Is it time to stop supporting FFL scammers?

[Javelin]

Friends,

I want to take a moment and share something concerning with you. There is a new scum that has been seeping into our competition shooting sports and outdoor hunting world. They start by filling out a few ATF Forms and begin scamming upstanding gun owners under an FFL Gun Store. I have been noticing it personally and after reading some posts regarding FFL transfer fees, background checks, price fixing, and even tax ID fraud I feel we are seeing a real downward trend!

This is happening in almost every city and the gun owners (us) usually try to look the other way and in some way try to justify it that an FFL transfer should cost $50,$75,or even $100+ because of (insert 'whatever' justification). FFL transfers require 3 sheets of paper and a phone call. I will let you in on a little something, if "all" your dealers are charging the same high amount, they are most likely price fixing and I implore all THR members to not support this activity and spend a little time looking for those that don't and support them. Even if the price fixing store is a (insert justification) it’s not right to support it by buying from them. Price gouging and scamming needs to stop in the firearms world. Here are a few topics of example:

Some THR members are reporting FFL dealers try to charge a % of the sale of the firearm you bought and are trying to transfer. I have seen this myself and made it a point to tell them neither I nor anyone else I know will buy from them. This % charging is a scam. Again, its 3 sheets of paper and a phone call, you already paid for the firearm, they have nothing to do with it past government regulation of a background check.

Some THR members are reporting FFL dealers trying to charge you tax on the firearm. This is a scam. The tax license they have (or may not have) is for State sales on goods sold by their store as reported to the IRS. This is actually a felony on the dealer to be scamming gun owners in such a way. I for one feel that if you ever experience this you MUST contact your Secretary of State to report them (and notify the THR/gun community).

Finally, I have seen gun stores selling THEIR OWN firearms in states like Colorado (Specialty Sports is one), Tennessee (The Gun Shop is another) and then charge for a background check on top of the purchase you made with them! Once again this is price gouging. And again, should not be supported as it is a phone call and three sheets of paper, one of which you fill out yourself!

Please DO support those FFL dealers that are upstanding and ditch the ones that are not. DO NOT over pay for an FFL transfer (many charge the standard courtesy $10-$15 for the service) for those dealers that are scamming tell them why you are no longer supporting them (i.e. price gouging, fixing, etc). I understand in some states that taxes, fees, and other charges apply so it is important to know your local laws. But those FFL's that are robbing the gun community while we, the loyal firearm owners justifying it, needs to end.

If you know of a shop that is scamming customers please feel free to post it here (phone number can be helpful too). Its time we let these guys know what they are doing is in some cases illegal and that we as the majority of the upstanding gun community will not put up with it.

If you need to find an FFL dealer in your area you can easily do a search on the links below. Be sure to ask #1 how much they charge and #2 when they are available.

I again implore you to spend the time to search out and support those who are moral dealers. I hope other THR members share in this.




Links to registered FFL dealers;
http://www.auctionarms.com/help/fflnetwork.cfm
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
http://listings.shotgunnews.com/fflguide/http://www.sellguns.com/ffl/map.asp

 

[Fred Fuller]

A reminder- Keep this one ON TOPIC, avoid personal attacks and the thread will live longer...

lpl/nc

 

[Mad Man]

Deja vu.

Its a free market, if they're all over priced then its ripe for the picking

No, it's not a free market.

15 years ago, there were something like 250,000 FFL dealers. Now there's something like 50,000.

I shouldn't have to point out on this board that selling and buying guns is one of the most heavily regulated markets.

My father or mother buying a firearm wouldnt know what is right or wrong with the fees some are charging and business practices they are using are illegal or immoral. Neither would someone new to our shooting sports (I was confused for a while).

If your father or mother don't know the ins and outs of what's going on, how likely is it that they'll be purchasing their first firearm off of Gunbroker or calling a distributor up to give them a credit card number and the address of a gun dealer?

What does buying something over the internet have to do with how one is treated by a local FFL dealer? Making things as difficult as possible for newbies is exactly what the gun culture should not be doing, or rationalizing (but unfortunately, often excels at).

Our future depends on getting as many people as possible to become gun owners and shooters. (Or more accurately, your future. I've given up on trying to get new people into the gun culture; poor customer service from FFLs being one of the reasons. Good luck with that whole RKBA thing).

 

[bruss01]

Gun dealerships are making a huge mistake by gouging.

If a customer buys a gun online, he hasn't taken up your time or caused you to have to re-stock inventory. He hasn't badgered your salesperson with tons of questions and kept him from other duties. He is there not to make a purchase, but to perform the legally required duty of receiving title to that which he has already paid for. Now is your chance to offer him an experience that will have him coming back to you time and again. Treat him with respect. Don't claim you have to charge tax on a sale you never made, that's ridiculous. Tax is between the buyer, the seller, and the state - not the guy who fills out a few sheets of paper for $25 or whatever the state-mandated fee is. Don't claim you're entitled to a percentage of the sale - again, ludicrous. Don't hold a man's property for ransom, they don't like that much.

I've had a number of very bad experiences with FFL's who seem to have some kind of God-complex. Questioning my taste, questioning why I want a certain firearm, really feeling the "power" of the fact that I have to play their game and put up with their BS or I'm not leaving with my gun that is already bought and paid for. Charge for this, charge for that, oh, and of course the "late day fee" because it's after 10AM - ***?! I'm really sick of the rude treatment, the personal insults and discourtesy, and the gouging like I should be somehow grateful they're willing to do the paperwork for me AT ALL.

I have never experienced this from a seller who sold to me on-line, and I have found a humble man who is content to perform the simple act of filling out a few simple forms and hand me my new firearm - all within the state-proscribed rate schedule. Is it any wonder those high-and-mighty brick & mortar stores are struggling? They are their own worst enemy. Instead of befriending the new gun owner, they try to shaft him thinking it will be the only time he darkens their door. Yeah, with treatment like that, no wonder. duh! Treat that customer with respect, treat him like an investment you can cultivate, and he'll be back time and again... for a gun case, for ammo, for shooting supplies, cleaning jags and friendly advice. But no... the focus is all on the short term, the single transaction. No wonder the traditional gun store is struggling these days.

I'm sure there are some good ones out there, FFL's and gun stores. Frankly, after the first few, I've stopped looking. They had a shot at me and they blew it. I've found something that works and I don't have to put up with the BS anymore. Ever wonder how many hundered or thousand more like me there are? Gee, those are customers that might be buying stuff from you every day, Mr. Gun Czar. And that's a lot of money you will never see.

And although my FFL charges the minimum required state fee, I always bring something "extra" when I come to see him - a Starbucks gift card, a bottle of wine, some good chocolates or recently - a tin of Williams & Sonoma high-end hot cocoa mix. It ends up costing me the same as some of the gougers, but there is a real relationship there and a feeling of mutual respect. That's how I think it SHOULD be.

 

[Kurt_D]

I'll pay for quality. Here's my example:

I have a friend who used to use a local pawn shop to do transfers. The Good: They charged $20 which is good for the area and about average over all (gathering from people's post on forums). He'll even accept from an individual, most won't for what ever reasons. The Bad: They guy is only open 3 days a week for a few hours and even then just randomly decides to be closed. He doesn't pick up packages in a timely manner, you firearm could sit at the post office for another day. The most recent transaction involved my friend waiting 3 weeks to recieve his pistol, after it was shipped. The schedule alone who drive me nuts. He also has no selection.

I've been using another local shop. They charge $25, which is good for the area and supposedly a little high overall (according to the forums). The Bad: they only accept shippments from FFLs (which hasn't been an issue for me, yet) and they charge a little more. The Good: they are open Mon-Sat 9-6, always (add a few hours on Sun during X-mas). My stuff comes USPS on Sat, I can pick it up that day. My stuff never sits in a PO box. I'm in and out with no wait and they actually have a selection of goods. I think that's worth $5 more for good hours, no hassel, clean store with a stock of new goods.

 

[loop]

For years I did my transfers at a shop run by two old men who really only had it as a hangout for old gun freaks. They charged $10 for a transfer, but the FFL holder died and it closed a couple years ago.
I bought a gun online a couple weeks ago because I've looked for it for a long time and haven't seen that particular model in a shop or at a show. We live between two small towns and there are only four gun shops within 80 miles. The first one I went to is so arrogant I can't stand them. They know more about guns than I ever will, but I have more guns in my house than they do in the store. To top it off they want $50 to do a transfer. The next closest shop is the highest priced in the area and they charge $50 for a transfer.
Going the other direction, about 30 miles away is the best shop in the area. They have a large inventory, on premises smith and prices that are competitive with shopping online, but when I asked how much they wanted to do it transfer it was $43.50. No idea where they came up with that.
About 40 miles away is a small shop with about 20 guns and a smattering of parts, ammo and accessories. The guy who runs it is kind of a radical and just plain a gun nut. We like a lot of the same guns and I just stop by and bs from time to time. He charges $25. I don't mind paying $25 if the people are good. This time the guy even stayed open late to wait for me to come pick it up. I tried to find something else to buy just to help him out, but couldn't find anything I needed or wanted - it's a very small shop.
But, he gets first shot at my business from now on. I don't mind if he has to order something and I have to wait a bit. I have enough guns. I could have three or four out of commission at the same time and it wouldn't change anything. I'd still have plenty to shoot of whatever caliber or type I want.
Anyway, the timing of this is kind of funny. It's been about two weeks since that gun came in and I decided that from now on I go to the little shop that is the farthest away first.
It really isn't a boycott, just favoring the business that does the most for me personally. I want to help them out a little if I can.

 

[serrano]

I'm in Southern California - FFL prices are out of control. The 2 shops down the street are asking $180 and $150 for a transfer. The last shop I did a Private Party Transfer in asked $80 for an FFL transfer and charged $40 for a PPT (It's limited to $35 by law, I didn't argue it.). I've finally found a pawn shop 30 miles away staffed by a serious gun nut who charges $25, is a genuinely nice guy who keeps a nice inventory of used guns, and will get my business from this point forward.

 

[bogie]

So, check http://www.gunshopfinder.com/ and find someone. The guy who runs that web site is an old-timer here.

Now... SHEESH.

Guys, if you don't like a price on something, don't buy it. If you don't like what someone charges for a service, go elsewhere.

That said, these guys also are doing a lot more than "3 pages of writing." They get nice visits from the guys from F-Troop, who sort of insist that everything is accurate, or else. Personally, I don't have a problem with them charging.

 

[evan price]

Asked, responded to, got out of hand, and LOCKED already.
Does anyone really think this won't be a repeat?

 

[tallpaul]

The comment about the alphabet boys and the additional cost in sweat,time and storage of said records ley alone overhead costs is likely lost on the whiners. The best solution without reminding folks of their inability to see reality is that you can go elsewhere. I also see that USUALLY the real high prices for transfers seem to come from the really restrictive areas that likely have additional local cost involved whether it be high taxes/low volume etc. As has also been pointed out and is likely again lost in translation - there is a big difference between a business and a hobbiest.

as far as the set price for a transaction- I believe you can charge the max price set by the law for the call but there is no reason you can not add a handling fee on top. I am sure any of the guys shouting rip off would LOVE it if someone else started saying they are paid to much and should not be paid more than an illegal- after all ya can get the same for less elsewhere.

I think the free market does a really good job at weedin out the rip off artists... they will not survive. The gun hobby is just that a hobby- while it may be a "right" there is nothing saying that if you can not afford it that someone else should subsidize you.

The real root of this mess is as another poster suggested. The number of FFL's has been decimated as planned by the atf and the locals who shut down MANY ffls that were hobbiests. Now ya will get to pay more. If you have a beef get the gov't to change. Likely ya whiners have never had the joy of dealing with your uncle or his brothers... I don't think ya ever get paid enough to deal with the stress of them- or the whiner customers who consistantly think nothing of tying up your time and resources only to buy from somewhere else for 5.00 less... I have seen it time and time again.

 

[Hawk]

The problem hasn't really manifested around here - the competition is brutal on newly manufactured mainstream product so there's little in the way of incentive to transfer that sort of thing.

Used product and special order stuff doesn't seem to have the potential for hacking off the storefront FFL.

I mostly use a training firm that solicits 20.00 transfers for CHL holders - a nickel more for non-CHLs.

I do see to it that the product I'm transferring isn't something the local dealer stocks or would be inclined to stock. That's just common courtesy.

 

[Mad Man]

The best solution without reminding folks of their inability to see reality is that you can go elsewhere.

Sure, if I want to drive an hour in any direction.

The one gunshop in my town refuses to do transfers -- period.

Because I already own enough guns (dozens) to the point that I'm not buying much anymore, it doesn't affect me that much. But it's one of the reasons I don't bother to order off the 'net, even if there's something I really really want to add to my collection.

If I was a newbie who was interested in getting a gun but not really passionate about it (and, for whatever reason, going the 'net route), the frustration of trying to find an FFL to do the transfer, and then of trying to find an FFL to do the transfer for reasonable fee without jumping through hoops, would probably make me decide that gun ownership is not really worth it and give up on the whole idea. Turn these people off, and the future of RKBA can be written off as we fail to replace our numbers.

I believe in free markets as much as anybody. But don't let your blind faith make you believe that the gun market is a free market. It's not a free market. I should not have to point out (again) that it is one of the most heavily regulated sectors of society. The capitalist mantra of "you're free to take your business elsewhere" does not really apply.


Question: Did these kind of practices exist before 200,000 FFL holders were clintoned out of the business?

 

[NGIB]

Good lord, get yourself an FFL and do transfers for free and good karma shall be with you for life...

 

[ieszu]

Despite the regulation, it is still a free market, if you don't like the business, go elsewhere.

I know for a fact of 10-20 FFL's who have gone out of business because of internet shopping, not that I am against technological progress, but one FFL I know did nothing but transfers at the end.... maintaining an inventory was too expensive if nothing got bought.

Whiners want to buy their guns at wholesale prices, and yet have a massive selection to choose from. That is insanity of the highest nature, and not the way a retail business works. We do not double our wholesale prices (like most businesses do), we offer advice and suggestions (although sometimes BS) and we provide a service.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else or get your own FFL.... My customers know me, trust me, and only order online when it is something I can not get.... because they don't care about a $5 difference in price when all fees get added up, so long as a friendly place exists.

 

[Spot77]

Excessive pricing on ANYTHING is detrimental to the market. High prices on transfers are usually an easy way for an ffl to say, "I'd rather you bought the gun from me, and I don't care for messin' around with YOUR paperwork for a gun I ain't sellin'!"

There is no market driven reason for an FFL to charge more than $50 for a transfer.

I've found one here in Maryland that will transfer guns for $25 which INCLUDES the $10 State police background check fee. Now THAT's somebody that wants my business. And they're going to get it.


If anybody wants to know who this dealer is, send me a pm and I'll tell you. I don't know if it's appropriate for me to be pimpin' them out in this thread.

 

[CoRoMo]

You pay for what you get. Just shop around and find a good guy, or get your own FFL.
Some of the better named shops in my area charge a lot. Most won't do a transfer at all if they can acquire that make and model of firearm for you, of coarse they can't sell it for the same low price.
Some charge $40 for first gun, $20 for any additional. I get the feeling that they don't want to really do transfers at all. That's why I never go there. Maybe they're afraid of some BATFE sting regarding a transfer or something, but they just seem hesitant to do one unless they can charge an arm & a leg.
Found a nice little pawn shop a couple towns over that does them for me for $20 and the price stays the same even for multiple gun transfers, so I'm happy. They don't call me when the gun shows up, so I have to stay on them and call to ask whether it has arrived, but like I said, you pay for what you get.
My dad has a better option. His local shop stopped charging him because the guy is a friend of my dad's and didn't feel right about charging $20 so often, so he just does it for nothing. However, Dad always 'tips' him $10 for the trouble.

 

[Dravur]

didnt we..

beat this dead horse allready?

Do we get to bring it up over and over and tilt at it repeatedly until Don Quixote comes to our rescue?

If you don't like someone's prices, don't use them. How hard is this to figure out? Let the market work. If the OP has a personal gripe about this, fantastic, but this has been dealt with. Why bring it up again?

 

[Bailey Guns]

I don't mind doing transfers for people. In a sense, I see it as an easy $25. Sometimes it's only $10. Whatever. Oftentimes, customers for whom I do transfers will stop by with goodies, buy me lunch, a 6-pack, etc... I have a great working relationship - with some customers turning into lifelong friends - with most of my customers. I like that.

However, most of my customers also understand I run a business...even my good friends. For the longest time it was difficult for me to actually feel comfortable charging my friends for things they wanted.

On the other hand, you have the guys that think simply because you run a small shop you're obviously over-priced and prices are always cheaper online or at the big-box stores.

True story: I had a guy call me one day who stated he never dealt with local businesses because they were all "out to get people's money" (personally, I thought that was the general idea of being in business). The guy continues and says, "But I thought I'd give you a shot before I buy this gun I want." After an opening like that I was, to say the least, not really interested in doing a lot to help the guy out. But I listened to what he had to say. Turns out he wanted a lever action rifle from Uberti or Pedersoli or some other replica-type manufacturer. I don't recall the specifics. He said, "If you can beat $1395 delivered for that gun I'll buy it from you, but I know I'm probably just wasting my time. Nobody up here ever beats online prices." Anyway, I look up the gun which is in stock at my favorite distributor, wholesales for a little over $700, MSRP was about $900. Now normally, I would have quoted the guy about $800 for the gun, plus tax. This guy was a schmuck, arrogant and rude and just generally aggravated me. I told him it was his lucky day because I could save him "a lot of money". I'd do the gun for $1350 out the door! He gave me his credit card number, I charged it, ordered the gun, delivered it 3 days later and he was as happy as could be. He bought one other new gun from me a few months later and was actually quite friendly and got the gun for a very fair price from me (the normal 10% - 15% markup). Then he moved away. I would never have quoted someone such an outrageous price for that particular gun. But that guy got exactly what he asked for and it didn't bother me a bit. I've never had a similar experience.

Now I'm not denying there are dealers out there who don't engage in the best business practices. That's obvious. But the whole "bad business" thing isn't limited to gun dealers. You can find crooks everywhere. And that includes on the customer end. Not to mention the guy who wants something for nothing the first time he comes into the store like he's the best customer in the world just for walking into the joint. In my opinion, good customers are the most valuable assest I have and I do everything I can to maintain a good and honest relationship with them. On the other hand, the one-time gun-buyer who wants me to sell him a Glock 23 for $469 because that's what he "can get it online for", is pretty much not gonna get a lot of cooperation from me until he understands this whole business relationship is a two-way street. I have one customer (a 70+ year old lady if you can believe it) who spent in excess of $80,000 in my store in the span of about 2 1/2 years. She never argues price (not seriously, anyway) and I never let her leave without a free box of ammo, a free pistol case, whatever. I've even personally delivered two safes to her home free of charge. That is a valuable customer. Unfortunately, she too, has moved away.

Here's the anatomy of an average gun sale: I go online and buy a standard Glock pistol for about $440 from a distributor. It generally costs $445 to $450 to just get it delivered to my shelf. To be competitive I sell that gun for right around $500. So, my profit is about $50, right? Wrong. A portion of that $50 has to pay for: rent, insurance, computers, fax lines, phone lines, office supplies, bank fees, typically the customer will pay with a credit card for which I'm charged a rate of 1.5% to 3% depending on the type of card (qualifying to non-qualifying...how do you think the CC company can afford to give you those Cabela's points?), heating, electricity, water, accountant's fees, unemployment insurance, worker's comp insurance, and on, and on, and on. Someone mentioned that dealers have to pay those anyway whether they do transfers or not. Well, that's true. I have to pay all of those costs whether I sell one gun per month or one thousand guns per month.

So many people here seem to be under the impression that guns are expensive and dealers charge outrageous prices. For the most part that is absolutely not true. At least not when compared to actual MSRP. And if it is, for crying out loud, stop whining and go somewhere else. Most new guns sold actually result in very little true profit. They're a break-even proposition at best and I can tell you I stock and sell new guns simply as a convenience to customers. New guns are one of the biggest bargains on the planet and it's simply due to competition.

And there's a lot more that goes into a transfer than just having a customer fill out a form and then making a phone call. I have to insure all laws are complied with. I have to deal with private individuals who don't provide a name and address on the package so I have to actually research where the gun comes from. I have to deal with the trash and ridiculous ways people wrap guns for shipping. I know it sounds petty but sometimes just unpacking a gun that some knucklehead has shipped to me takes 10 to 15 minutes just to clean up and dispose of the mess. Not to mention there is oftentimes no indication of who the gun is for. Nothing. I get several guns per month that are just a gun in a box. Nothing else. Even after telling the transfer customer my rules for doing the transfer. I can't even send it back because I don't know where it came from. I have to spend time tracking that information down. I have to worry that the customer won't go out and shoot himself with his new gun that he just had transferred through my store and then blame me and sue me because of his genetic deficiencies.

I rarely hear of these issues from those who complain that dealers are charging too much for a transfer. They see the issue as simply $25 or $50 or whatever out of their pocket. They are incapable of seeing the "big picture".

I get really tired of that. So, keep this in mind. The dealer who is close to you, who is fair and honest and charges $25 - $50 to do your transfer is actually doing you a favor, too, when he does that transfer on the gun you've wanted for a long time and finally found from an online source. Especially if it's the only game around.

It's a two-way street, folks.

 

[hotpig]

Starting up a locked thread again often causes agitation to moderators.

 

[Spot77]

didnt we..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

beat this dead horse allready?

Do we get to bring it up over and over and tilt at it repeatedly until Don Quixote comes to our rescue?

If you don't like someone's prices, don't use them. How hard is this to figure out? Let the market work. If the OP has a personal gripe about this, fantastic, but this has been dealt with. Why bring it up again?

Why bring anything up again? I mean really, haven't we heard the opinion of every last gun owner in the world and haven't we solved every possible firearm related issue?

Jeez, if you don't want to talk about it, skip to the next thread.

Maybe some new user will chime in with a different perspective. Somebody who hasn't been here since the birth of Christ and just might have something different to say.

Otherwise, we should just shut down THR for good since we know everything from everybody already.

More threads get locked because people complain that we're discussing something that's already been discussed. Less complaining would equal less locked threads.

(And I suppose I'm just as guilty for complaining about somebody's complaining.)

 

[XDKingslayer]

Please allow me to play the devil's advocate just so everyone sees the other side. I'm not an FFL, but it's not entirely impossible to see their side.

First the transfer fees. You want me to do the leg work on a gun you bought from a competitor. Be it online or from another gun store, they are still my competitor. Essentially what you are doing is walking into my store, asking me to handle something you brought in from a competitor instead of buying it from me. I'm sure you got it for a better price, but who's license is getting revoked if there is a mistake on those 3 pieces of paper you mentioned? Me.

Do you walk into Target and ask the cashier to bring product in from Wal-Mart because it's cheaper at Wal-Mart but Target is closer?

They can charge whatever they want for transfers. You're free to shop elsewhere.

As far as tax or background checks. The BATFE has these guys scared to death of losing their business that they have worked very hard to create. How many of them simply don't want to take the chance or even don't know they don't have to do the background check or charge tax. Tax laws are changing with online sales. Where I work, we have to pay tax on some things I buy online in different states. If I bought something in Pa. and Pa. didn't charge me tax because it's an online sale, then I have to pay Florida sales tax even though I didn't buy it in Florida...Maybe these guys simply don't know.

Don't get me wrong, there ARE guys out there trying to take advantage. But how many of them simply don't know the laws or are overdoing it out of fear for the BATFE?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Very good XDKingslayer. Yeah, I got a hoot out of the notion of the thread. Basically, the OP is calling for a boycott. Well let's see, if you already purchased your gun elsewhere, then you bypassed the local dealer. It isn't a boycott, but it is essentially the same thing. You didn't spend money with the local dealer on the gun. Granted, your local dealer won't have all the guns you want, but you still did not buy from him.

So now you can not only boycot the local guy by not buying from him, you can boycott doing transfers through him. You go girl! That will teach them. Not only are you buying guns elsewhere, but you can take your transfer business elsewhere too!

Me thinks few stores are getting rich on transfers. The boycott isn't going to amount to piddly.

 

[Dravur]

Spot

This wasn't a thread that was brought up again after a while and fluffed up with new data. This topic was literally closed within the last day and the OP brought it up again as it is his personal windmill. It was closed. The OP brought it up again immediately.

I guess I could keep bringing up X thread even if it was closed over and over again, day after day. But, that is the essence of beating a dead horse.

 

[ieszu]

Just because this thread will be locked in about 5 seconds (I hope).....

In Mother Russia, the scammer FFL's you!

Sorry, but with the JMB comments on the other thread, this just seemed so perfect....

 

[Spot77]

This wasn't a thread that was brought up again after a while and fluffed up with new data. This topic was literally closed within the last day and the OP brought it up again as it is his personal windmill. It was closed. The OP brought it up again immediately.

I guess I could keep bringing up X thread even if it was closed over and over again, day after day. But, that is the essence of beating a dead horse.

Understood.

Although in post #2 a Mod already checked in and said it's fine to discuss.

And I see your point - perhaps the same person shouldn't immediately bring up the same topic if a recent thread went awry. But again, a mod already said we're good to go, so I don't see the point of people chiming in with 10 "IBTL" posts.

I never saw the first thread on this topic, and I had something to contribute to this thread (via my first post, not my recent whining about the whiners posts .) So there's obviously some benefit. If one doesn't wish to discuss a topic again, simply move to a topic that does provide some interest.