Is it time to boycott FFL scammers?

[craig]

one dealer here charges $36.00 + $5.00 for call in, plus tax on the $41.00 total.

another guy wants $50.00 + $5.00 + tax on total.

another guy charges a flat $25.00 + tax on the $25.00.

the first asked where i was getting transfers and who was it?. i told him how much i was paying, but not where.

the second guy got mad when i laughed my way out the door.

the third gets my business.

free enterprise/capitalism at work.

 

[45Badger]

Stop Hi-Jacking the thread Justin. Information is my point... is'nt that what THR is about?

He's not. He is poking logical holes in your tantrum.

The fact that some FFL dealers are price gouging,

I agree. Vote with your feet and wallet. Tell your friends.

some seem to be price fixing,

I whine about high priced transfers as much as the next guy. I have never seen evidence of price fixing. I am always able to find a reasonable price and develop a good relationship with a gun dealer or two. Or three.

some seem to be charging illegal taxes is concerning to me.

SOME states call it a sales tax. Others lump in personal property or use. When you buy a car out of state (and pay no taxes there), you typically pay in the state in which you register the vehicle. SOME states require you to self report sales tax due to them on stuff you buy out of state think furniture bought in one state (not taxed because you are shiping out of state) and shipped to home state. How many people do that???? MANY people are intellectually and linguistically lazy and incorrectly lump all this into "sales tax".Learn YOUR state's tax codes before you flame the FFL or other retailer.

And maybe the gun community is unaware of this activity.

As always, be a good consumer. Maybe we should stick Ralph Nader on these FFLs

 

[nalioth]

The tax thing depends on who paid for the firearm.

If you send your check or credit card to the out-of-state place that sold the gun, and have it shipped to your FFL dealer, there is, or should be, no sales tax charged.

If the seller is in your state, or has a branch in your state, you have to pay them the sales tax.

But should you have to pay tax TWICE? Example: I live in Houston and order a shotgun from a distributor in Dallas. I use my credit card, pay for the item + tax (since I live in the same state) and have it shipped to a local FFL. Why would I pay my FFL dealer tax on the same item?

If you have your dealer place the order for you, and he pays for it with his own credit card or whatever, then he is required to charge you sales tax when you pay him for the gun.
(Because he is, in effect, buying it and reselling it to you.)

 

[mack]

Wow, I wish I could charge that much. I have an FFL and I charge 20 dollars for a transfer plus background check on a transfer where the buyer has purchased the firearm through another FFL and it is just a transfer. However, when I order a firearm from a wholesaler, I am the buyer and when I sell it to my customer I must per my state law collect taxes on it and pay said taxes. On such sales I make about 20 dollars.

My suggestion is that we work to get the gun control act or 1968 repealed and allow people to buy guns without the FFL, it really would be fine by me. Or failing that work to make it easier to obtain and keep an FFL as due to more strict enforcement of FFL guidelines their are fewer and fewer FFLs. State, city and county ordinances have cost many FFLs their license. They can comply with federal statutes but run afoul of the many state and local ordinances that are written to restrict gun dealers and that must now be complied with before an FFL is issued.

 

[mp510]

FFL transfers require 3 sheets of paper and a phone call. I will let you in on a little something, if "all" your dealers are charging the same high amount, they are most likely price fixing and I implore all THR members to not support this activity and spend a little time looking for those that don't and support them. Even if the price fixing store is a (insert justification) it’s not right to support it by buying from them. Price gouging and scamming needs to stop in the firearms world. Here are a few topics of example:

Remember, by buying a gun online and having it transfered, that is a gun that they aren't going to sell outright. These guys have a business to maintain (rent or mortgage, salaries, inventory, insurance, licensing fees, etc...) and a family to care for (mortgage/rent, car payment, gasoline, heat, medical expenses, kids, wife, food, vacation, etc...) To accuse them of price gouging is a very very bold statement, and could easily be libelous. You have no evidence that they have any agreement to not compete- yet you are claiming that they do anyways. These guys are businessmen, not morons. They know what they competition charges, and pricing the same or similar will help them make the most money (per transaction) without losing business in the long run. Why do you think the gas stations all have the same or similar per gallon prices? Some can charge less and make-up with quantity- but that is a risky move- what if quantity doesn't come? They are there to be in business, not to be your buddy- though many gun dealers are very nice, reasonable, friendly folks.

Finally, I have seen gun stores selling THEIR OWN firearms in states like Colorado (Specialty Sports is one), Tennessee (The Gun Shop is another) and then charge for a background check on top of the purchase you made with them! Once again this is price gouging. And again, should not be supported as it is a phone call and three sheets of paper, one of which you fill out yourself!

The profit margain on guns is pretty low. In some states, there is a state fee for conducting background checks. Last time I was in PA, the PA check fee was $5, and the dealers were collecting it. In Cali, DROS fee is $25 IIRC. I guess the dealer could pay the fee for- reduce his living a bit- but it is perfectly reasonable that you pay the background check fee if one is imposed by the state. I wish we had a small background check fee (maybe $5 per gun, like PA)- they would be able to use that money so that the state polcie background check center could be open on Sundays to keep the automated center running or authorize non-automated transactions. CT has no fee, and closed the DPS NICS POC on Sunday to save money during the last budget crunch.

 

[mp510]

Also, on the tax thing- the dealer is also often required to charge tax on the transfer fee. It's an intrastate service and is often taxable through sales tax. It's like hourly rate for mechanics work- that gets taxed too.

 

[Dravur]

wow

Truly a tempest in a teacup.

If you believe they are charging too much, get your own license and compete. Or go somewhere else. You probably live in a state that has more than one FFL, shop around. Maybe get to know a couple dealers. Maybe there is a reason they charge that much.

Personally, I would charge whatever my time was worth for the hassle. If that hassle was worth $75 to me, then so be it. Maybe I just don't want to do them, so I priced them accordingly. Maybe I don't want that type of business and prefer spending my time on actual customers. You know, the ones that actually buy things at my shop, not just the one guy who waltzes in and wants to bring a gun in to save $10.


You have the opportunity to jump in the marketplace as well. Give it a go.

 

[evan price]

My local gunshop charges me $30 for a transfer, and if I am buying multiples in the same box, he charges me $30 for the entire box. I bought a box of FAL receivers... $30 flat for the whole box.
Since he's the local guy, and treats me and everyone else nice, why wouldn't I pay this???

Compare that to a recent attempt to purchase a Sig and transfer it from another dealer (because my local guy was on vacation).
The dealer I went to sent his FFL info to the place I bought it from. Then he told me the transfer would be $130.

He said that he could order in the same pistol for me from the same place (since he had an account there too...) and he would have to charge me what his regular markup would be if HE ordered it, otherwise, who would buy from him when they could just transfer?
Never mind the fact that he didn't have one, wasn't ordering one for inventory, just he "could" order one if somebody wanted one.
Nevermind it wasn't his money tied up in buying it, all he did was provide an address and pass it through his book.

I had two words for this guy, the second one was "OFF" and I walked out.

 

[Javelin]

Compare that to a recent attempt to purchase a Sig and transfer it from another dealer (because my local guy was on vacation).
The dealer I went to sent his FFL info to the place I bought it from. Then he told me the transfer would be $130.

That is awful! It's just a bully tactic. You see this crap all the time and its become rampant. They are just taking advantage of the law. You see the posts as do I of some new shooter says he bought a Glock/HK/whatever for WAAAY over list price because his FFL told him by the time he paid the shipping and his $50 transfer fee that it would have evened out or some idiot line. We all look at the pic and *think* to ourselves 'I am glad I didnt pay that much'.

So sad but we just shrug it off. Glad you walked. I hope more members walk, tell their friends, and never go back to their shop for anything.

 

[mekender]

my local gun shop averages about online price + $20-25... so i buy new stuff from him...

used, well if he doesnt have what im looking for, i can get a transfer for $20... no hassle, no mess...

 

[TaxPhd]

The fact is price gouging, price fixing, illegally charging taxes are becoming common-place and that is what this thread is about.

Three points:

1) Price gouging does not exist.

2) If you have evidence of price fixing, your state Attorney General's office would like to know.

3) Do you know all the laws of all the states regarding collecting sales tax on out of state purchases? Do you know the laws regarding nexus? States are becoming very aggressive in enforcing sales and use tax laws, and are trying every way possible to make someone who is a party to the transaction in the state (transfer dealer) responsible for collecting and remitting the tax.

Is it possible that some dealers have collected sales tax without remitting it? Sure, it's possible. But so far, you have presented nothing other than speculation.

 

[yhtomit]

For Jorg:

I assume you're using the term "price gouging" colloquially, as there are rather strict legal definitions of what price gouging actually is.

Jorg: I agree with the thrust of your post, but I challenge you (a friendly challenge! ) to point out a strict legal definition of what price gouging actually is. And, in fact, I'd like to be wrong, and for you to be able to do so In the Law & Economics course I took last year, I don't think any such strict definition was offered, just a lot of vague, unhelpful appeals to "reasonableness," etc. Perhaps there are some well-constructed, understandable state statutes which give some more instructive definition.

Relatedly, there's a great episode of the EconTalk podcast in which Mike Munger of Duke talks about "price gouging" -- Munger is always an entertaining speaker (though I know him only from his appearances on this show), and points out the kind of problems with tossing that term around that you seem already to be well aware of. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2007/01/munger_on_price_1.html

Of course, I bet you can tell a lot about a person's feelings about this topic by whether they put "price gouging" in quotation marks as a matter of course ... sort of like "assault weapons." To many people, there's nothing objectionable or troublesome either either phrase.

timothy

 

[JWarren]

JWarren wrote:

The shop I have used in the past charges a % on transfers. Am I getting ripped off? Yep.

Am I using them on my next purchase? Yep.

Why?

There are not a lot of choices of local-owned FFLs around here. Most got run out of business by the larger chains.

Of the ones that are around...


Local Pawn Shop: Will do $25 but wants the opportunity to go to THEIR people first. Frankly, I like to CHOOSE who I work with and don't like the restrictions.

Large Sporting Goods Store: The last time I used them, they acted like I was "lower than dirt" for asking. Then acted like I was a felon because I was ordering an AK. And then they charged me a flat $75.00 Oddly, the Large Sporting Goods Store is owned by my Now Brother-in-Law. I still won't use them.

Chain Stores. I don't know the policies.

Local Store: Treats me with respect. Appreciates my business. People I know in the community. Charges me 10% on transfers. They said they charge others 20%. I wouldn't pay them 20% though. I realize I could do better on price, but there are some intrinsic reason that make it worth it.


-- John

Ignore everything I wrote. I just found out that the FARM SUPPLY store two miles from my home has a FFL. The holder is a good guy in our community, and he charges $25.00 per transfer!

Local Gun Store, Pawn Shop, Large Sporting Goods Store owned by Bro-in-Law, and Large Chain Store are out of luck!

My next two firearms will be ordered this week.


-- John

 

[TaxPhd]

Jorg: I agree with the thrust of your post, but I challenge you (a friendly challenge! ) to point out a strict legal definition of what price gouging actually is.

There are plenty of strict legal definitions. Politicians create them in an effort to pander to their constituencies.

To prove that price gouging exists, you have to prove that some laws of economics DON'T exist. You may as well try to disprove gravity.

 

[langenc]

Sounds like some ebay sellers and the shipping and handling.

 

[JohnBT]

"You see this crap all the time and its become rampant."

I don't see it all the time. I don't think I've ever seen it since the GCA of '68 was passed when I was 18. I'm sure it's happened somewhere, but "all the time"?

"The dealer I went to sent his FFL info to the place I bought it from. Then he told me the transfer would be $130."

Well, duh. Somebody forgot to ask about the price. That's not the dealer's fault, now is it. Nope, it's not price gouging. Heck,I don't even think buying a $75 HDMI cable from Monster is gouging when a $6 HDMI cable from monoprice.com works at least as well.

I know someone who was upside down on their car and really wanted a new truck. They ended up paying way above sticker and signed up for a 16% loan because they had bad credit. That's not price gouging either, just bad shopping skills.

Just say no.

John

 

[K.O.A.M.]

I use Buffalo Bill's in Orlando, Florida. Great bunch of people. I pay $30 + tax for the transfer and $5 for the call in.

 

[tallpaul]

I always love the cheap sons of guns that whine about what another man charges or makes when in alot of those cases thay get retirement and benefits that alot of us can not even choose to contribute to... it is just built in and passed on to the rest of us but that is ok because it benefits THEM... I am not an FFL but I do know that business is business and to offer services cost money and that I or no one esle should be able to tell me what I should be able to charge for my services. If you choose not to buy from me that is fine. I only have issue if they charge a tax that is not. Charging for the call? They need a business line and the liscensing o be able to do that as well as pay the help and the taxes that go along with it. Ya know if ya think it should be cheaper and ya can make money in your local justin why do YOU not start a FFL dealer/storefront and do your cheap value for the dollar tranfers- and see how long you last and if you can indeed be profitable doin it. Profit is NOT a dirty word in america....

 

[PTK]

I suppose I'm one of the lucky few. My FFL does transfers free of charge.

 

[Bailey Guns]

I've got a solution that will solve your problem, Javelin. I suggest all FFL holders (I'm one) stop doing internet transfers. How's that? It works both ways, ya know. Then where would you be? If you wanted a gun you'd be at your local dealer's shop buying/ordering it from him/her at the going market price.

With all due respect, you either have no business sense or you have no idea how low the margins are in the gun business. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about.

I charge $25 for transfers, less for good customers who also buy from me in addition to their internet purchases. I don't charge tax on transfers and I don't charge for background checks.

People like you who want something for nothing really irritate me.

 

[Javelin]

Well from looking at alot of these posts here I can see why FFL dealers charge so much... with the majority of the community feeling that they should I guess is why they do.

I've got a solution that will solve your problem, Javelin. I suggest all FFL holders (I'm one) stop doing internet transfers. How's that? It works both ways, ya know. Then where would you be? If you wanted a gun you'd be at your local dealer's shop buying/ordering it from him/her at the going market price.

With all due respect, you either have no business sense or you have no idea how low the margins are in the gun business. Either way, you don't know what you're talking about.

I charge $25 for transfers, less for good customers who also buy from me in addition to their internet purchases. I don't charge tax on transfers and I don't charge for background checks.

People like you who want something for nothing really irritate me.

Do I.. am I? Wow I did not realize I have no background in business. Jeeze thanks for the info. I don't feel that is very friendly Baily. And how dare you make personal attacks on this forum? My credentials in business are not in question. Yours are.

Oh and one other thing. I have more than earned my paychecks and I pay for what I own. I'm just sick of people taking advantage of others (which is what made me choose my former profession).

 

[tallpaul]

what do you do for a living there javelin?

 

[waterhouse]

Javelin,

You have repeatedly accused some dealers of price gouging and price fixing. Can you please define these terms?

 

[Bailey Guns]

Well from looking at alot of these posts here I can see why FFL dealers charge so much... with the majority of the community feeling that they should I guess is why they do.

No, Javelin, it's a conspiracy among dealers to pi$$ you off and steal you're hard-earned money.

 

[Bailey Guns]

Now that I think about it, you're nonsensical posts have inspired me to raise my transfer fee to $30.