Is it time to stop supporting FFL scammers?

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A Not-So-Eloquent Analogy

Back in 1999, UPS mandated that all handguns must be shipped Priority Overnight. FedEx soon did the same.

This added about $25 to the cost of shipping a handgun.

How many of us were saying things like: If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere. It's a free market. The free market will bear what the consumer is willing to pay. Quite whining and start your own shipping company. Etc etc etc.
 
A Not-So-Eloquent Analogy

Back in 1999, UPS mandated that all handguns must be shipped Priority Overnight. FedEx soon did the same.

This added about $25 to the cost of shipping a handgun.

How many of us were saying things like: If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere. It's a free market. The free market will bear what the consumer is willing to pay. Quite whining and start your own shipping company. Etc etc etc.
If I were here, I would have ;)

Speaking of which your friendly neighborhood ffl can ship your handgun priority mail if you're looking to save a few bucks.
 
The first thread was closed because of personal attacks.

I don't have a problem with leaving this one open, so long as the discussion doesn't turn into a flame war.

However, just because the thread remains open, don't read it as an endorsement of shoddy use of legal and/or economic terms, or poor understanding of the way markets work.
 
Oh good, I'm glad this thread didn't get locked yet, as I didn't get to add my VERY IMPRORTANT opinion and questions to the last one.

First off, can anyone tell me how hard it is and what you have to do to get an FFL in CA? I would be very interested in that for many reasons.

Also, can anyone tell me what all is required money and fee wise to do a transfer in Southern CA? I really have no idea what all goes into it, and would probably feel a little less "gypped" at giving my local store $100 for a transfer. Some of what the dealers in here have said, have helped me understand it a little better, but I would like to know a little more about the CA specifics. A PM would be fine with any of this info also.

That being said, I would like to mention that I love my local store. They are very freindly and knowledgable, and know me by my first name even though I have only bought one gun from them. Of course being the guy that bought a shotgun, and had to get my money back the same day cause my wife was mad probably helped that, lol. I get the feeling from them that they really just don't want to do transfers so that's why they charge so much. Of course, since I know there prices are so good on new stuff, it defeats the purpose of buying new online anyay, and I think that's how they want it. Of course the problem is that I am interested in getting used stuff to save some money, and the extra transfer fee defeats that purpse. Luckily I found a pawn shop that only charges $20 +DROS, but I am torn with buying used and just buying new to support my store.

And I think this is a very valid topic that people can have a good discussion about. As has been said before, why should we bother discussing anything if we shouldn't be "beating a dead horse"? I didn't get to say anything in the first thread, and I wanted to. If we can keep the flaming and arguing out of it, there is no reason it should be locked.
 
Here in Oregon the state charges the FFL $10.00 just to call in and run your name, drivers license number and address through their computer. There are several dealers here that only charge $20.00 for the transfer of an internet bought weapon. That's $10.00 for the state and $10.00 for the dealer. If you buy from the dealer, he only charges the $10.00 he has to pay the state. I ship pistols by Fedex all the time, three day economy. I remove the slide from the frame, and if asked what is in the box I reply "gun parts". I insure the package for the full retail value of the weapon.
 
I ship pistols by Fedex all the time, three day economy. I remove the slide from the frame, and if asked what is in the box I reply "gun parts". I insure the package for the full retail value of the weapon.

unless you are shipping to the a dealer or a manufacturer etc you are committing felonies. If you are shipping the reciever/frame you ARE SHIPPING A FIREARM... if going to individuals without the proper licensing you can get busted and prosecuted. PERIOD!!!

Info like that will get some newbie in big trouble! otherwise I really would not care much...
 
After reading all the horror stories I need to post this.

I have it good and so should you. Here is the DEAL for Ohio buyers. He's only about a 1/2hr from my favorite outdoor range, Tusco Rifle Club near Dover. Smaller shop/quick stop/bait store combo. Does transfers for $1. Will do your consignment for $5. He handles the clubs transfers for the yearly raffle for the last 3 years. May not be the biggest, most convenient or well stocked but no one can say he's over priced.

PENN STATION
Greg Rennicker - Owner
2586 St. Rt. 39 NE
New Philadelphia, OH 44663
330-364-7668

Only used him a couple of time but never ran into a problem.
 
TallPaul, thank you. I should have been VERY specific in that I only ship to the manufacturer for warranty work. Sales are handled by my FFL to the buyers FFL. Again, thanks.:banghead:
 
The two local gunstores are both gone now. I asked why. Apparently they could not stock as much merchandise as the "interweb" and couldn't get by on transfers. So no need to boycott 'em , just gotta drive outta town and find others to boycott.
 
I would not go to an FFL who charged an excessive amount. Excessive to me would be over $30. I'm lucky I guess, my FFL here owns a pawn shop, frequents the boards a lot, and only charges $15 per day. So if you have more than one firearm delivered on the same day, it's still only $15.
 
Not saying I can justify and FFL charging $50 for a transfer but the FFL does do work and should be compensated. In oregon it costs the FFL $10 for the NICs check. Also the FFL has send the other FFL its paper work. Then the FFL has to receive the Firearm, Log it into their inventory. Provide and Have you fill out all the peper work, Call it into NICs and then log it out of their inventory and maintain all the records of the transaction.
 
One small shop locally charges $25. the guys a little terse, opinionated & Knows of what he speaks!!(Really). he's my first stop for most items. A larger friendlier shop charges $50.00 not sure why but he's the only game in that particurar town. They don't seem as gun savvy but, like I said, friendlier. A local pawn shop charge $0 to send, $20 to recieve but he's a gas bag. If he has somthing in stock I like I'll buy it anyway I just won't discuss the pros & cons of my decission w/ him. The bigger dealers in Tucson all seem to charge $100+ for transfers. Pays to shop around. Everybodies in business to make a living.
 
If you think that you can make a money at $20 a transaction, and everyone in your immediate area is charging $100 a transaction, aren't you in the position to make a heck of a lot of money?

If you're right, get an FFL, a phone line, a copier, and start picking out the stereo components for your new Porsche. Wait a year, franchise it, and retire.

On the other hand, you may just be wrong about the cost of those transactions. :)

Mike
 
Jeez, if everyone around here was charging $100 a pop, I'd get my FFL in a heartbeat. Put an add in the paper for $50 transfers and wait. Heck, I might not even get out of my jammies. Transferees would just have to deal with it. I'm sure their vision would return to normal after a while...

Brad
 
Yawn.

And Sheesh...

Big Stores Are Bad because they stock everything and sell it for a small percentage of profit, and drive the little dealers out of business.

Small Dealers Are Bad, because they have to make enough money to keep the doors open.

And the same geniuses will be crying when Wal-Mart tells them they won't do a transfer, and the nearest Bass Pro quits carrying guns, and the last small dealer within a 50 mile radius closes his doors...
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20070122153249/www.john-ross.net/wal-mart.htm


Wal-Mart: Consumer Savior or the Scourge of Small Businesses? or
Sam Walton Didn't Invent the Free Market
By John Ross


Copyright 2003 by John Ross. Electronic reproduction of this article freely permitted provided it is reproduced in its entirety with attribution given.


On a shooting-oriented discussion board recently, I entered a discussion where some posters were saying that people in general and shooters in particular shouldn't patronize Wal-Mart and other "big-box stores," as they were driving small merchants, especially gunshops, out of business.

Economist Joseph Schumpeter coined a marvelously accurate term called "creative destruction."

It refers to the fact that in the free market, there is always someone figuring out new ways to provide a good or a service that either does something entirely new, or, more likely, does something old in a better way. The new creativity inevitably destroys some part of "the way things were." Ever hear of Keuffel & Esser? They had the major part of the slide rule market for students and engineers. Gone. Ever hear of National Cash Register? They changed their name to NCR Corp. because they don't make cash registers any longer. They make and sell all manner of the things that stores use to handle transactions today, like scanners, self-checkout equipment, etc., and are thriving.

Great fortunes were once made in America in textiles. Then canals and shipping. Then railroads. Then banking. Then newspapers. Then retailing. Then oil. Then automobiles. Then consumer goods. Then computers and software. Then telecommunications. Tomorrow it will be something else. This is not to imply that telecommunications replaced textiles, or anything like that, but that the only constant in the market of consumer needs and desires is change. The free market is a continuously running play with an ever-changing cast.

We tend to remember the past in a much more forgiving light than we would if we could actually relive it. America has ALWAYS had people driven out of business by someone who figured out something that consumers would prefer. During the online discussion of Small Shop vs Big Chain, one poster gave the example of how he got much better price and service getting a tire on his lawn tractor replaced at a small shop because they mounted it for free, whereas Wal-Mart wanted a mounting fee that made their total price higher than the independent. Another man told of needing a battery for a trolling motor, and getting excellent advice on the best battery type, which the shop ordered for him, whereas Wal-Mart didn't carry much selection, had little sales knowledge, and wasn't much help.

The tire and battery examples given above are good evidence of people who haven't been driven out of business by Wal-Mart, and why they haven't. The butcher/meat shop I frequent here in St. Louis is 2 miles from a Sam's Club, and this shop just took over the storefront next door and doubled their space! I guarantee they didn't expand because their business had fallen off due to Sam's selling meats. I guess the butcher shop is offering something Sam's isn't, that enough people like me want and are willing to pay for.

EVERY successful business owner is constantly trying to identify needs and fill them. Near the Sam's Clubs and Wal-Marts in my area are hundreds of small businesses that offer something the box stores don't. These successful small businesses occupy storefronts vacated by establishments that continued to try to sell slide rules in a world of cheap pocket calculators.

In the late 1940s, many big-name authors (like Hemingway) were outraged at the tremendous success of the "hack" Mickey Spillane. How DARE he give returning servicemen a quick, exciting, non-literary read, and do it for 25 cents?

Today, I hear people bemoan the fact that big publishers concentrate on "name" authors that they pay huge sums to, and ignore new talent. This is a golden opportunity for small publishers, and this new talent saw this and didn't even bother contacting the big publishing houses. Accurate Press (www.accuratepress.net) is now on the map with a bunch of good-selling titles for this very reason.

People in the investment industry cried that E-trade would put them out of business. Well, yes, the ones who offered nothing for the dollars they were charging. Some of us are still alive and healthy, thank you very much.

If you're a shooter, you'd think that as accurate as Nosler Ballistic Tip and Hornady V-Max bullets are (both made by big factories with state-of-the-art automated equipment), you'd be a fool to go into the business of making match rifle bullets by hand one at a time. Don't tell that to Walt Berger (http://www.bergerbullets.com), who keeps hiring more people to pump the handles of his manual RCBS A2 presses because his business keeps growing and he keeps adding new styles.

We often look at the past with rose-colored glasses. It has never been terribly easy to make money in any kind of small business. And being big is no guarantee, either--look at KMart. Sticking with firearms, consider the challenges that gunshop owners faced in the past: Pre-1968, people could buy guns and ammo through the mail. Ten years ago, there were many more Federal Firearms Licensees that weren't stocking dealers, compared to now. The smaller gunshop of yesteryear is rarer today, but many of the savvy ones are making a living dealing 100% in used guns on consignment, something Wal-Mart is unlikely ever to attempt. Others combine their shops with on-site ranges with gun rentals, another marketing advantage Wal-Mart will never have.

Also keep in mind that in any industry, there are factors at work other than big-company competition. Gunshops have been hit as much by zoning laws and other measures as they've been hurt by Wal-Mart. Perhaps the greatest factor in shutting gunshops has been gun shows.

A gun show used to be a place where collectors showed off their displays. Little selling was done, and certainly not the kind of things you see sold now. Today, the gun show has become a bazaar. Now you have people who set up at a show every weekend and sell reloading components, gun cases, cleaning supplies, ammo, surplus items, and both new and used guns. This is these people's profession, not their hobby. Most gunstore customers came to the store on Friday or Saturday anyway. Many storeowners realized that there's a lot less overhead in renting five tables at a gun show each weekend than leasing a storefront and paying utilities 365 days a year.*

Bob Tipton, a reader from Virginia, where a lot of textile and furniture manufactures are going under, had this to add:

[blockquote]"One point I keep trying to bring out in discussions with people about this is the importance of knowing your own worth, and the worth of your employer. If your job is unskilled, then you need to be constantly aware that you can be replaced at any time, either through automation or by a cheaper workforce. Even if your job requires skill, if it doesn't produce REAL value, then you have to realize that you're in jeopardy. How many programmers lost their jobs because they were willing to take a job with a company that had an unrealistic business model? These are intelligent, reasonable people who never thought to look over the resume of their prospective employer before accepting a position within the company. Many abandoned other careers and relocated only to be out of work within a few years. A recent online article pointed out that it was almost impossible to rent a U-Haul trailer within San Francisco, because so many had been rented by departing workers."[/blockquote]

Amen to that. Successful small businesses will figure out how to provide goods and services that the box stores cannot, and if they can't, they will go bust and their space will be leased by other small business owners who can. It's always been that way, and it's not going to change.

John Ross 8/25/03​

*Memo to any nanny-state legislators reading this: The gun show is NOT a "loophole." The dealers who set up there have to do all the same paperwork and make the same phone call for the federal NICS criminal background check as they would in a storefront gunshop. Stop whining and lying.
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20070122153239/www.john-ross.net/walmart_ii.htm


Wal-Mart vs Small Businesses Revisited, or
A Real-Life Example of What to Do in a Free Economy
By John Ross


Copyright 2005 by John Ross. Electronic reproduction of this article freely permitted provided it is reproduced in its entirety with attribution given.

A while ago I ran a column discussing Wal-Mart and its effect on the small business owner. Go here if you haven't read it. Recently, a discussion popped up on a shooting-oriented Internet board I frequent that resulted in a lot of back-and-forth about "It's my hard-earned money and I want the best price" competing with "If you don't patronize your small shops and pay more they'll close and you'll be sorry."

My favorite gun shop in St. Louis is Trail Creek Trading. I'm a dealer myself (I focus on MGs and other rare, high-end stuff) and I still buy from Trail Creek. I bought a 629 Mountain Gun for $450 and two 41s (one a light barrel) for $1250 for the pair.

Interesting fact: Trail Creek is ACROSS THE STREET from Wal-Mart!

Yesterday, when I was in Trail Creek, I decided to go over to Wal-Mart and compare inventory.

Wal-Mart:
Remington 700 ADL, 10/22, 94 in 30/30, 870, Marlin 22, plastic-stocked Weatherby, and a couple of other uninteresting-looking long guns that I didn't bother to identify.

Generic 9mm, .45, and field loads (and I suspect .22s) in the ammo department

Clay targets and a few other peripherals like cleaning kits and cheap glasses

No handguns at all and no used guns

Trail Creek:
An entire two-sided 10' long rack (out in the middle of the floor) of various milsurp rifles, almost every one under $100

About 100 long guns, new and used, from blackpowder slug guns to an old sidehammer .52 rimfire to a Stevens Favorite to Rolling Blocks to Hi-Wall replicas to Sporting BARs to Marlin Guide Guns to Ruger #1s to semiauto military lookalikes to .458 bolt guns to Browning Superposeds, Auto-5s, and Citoris to Benellis to Winchester 97s, English and Belgian side-by-sides, and Italian copies of 19th century guns.

About 150 new and used handguns, from a pair of dueling pistols to cap-and-ball revolvers to $140 Makarov and CZ-52 milsurps to $200 9mm Stars to police trade-in Model 10s to Colt New Services to new and used Airweights to Colt and clone SAAs to Taurus, SIGs, Rugers of all types, Berettas, 1911s, lots of Smiths including a 4" 500 and a .25 ACP Smith J-frame(!) with moon clips made up by Hamilton Bowen and pictured in his book, etc. etc. etc.

Ammo of all types from milsurp by the box or case to new mfg. steel-case Russian to Speer Gold Dot to Federal Hydra-Shok to Eley match .22rf to CB caps to buckshot to slugs (several types) to round balls for muzzleloaders in all sizes. Only thing not stocked was the Winchester white box available across the street.

Concealment and belt holsters of various types, spare mags for popular autos, targets, a variety of solvents, and other accessories. I don't think they sell reloading stuff as they don't have room (it's a small shop that uses ALL available space, but I may have missed it.)

All prices were clearly marked on tags. I don't have the MSRPs of all guns memorized, but for every gun they had where I DO know the suggested retail price, like Smiths, their marked price was lower. The 4" 500 was $989, and they're still a little scarce.

Honestly, is this (successful) shop even in the same business as Wal-Mart? I don't see it. There may have been some item of inventory they shared, like a bottle of solvent or a pair of ear plugs, but I couldn't find it.

Wal-Mart sells to the person who wants a generic rifle or shotgun of new manufacture for hunting or plinking. That's it. Assume you're a hunter and guns are just needed tools for hunting. Further assume you are the first hunter in your family and no one left any guns to you. Once you have bought your 10/22, 94, 700, and 870 from Wal-Mart to hunt with, what are you going to do? Guns take forever to wear out, so you're done buying guns, at Wal-Mart or anywhere else. You're not likely to buy duplicate copies of these same exact plain-vanilla hunting guns.

But 80% of gunowners don't hunt. (This is a fact that the Democratic Party leadership has failed to grasp, but that is and has been a subject for another column.) Almost all non-hunting gunowners either just like guns and shooting, or are interested in self-protection, or both. A large number of hunters (I suspect at least half) also own guns for reasons other than taking game. It is this 90% of the market that will find Trail Creek much more interesting than the store across the street, once they've bought the cheap 870 or Model 94.

Wal-Mart isn't really in the gun business. The example of Trail Creek shows how little of the gun market Wal-Mart actually addresses. A gun shop owner is a FOOL if he stocks ANYTHING costing over $10 that Wal-Mart sells. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

John Ross 4/1/2005​

Comment from a reader:

I suppose you don't need people to tell you that you're right, but your column on Wal-Mart is on the money. Four months ago I bought my own store, a retail video game and DVD movie store. We do sell new stuff, but the real meat is in reselling trade-ins and renting out games and movies, neither of which Wal-Mart is involved in to any large degree. My store is located diagonally across the street from a Wal-Mart that's been in town for 15 years. The only thing I'd change is to be in THEIR parking lot.

If I don't have a game in stock, I do not hesitate sending people over to Wal-Mart to pick it up, usually after I've offered cash for their trade-ins. They're also good for stocking low margin stuff like game systems (I make $6 on a $150 PS2) that I'm not going to bother with.

I also enjoy getting impulse buy trade-ins (50% margin there) since Wal-Mart doesn't let you try a game before you buy it, doesn't employ anybody with game knowledge in the electronics section, and doesn't give money back for an opened game.

I've been running game stores for about 5 years now, and have been involved with the opening of a few others. When discussing location, the first thing I ask them is "How close is the nearest Wal-Mart?"

Anyway, my point is that even in a market that's much more mainstream than the shooting sports, Wal-Mart is a blessing to small businesses. Heck, that's where I buy my rental movies.


Thanks,
Peter​
 
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