Is Open carry a Threat on you?

[glock530]

What I truly fail to understand here is why an inanimate object (firearm) makes people uncomfortable.

If you saw someone walking down the street with a tool belt on and a hammer dangling from it would it make you nervous, he could just as easily assault you with the hammer. Should we call for an end to the open carry of hammers? Maybe it's a pen in his pocket (You could put an eye out with those).

If people say OC is not socially acceptable, maybe thats true simply because we don't exercise our rights to make it acceptable.

 

[Fish828]

i hope that guy was just playing or else he sounds like he's a little off his rocker. as long as the weapon remains holstered and the individual's hand remains off of the weapon, i see no problem with open carry.

 

[Eightball]

That guy's nuts. If he drew on you, unprovoked.....methinks bad things could happen to him. He drew first, after all.

 

[JesseL]

If you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel that you need to carry a gun openly to dissuade someone from attacking you, it may be wise consider a change of venue.

The same goes for if you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel you need to keep a concealed weapon to defend yourself.

We all do our best to avoid trouble when possible, and some of us feel that an openly carried sidearm is a valuable extra layer of trouble avoidance.

If a criminal with a concealed weapon was casing the joint and saw you eating crab claws with your back to him and a gun on your hip, he has the advantage of knowing your hand and targeting you first while the un assuming looking CC'er at the next table might take him out when he makes his move. The elements of surprise and situational awareness are, to me, far more valuable in almost any scenario than standing out like a beacon and drawing unnecessary attention.

You would sit in a restaurant where your back was exposed and you couldn't watch the doors?

The elements of deterrence and situational awareness are IMHO at least equal to surprise and situational awareness. It's always better to avoid a fight than to win one.

In nature, practically every creature that is equipped with a powerful defensive tool goes to significant lengths to advertise that it is dangerous and not to be trifled with - think poisonous frogs and insects, blowfish, skunks, antlered/horned mamals, etc. I believe that there is a valuable lesson in this.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

In nature, practically every creature that is equipped with a powerful defensive tool goes to significant lengths to advertise that it is dangerous and not to be trifled with - think poisonous frogs and insects, blowfish, skunks, antlered/horned mamals, etc. I believe that there is a valuable lesson in this.

That's the truth. Underwater or in the rainforest, you are generally wise to avoid trifling with or trying to eat anything that is too flamboyant or brightly coloured because there's a good chance that they're poisonous or venomous. So - can I interpret that when you OC you are in fact advertising, like the critters that you refer to, and intentionally standing out with your display of weaponry to show others that you're dangerous and not to be messed with? That is what I have a personal issue with. I can easily relate to the practicality of open carry of a gun as a tool in certain environments. The whole advertizing and attention thing is what I cannot relate to. It works in the wild when you can be certain that the second you are vulnerable, you WILL be eaten. Has society gotten that bad already?. I feel it's more effective to emulate the profile the REAL dangerous animals in nature - The ones that blend in and remain silent and hopefully unseen until it is the right time to strike.

BTW did you read my reply to to the ethnicity / skin colour argument?

 

[Tropical Buzz]

If you saw someone walking down the street with a tool belt on and a hammer dangling from it would it make you nervous, he could just as easily assault you with the hammer. Should we call for an end to the open carry of hammers? Maybe it's a pen in his pocket (You could put an eye out with those).

If I saw someone walk into a restaurant carrying a hammer, he would certainly get and hold my attention. At least until he started repairing the furniture.

 

[WayneConrad]

TropicalBuzz, You can hide your skin color through makeup and clothing. How is that different than hiding your sidearm?

You also ignored my second hypothetical:

Question; If you were Christian at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your cross, would you continue to show your cross there the next time you went?

You have every right to your religion and its symbols. Are you going to cover it up because the people around you don't like it? Would you expect anyone to?

 

[Tropical Buzz]

It was apples to oranges when you first posted it and it still is now. Unavoidable physical characteristics vs. a deliberate, conscious behaviour. As for the religious argument, most Catholics or Christians I know are not instantly recognizable. You may not even notice the cross unless you steal a peep down their shirts. If someone wears a cross huge and flamboyant enough to attract the attention of strangers, then they fall into the same conscious, deliberate attention drawing behaviour pattern that we are discussing.

Race, Religion ...what's next? Politics?

 

[JesseL]

So - can I interpret that when you OC you are in fact advertising, like the critters that you refer to, and intentionally standing out with your display of weaponry to show others that you're dangerous and not to be messed with?

Not exactly. I don't open carry in a way that's particularly flamboyant or anything. I just wear an ordinary gun in a tasteful leather holster. I try not to look like a victim. I stand straight, smile, and look people in the eye.

That is what I have a personal issue with - the whole advertizing and attention thing.

The funny thing is, it's not really obvious to most people. Very few people seem to notice open carry at all. The ones who do notice don't react much. In my experience, the only people likely to be examining you that closely are the predators sizing up their prey.

It works in the wild when you can be certain that the second you are vulnerable, you WILL be eaten. Has society gotten that bad already?

It doesn't matter how civilized (or uncivilized) society is. There will always be a dangerous minority who don't hold any qualms about robbing/raping/injuring/killing others, and only await the opportunity.

I feel it's more effective to emulate the profile the REAL dangerous animals in nature - The ones that blend in and remain silent and hopefully unseen until it is the right time to strike.

Those are predators that survive by killing weaker prey. I have no desire to be a predator. I just want to go about my life unmolested.

BTW did you read my reply to to the ethnicity / skin colour argument?

Yes.
1. You could use makeup to change your skin color to avoid offending people that don't like it the way it is. The question is, why should you? Being offended by skin color or a visibly carried defensive weapon is a sign of irrational and prejudicial thinking.

2. Breaking wind in an elevator produces an unavoidable odor that is inherently and objectively offensive. People have good reasons to avoid smells redolent of feces.

The sight of a firearm is inherently neutral. It is a tool that may be used for good or evil (though if you intend to use it for evil, you'll probably hide it to avoid alerting your victim). The only reason to find it offensive is due to irrational and misplaced bias.

 

[WayneConrad]

If someone wears a cross huge and flamboyant enough to attract the attention of strangers, then they fall into the same conscious, deliberate attention drawing behaviour pattern that we are discussing.

So, small cross, OK, large cross, bad.

Check.

What about a large head scarf? What about a yamaka?

 

[Mainsail]

If you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel that you need to carry a gun openly to dissuade someone from attacking you, it may be wise consider a change of venue.

As much as I would like the criminal scumbags to stay in their own areas, it would be a violation of their civil rights to demand they do so.

Are YOU seriously going to pull your UNCONCEALED PISTOL while a mugger who gets the drop on you has a knife on you or your wife???

Yes, absolutely. He might get one slash or stab in, but I will get one to nine rounds of .45 caliber Federal HSTs into him. Of course your scenario is not even close to realistic and hardly worthy of a response.

If a criminal with a concealed weapon was casing the joint and saw you eating crab claws with your back to him and a gun on your hip, he has the advantage of knowing your hand and targeting you first while the un assuming looking CC'er at the next table might take him out when he makes his move.

Again, this is a not a realistic scenario. Every study, not most, but every study I’ve ever read on criminal behavior indicate that a bad guy (or girl) will go to great lengths to avoid an armed person. Seriously now, is it any less than ridiculous to think a criminal is going to murder someone just for the opportunity to rob the Crab Shack? What planet are you from? As I said before, the ‘other guy’ you mention with the CCW can only react to the robbery. Can you shoot a man for demanding money from the cashier at the Crab Shack? If he’s facing away from you talking to the cashier and only motioned to the gun in his waistband, you won’t even know he’s armed. The realistic outcome of your scenario has the bad guy seeing my .45 and departing quickly for easier pastures, and the Crab Shack does not get robbed at all.

The elements of surprise and situational awareness are, to me, far more valuable in almost any scenario than standing out like a beacon and drawing unnecessary attention.

Sneaky. You somehow attach “surprise and situational awareness” as though situational awareness is only the territory of someone with a concealed weapon. I didn’t rack up 5600+ flight hours in military heavies without a keen understanding of what situational awareness is. A person’s SA is not dependant on their manner of carry, thus your argument is moot. As for surprise, it sounds like you’re saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that it’s preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. That’s a bizarre logic.

I'll always endevour to have an informed opinion even if it means my opinion being changed by someone with a better argument. Yours wasn't it.

I guess it’s true; you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. If you choose to put the weight of your argument on outrageous and extremely unlikely scenarios, then I expect your mind will never change.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

The elements of deterrence and situational awareness are IMHO at least equal to surprise and situational awareness. It's always better to avoid a fight than to win one.

Jesse, sorry I missed that point in my last reply. It's a good point. The advantage value of the deterrence factor vs. the surprise factor and how it stacks up against being a beacon of attention is quite arguable and probably, in the end, relative to the situation that presents itself.

 

[.cheese.]

open carry doesn't bother me in the least.

The threat you should worry about is the one you won't see.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

As much as I would like the criminal scumbags to stay in their own areas, it would be a violation of their civil rights to demand they do so.

LMAO. You funny.

Of course your scenario is not even close to realistic and hardly worthy of a response.

Yes, and yet you still responded. Besides I was only responding to a scenario presented by another poster.

Seriously now, is it any less than ridiculous to think a criminal is going to murder someone just for the opportunity to rob the Crab Shack? What planet are you from?

How is that any more ridiculous than a criminal murdering someone to rob the 7-11? Third rock from the sun. You REALLY funny.

Sneaky. You somehow attach “surprise and situational awareness” as though situational awareness is only the territory of someone with a concealed weapon. I didn’t rack up 5600+ flight hours in military heavies without a keen understanding of what situational awareness is. A person’s SA is not dependant on their manner of carry, thus your argument is moot. As for surprise, it sounds like you’re saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that it’s preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. That’s a bizarre logic..

Chill. This is not about YOU and your umpteen flight hours in military heavies. Bully for you. I never implied YOU or anyone else was lacking in SA. Nor did I imply that SA was in any way related to method of carry. If you were'nt so keen on looking for an angle to turn this into a fight you would have understood that my position is that I would prefer to be situationally aware and inconspicuous than the center of attention whether situationally aware or not. Thus your attack is unfounded and predictable, therefore moot and ineffective.

I have aknowleged the value of the deterrence argument though I am not convinced that it is worth the downside of being the only one walking around with a gun on my hip in a public place where that is not the norm.

Originally Posted by Tropical Buzz
I'll always endevour to have an informed opinion even if it means my opinion being changed by someone with a better argument. Yours wasn't it.

I guess it’s true; you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. If you choose to put the weight of your argument on outrageous and extremely unlikely scenarios, then I expect your mind will never change.

Your belligerant and confrontational attitude goes a long way towards convincing me of one thing: you do seem like the type who wants to OC for all the wrong reasons. My opinion can definitely be influenced by a superior argument, but you will never insult or bully me into changing my mind about anything, no matter how much you foam at the mouth. Yours definitely wasn't it - in fact you might want to consider handing the guns in for safe keeping until you learn to deal with minor disagreements without feeling threatened and getting all worked up and aggressive. Good luck with that.

 

[Mainsail]

I was being neither belligerent nor confrontational. What you may not realize is that every time open carry is mentioned in these forums someone comes along to trot out the same tired horse. It didn’t run then and it isn’t going to run now.

…in fact you might want to consider handing the guns in for safe keeping until you learn to deal with minor disagreements without feeling threatened and getting all worked up and aggressive.

I don’t know where you’re seeing that, unless you feel threatened by the fact that you are not supporting your end of the debate. My writing was never meant to convey an attitude of anger or insult. I was saying that your arguments are based on non-typical scenarios, things that simply don’t happen, and that’s a silly way to discuss an issue. You seem almost unnaturally sensitive.

Additionally, you never responded to this:

As for surprise, it sounds like you’re saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that it’s preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. That’s a bizarre logic.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

Wayne and Jesse and others - I agree that many people do have an irrational and unreasonable fear of guns. And you are right that judging the motives of people that own guns is no less a form of prejudice than judging someone based on their skin colour or ethnicity. These points are not lost on me but outside of a practical need to OC in certain environments and the activism angle which I question the effectiveness of, what I originally questioned was the need or the desire to carry openly in a place where it is unusual, generally considered out of place and likely to cause discomfort to others. The deterrent factor holds water but with all the other things we can do do reduce our viability as targets, is it worth the downsides? And isn't it worthwhile to want to avoid causing discomfort to others when it is not absolutely necessary to do so? Personal choices, I guess and to each his own. Overall, it's still not for me, but I am less negative about OC than I was when this discussion began.

Bandanas, etc? Wear what you like. Just be aware that certain symbols and modes of dress come with certain images and reactions that may or may not be applicable to the real you. Make your choices and live with the consequences, I say. Ethnicity also comes with the same stereotypes (I am more or less "black" by the way) but you cannot really change what you are and shouldn't want to. You can absolutely change how you behave, though, and at the end of the day that's what really matters, doesn't it?
What's a yamaka again?

MAINSAIL

I was being neither belligerent nor confrontational.

AND

I don’t know where you’re seeing that,

AND

You seem almost unnaturally sensitive.

What planet did you say you're from again?


Additionally, you never responded to this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
As for surprise, it sounds like you’re saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that it’s preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. That’s a bizarre logic.

You're right about one thing. I didn't respond to that.

 

[Sato Ord]

To get back to the original post for a moment.

The guy who says he would draw down on anyone he saw Open Carrying would be wrong, possibly dead wrong. If he wins the gun fight he'll most likely get himself a new lover named Bubba.

Of course he sounds like a mouthy kid who needs to stop watching too much TV and get a real life. Most likely he would do nothing and mind his own business. Don't take braggarts like that too seriously.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument that I seem to have interrupted.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

No problem with me, Iam more concerned about the person carrying.

 

[gym]

Anyone who points a gun at anyone for no reason, who isn't a law enforcement officer plays a dangerous game. Like many said the guy's trying to impress you, be congenial and avoid future conversations. Chances are he won't be in your life much longer.

 

[JesseL]

, what I originally questioned was the need or the desire to carry openly in a place where it is unusual, generally considered out of place and likely to cause discomfort to others.

To be fair; Wayne and I live in a region where although it's not exactly common; open carry isn't particularly unusual either. There are undoubtedly some people who feel uncomfortable in the presence of an openly carried sidearm here.

The reason I don't worry about causing people discomfort, is because I'm not causing their discomfort - they are. Me and my gun aren't doing anything to cause discomfort. All the discomfort they feel is due to their internal mental processes. There is an important distinction here. If I (to use your example) break wind in an elevator, play music too loud in public, step on someone's toes, or cut someone off in traffic; I have done something that directly and tangibly infringes on their rights. Alternatively if someone takes offense at my clothing, skin color, religion, or sidearm; they have chosen to be upset by something that they could just as easily ignore.

There is no limit to what some people might decide is offensive, but I don't have any obligation to placate them. As long as what I do isn't having an objective, tangible, negative effect on their rights; it's not my problem. This may sound callous or self-centered, but I try to extend the same courtesy to others. I don't make a fuss and try to manipulate the behavior of others when I can just as easily ignore them. There are people who would gladly force my wife to wear a burkha or insist that I do no work on Sundays - I feel no less obligated to kowtow to those people than I do to the people who would throw a hissy fit over my pistol.

The deterrent factor holds water but with all the other things we can do do reduce our viability as targets, is it worth the downsides?

In my experience, the downsides are largely imaginary.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

Not much to argue with there. At this point it simply boils down to choices.

On a lighter note, after my last post, a friend who is staying with us came in and told me a large rat was sneaking onto the patio by the pool to steal chunks of bread that fell out of the bird feeder. I got my old trusty .22 cal air rifle out and waited quietly at a table about 25' away on the other side of the pool. Sure enough, he came back but it was difficult to get a shot off because he was darting for the bread and I was aiming into a dark background, making it hard to see the front sight. I decided to sight a little to the right of the next chunk closest to his hiding spot behind a planter. He darted again and I fired. Perfect head shot. No suffering.

Now, I could have deterred that rat by standing there with the gun and making myself visible but I couldn't do it forever and he would just choose another time and place to commit his crime. So there! OC'ing would not have worked!
Just kidding, guys! Honest! I don't want to apply this scenario to real life. Please believe me!! (it was a great shot, though.)
Actually, I did enjoy most of the debate and came away with a slightly more enlightened perspective.

 

[abrink]

I open carry myself so i wouldn't see another OC'er as a threat. I would see the guy waving a gun at me as a threat and a few well placed COM shots would reduce the threat. Seriously if that guy say me OC'ing and he did that i would take action and i would be in the right to do so.

 

[3rd Generation American]

I'm a member on another site (calguns.net) that is in Ca. and this is one post of what a bunch of brave 2A people did; http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=96226
As you see it can be done with out problems

 

[WayneConrad]

I'm a member on another site (calguns.net) that is in Ca. and this is one post of what a bunch of brave 2A people did; http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=96226
As you see it can be done with out problems

Open carry in California! Who woulda thunk it. I am seriously impressed.

Hey. Guys. Follow that link. Great reading. These guys replaced yackity-yack with "dunnit!" in a place most of us never would have thought possible. And nothing happened.

 

[plexreticle]

That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Wow, that a good way to get yourself killed.