its affecting the entire community and the more we support it the more they will do it.

Lets face it, for the most part gun owners are educated people and so we try to justify the mysteries of FFL gun purchases when its really easy. The problem is that FFL dealers are just pricing because thats what others are pricing. And its to the point of being rediculous and I just wanted to see if the community has noticed this (or are still in shock over inflation and brass cost to pay attention).

If they charge $25, $35, $50, $75 for what they do and you are happy about it then spend the money. It does not take much thought to spend more money and the scammers have adjusted accordingly.

they charge what they feel like thier serivce is worth, use it or don't.

That is what this post is about! No business they either change or go out of business. Its pretty simple.

If they're paying $2 for every call to the state police I'm going to pay it one way or the other.

$2? Ok I can't still see this as a justification for the outragious prices of FFL transfers and fees to the customer.

I see I am stepping on some FFL dealer toes here from the posts. If you (the Dealer) feel a little uneasy its probably because you are price gouging law-abiding gun owners of their wallets.

MY POINT IS: Stop justifying and rationalizing why the Dealers are now doing it and start supporting those who don't

 

[Soybomb]

I can see how it would suck for a business to bring qualified customers to their shops and building a possible future client base, and get paid for it to boot.

Okay that is why it might not be business savvy to turn these people away but it isn't why its immoral or a scam to do so. You're calling them crooks but the best you've got is that their actions might be short sighted.

The problem is that FFL dealers are just pricing because thats what others are pricing.

Its a free market, if they're all over priced then its ripe for the picking. I'd try to get an FFL and make some bucks!

I see I am stepping on some FFL dealer toes here from the posts.

I only see 1 dealer so far and he charges $25. Personally I just don't think its right to call someone dishonest or a scammer because you feel like their prices are too high.

 

[Justin]

Is it the price of the gun to begin with then Justin? What is the price of the gun if they are going to charge you a background check on top of their firearm to sell it? And in most cases it doesnt show up until your at the register and they say (OH Mr./Mrs. **** that is actually the Federal Firearms Background Check that we must perform, its the law). PRICELESS!!! Who is going to question that?! It is the law right... so thats why the $35 appears on there!

The above strikes me as being quasi-incoherent, but I'll try to answer as best I can, anyway.

There are costs involved in doing a background check. If the FFL is making a phone call to conduct the check, they're often put on hold by the government for upwards of an hour. That hour is time that they could have spent doing something more productive. That's what you're paying for.

If the FFL uses a computer to do the background check, you're paying for the machine used to run the check, the internet connection required to send the info to the feds, and any fees the government may charge for access to the NICS database.

You seem to be laboring under the belief that there are absolutely zero costs associated with conducting a background check, and that because of it, all FFL's should do them practically for free.

Lets face it, for the most part gun owners are educated people and so we try to justify the mysteries of FFL gun purchases when its really easy. The problem is that FFL dealers are just pricing because thats what others are pricing.

They're pricing what the market will bear. Most dealers, in my experience, charge between $25-$35. In some cases, FFL's charge ridiculous (note the spelling) fees for transfers because they don't want to put up with the hassle of dealing with guns they didn't sell out of their own inventory.

 

[CBS220]

I pay 3% for all my transfers. It's a bargain.

 

[Justin]

Its a free market, if they're all over priced then its ripe for the picking. I'd try to get an FFL and make some bucks!

Very well said.

 

[Javelin]

Quote:
Its a free market, if they're all over priced then its ripe for the picking. I'd try to get an FFL and make some bucks!

Very well said.

There are so many good ones out there that do good business. The links are provided. Please support those that do good business.

 

[Justin]

I've got an FFL who charges me about $25 to do a transfer, so I have no need for your links.

It doesn't change the fact that you're incorrectly calling all FFL's who charge more than you like crooks.

 

[tuckerdog1]

There's a fellow in the Austin "area" that charges $6. He's a member of THR & may reply when he sees this thread.

Tuckerdog1

 

[Javelin]

It doesn't change the fact that you're incorrectly calling all FFL's who charge more than you like crooks.

That is an arrogant statement. The FFL transfer fee of $25 was ONE of the examples I gave. The fact is price gouging, price fixing, illegally charging taxes are becoming common-place and that is what this thread is about. Educate the community that might not have been around before all this has transpired and maybe being taken for a ride.

Dont Hi-Jack this post Justin because of the difference of $10 in FFL transfer. I don't honestly care what you pay for your firearms. It was just my advice to the THR members to NOT pay over $20 as there are many dealers that charge under that. And provided the information for THR members to go to.

I just felt it is important that everyone know there are some major scams going on that maybe affecting our shooting community and ultimately making things rediculously expensive in an already expensive sport.



PS: Thank you Justin [moderator] for commenting on my typing in your earlier post. That was very High Road of you!

 

[nalioth]

In my search for a local FFL to handle transfers, I've found a couple that want to charge you tax on the item. "The state tax boys told me to." they say.

Being that they wouldn't know what you paid, and/or will make up their version of of "what it should cost", I consider this fraud and after my acknowledgment of their terms, I went on down the list.

I've since found a local businessman who values his customers, and I shop there even when I'm not in need of his FFL services (his is not the closest business of its type to me)

 

[JWarren]

The shop I have used in the past charges a % on transfers. Am I getting ripped off? Yep.

Am I using them on my next purchase? Yep.

Why?

There are not a lot of choices of local-owned FFLs around here. Most got run out of business by the larger chains.

Of the ones that are around...


Local Pawn Shop: Will do $25 but wants the opportunity to go to THEIR people first. Frankly, I like to CHOOSE who I work with and don't like the restrictions.

Large Sporting Goods Store: The last time I used them, they acted like I was "lower than dirt" for asking. Then acted like I was a felon because I was ordering an AK. And then they charged me a flat $75.00 Oddly, the Large Sporting Goods Store is owned by my Now Brother-in-Law. I still won't use them.

Chain Stores. I don't know the policies.

Local Store: Treats me with respect. Appreciates my business. People I know in the community. Charges me 10% on transfers. They said they charge others 20%. I wouldn't pay them 20% though. I realize I could do better on price, but there are some intrinsic reason that make it worth it.


-- John

 

[Justin]

Javelin, you have shown absolutely zero evidence that there is price fixing going on in any location.

The closest thing you've got is the fact that a lot of FFL's charge similar prices for transfers. While that may indicate price fixing, it's a long, long way from solid proof.

As to your accusations of "price gouging*" not even Robert Reich would agree with you that such an phenomenon exists in this particular setting.

I agree that an FFL who tries to charge sales tax is breaking the law. But I've never encountered one who tried to do that, and if I did, I would refuse to do business with him.

*An imaginary economic phenomenon if there ever was.

 

[hotpig]

If I tie up my money on a transfer for a customer they are expected to pay me 10% plus 6.25 % tax.

If the customer buys a gun from the net or a nother dealer and I just do the transfer it will be 10.00

If anyone feels that this is too much they can always start their own FFL business and under cut me.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

There are costs involved in doing a background check. If the FFL is making a phone call to conduct the check, they're often put on hold by the government for upwards of an hour. That hour is time that they could have spent doing something more productive. That's what you're paying for.

So 35 bucks an hour to be on hold is less than they're making sweeping the shop floor or trying to make a sale?

If the FFL uses a computer to do the background check, you're paying for the machine used to run the check, the internet connection required to send the info to the feds, and any fees the government may charge for access to the NICS database.

Aren't they paying for that computer and connection anyway, regardless of whether or not I come in with my guaranteed sale? So that computer is sitting idle for the vast majority of time, unless a customer comes in to buy a handgun, OR a customer comes in for a transfer, right?

You seem to be laboring under the belief that there are absolutely zero costs associated with conducting a background check, and that because of it, all FFL's should do them practically for free.

Now $25-$35 for the transfer, which you admit is what the dealers you know charge, is "practically for free"? If that's the case, then why don't they charge the $75 like (apparently) the market will bear?

They're pricing what the market will bear. Most dealers, in my experience, charge between $25-$35. In some cases, FFL's charge ridiculous (note the spelling) fees for transfers because they don't want to put up with the hassle of dealing with guns they didn't sell out of their own inventory.

If they didn't want to put up with the hassle of transfers, well, that's why the word "no" was invented.

Would I go to a shop which charged $75 for the fee? Depends on if there was no other place to go. I personally have done both transfers and direct purchases. The last shop I went to, the owner was great about getting me the pistol I wanted through his source, so I happily bought it from him. Any transfer fee I always include it in the overall cost of the firearm; if I can get a "good deal" on the internet, plus shipping, fees, so on, then I'll probably buy it. If a FLGS can get it for me, even a bit higher cost, I'll buy from them, as long as I find the higher price "reasonable," which, admittedly, is a bit vague.

I'm not trying to berate you personally, Justin; I just think that charging "whatever the market will bear" isn't, in the long run, a sound business choice, even if the business is AT&T, Microsoft, or Joe's Gun Emporium.

And yes, I have had my own business; it was service-oriented, though, so I can't speak directly to a brick-and-mortar store selling merchandise, so as with nearly everything I say, I could be wrong.

 

[Javelin]

You have shown absolutely zero evidence that there is price fixing going on in any location.

*An imaginary economic phenomenon if there ever was.

Are you drinking the Kool-Aid or serving it Justin? I am not a government analyst or IRS field rep if that is what you are getting at (or discrediting my observations and warnings). But when every dealer in say ****,GA are charging $75 or 20% for an FFL or everyone is charging tax ... it raises eyebrows (at least mine and a few others).

Do I have access to their General Ledger/Operating Statements stating that they are in fact giving that unearned tax money to the State... Nope.

My father or mother buying a firearm wouldnt know what is right or wrong with the fees some are charging and business practices they are using are illegal or immoral. Neither would someone new to our shooting sports (I was confused for a while). All I am doing is just asking that people wise up to the business practices of FFL dealers that I have noticed quite increasingly lately.

 

[NGIB]

Maybe we need to apply some business sense here. You're at the FFL and it's probably a place that sells guns. They stay in business because they sell the gun at a price that lets them pay bills and make a little profit. You're probably not buying the gun there for one of two reasons - they don't have the exact model you want or you found it cheaper at Bud's. Do you really blame some dealers from charging a higher price to make the internet store a bit less attractive - I don't.

Yes, I shop around but I've also paid the $35 my local store charges because they're convenient and really nice folks offering me a service...

 

[iiibdsiil]

Don't worry Javelin, I'm with you 100% on this. Too many of these guys act like they are God because they can transfer a firearm. Want to be pissed I bought it somewhere else? Lower your price, as it obviously wasn't what this market was going to bear. Making $50 on selling me something that you have is better then letting that gun sit there for the next 3 years, trust me. I'm in business, I know how this works.

 

[highorder]

If the FFL is making a phone call to conduct the check, they're often put on hold by the government for upwards of an hour.

I have called NICS more than a thousand times; never waited more than 4-5 minutes.

I have worked for 3 FFL's, all in the same city, and all of them charged $25.00 for a transfer.

is this NOT the going rate?

 

[Soybomb]

But when every dealer in say ****,GA are charging $75 or 20% for an FFL or everyone is charging tax ... it raises eyebrows (at least mine and a few others).

So get your license and start doing it for 1/4 of that and rake in the cash! To me thats indicates the costs of doing business in that area more. Just because every transfer in CA is 2-3x more expensive than what I get them for doesn't mean all the dealers in the state have organized a conspiracy to keep transfer prices high, but just that their costs to do so are higher.

Perhaps what you're seeing is a big conspiracy but I don't know what the incentive would be for a pawn shop to not do cheap transfers there and take away all the business from the dealers.