Is the "just give them your wallet" recommendation seriously flawed?

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JLStorm

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I have had quite a number of classes and read countless expert opinions which all recommend giving items of monetary value to a criminal if confronted, but what completely escapes me is the weapon involved. Let's face it, if a criminal demands your money or wallet, there has bound to be a deadly weapon involved or else you would probably keep walking without giving their demand much thought. If someone is demanding items from me and I am actually considering relinquishing them, there will probably be a gun or knife pointed at me within a distance at which it could do major bodily harm or cause death, and the person holding the weapon will have the capacity to use it. I would assume that is generally the case in muggings or similar thefts be it wallet, money, jewelry, or vehicles, etc.

My problem with this scenario is that even if I give up my valuables I still have a deadly weapon pointed at me with no considerable guarantee that it will not be used to kill or maim. I find that it makes much more sense to assume that your life is in danger and that someone sinister enough to demand valuables at gun or knife point has the intent to use those weapons regardless of your compliance. I have often thought that I might pull out my wallet and throw it at the same time draw my weapon so that I at least of some sort of retaliatory options should the wallet or valuable item not deter an attack, however if I have a gun pointed at my chest I may not have the time to do both. I also realize that if I have a gun pointed at my chest it means that the criminal had the chance to dispatch me but so far has chosen not to go down that road, at least not before he has what he wants and can make a quick retreat after the gun shot or stabbing. In this day and age of gang related crimes where brutal initiations and ego fueled violence run rampant, simple crimes such as theft seem to turn out not so simple for the victim.

Given the above information, how and why am I supposed to trust this deranged criminal to stop at a simple theft? I understand that ego must be put aside and the loss of my valuables are cheaper than court costs, but where does one draw the line between sense and gullible stupidity in this situation?
 
It seems to me (and I've posted on this before) that a lot of people can't distinguish between simple theft (loss of property) and robbery by force.

With simple theft the criminal takes something but never directly threatens you (or may never even have any contact with you at all). For example, you come back to your car to discover a window smashed and stuff stolen. You and the criminal never had any direct contact.

Robbery by force, on the other hand, involves the criminal directly approaching you and making some sort of threat. That threat is almost always a variation of the hoary old chestnut of "your money or your life". In that case a self-defense response is NOT you protecting property, it is you protecting your life and well-being which the criminal just directly threatened.

Each individual must evaluate each situation and decide on the best course of action, but in scenario 2 if means, motive, and opportunity are all met then lethal force may be an appropriate response.

Every time I hear the argument "just give them what they want and they'll go away" I'm astonished at the notion that I should believe that about someone who was already criminal enough to try and rob me in the first place. If they are far enough outside of the normal social boundaries to perform the bold, face-to-face action of robbery by force, then I tend to believe they'll do whatever else they please as well regardless of any "deal" they claim to be offering me.
 
We've discussed this at our Study Group in length over the years.

First of all - assume that the encounter you have in your mind as the "typical mugging" will involve more than one Criminal Actor. The one you presented, and the one most Practitioners often envision preparing for in their mind, only contains one. That is likely not going to be the case.


Understand that if a Violent Criminal Actor came prepared for more than just your valuables, but wanted to do harm to you, he would have done so already. He's presenting you with Instrumental Violence at this point. Most instances of Instrumental Violence get resolved when the VCA's demands are met.


We've also studied the likelihood of the victim being harmed, and to what extent he gets harmed, during acts of Instrumental Violence. As the weapon's intimidation factor increases, the likehood it will be used decreases. For instance:

  • "Strong-arm" robberies - The VCA, or more likely a group of VCA's threaten violence with their hands as weapons. We've seen evidence that the victim is often assaulted fairly viciously before the demand is made. The intimidation factor during strong-arm robberies is low. So the assault serves to convince the victim to comply with the demands about to be given.
  • Impact weapons - Here simple clubs, bats, metal bars or other improved weapons are used to intimidate. They are farther up the scale in intimidation value, and may be used on the victim to gain compliance, but not to the extent of strong-arm robberies.
  • Edged weapons - Knives, broken bottles. The victim may be cut during a scuffle as he tries to resist or flee. But at this point we see a decline in the use of the weapon on the victim for intimidation purposes.
  • Firearms - Because of their intrinsic intimidation value, the victim is rarely shot just so the VCA(s) can prove the point that they are serious. Usually if the victim sustains a gunshot wound, it was either a deliberate act of Expressive Violence, and the robbery was a tangental act. Or the victim somehow moved the VCA(s) into Expressive Violence by his actions.


The act of throwing your wallet to the ground usually serves to anger the VCA(s). The risk one takes when using this "cute" trick is it simply doesn't work. Criminals who have decided to take money from victims through force, face to face, have learned street savvy and are cunning. They will recognize this act in your eyes long before you do it with your hands. And his accomplices will be there to back him up.

Acts like this do serve to move the encounter from Instrumental Violence to Expressive Violence. As I shared, Instrumental Violence generally resolves when the VCA gets what he wants. However, Expressive Violence only gets resolved when the VCA's pysche is satisfied. That is often accomplished by using the weapon to inflict harm on the victim.

When we look in detail at what happened during most robberies that resulted in injury or death after the victim handed over his valuables, we find most folks "got what they begged for". They either disrespected the VCA in some way, or refused to comply quickly enough.


How can you tell if a robbery will result in harm to you? One clue is if it hasn't happened in the first few seconds, it probably won't unless you give them a reason to in their minds. Another is the interaction of the VCA. A hyper-violent criminal actor will engage you differently than one who only uses violence when its necessary. Also, the larger the crowd of his buddies present, the less tolerance they will have for disrespect. For them, respect is vital for survival. Their code demands satisfaction for any perceived insult.


Be vigilant, and watch for the signs of a trap being sprung. Go with your instinct and avoid the trap. If you are paying attention, you will only have 1 or 2 seconds to react and make an escape.

If you are caught in the ambush, read the situation and use your social skills to determine the goals of your attackers. If you decide handing over your valuables is the way to survive the encounter, then do it, excuse yourself, and leave quickly and immediately.

If you determine force is necessary, and the only way to resolve the situation for your survival, those "cute tricks" for distraction will not work. Get off the line of force, and go big right now.


Nothing you do can ensure your survival. That's life. There are no guarantees. Anyone who attempts to sell you one is either being disingenuous, or is ignorant and naïve.
 
I also realize that if I have a gun pointed at my chest it means that the criminal had the chance to dispatch me but so far has chosen not to go down that road
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My general inclination is that if you have a gun pointed at you, the time to use your weapon has passed and unless you have reason to think otherwise it might be best to not give a reason to shoot like you trying to draw a handgun from concealment faster than they can pull a trigger.
 
Being robbed at gun/knife point and given the stated or implied option of "your money/wallet/purse or your life" is a truly hostile negotiation that many people feel is some sort of contractual agreement with a negotiated settlement. The problem is, there are no immediate controls in place to assure that the negotiated deal results in the negotiated outcome.

It is my contention that at the moment of the threat, the situation is no longer one of your money, but of your life. So it isn't just a robbery and the notion that you would fight or risk your life for the $23 in your wallet is moot because the threat isn't to the $23, but your life.

According to FBI stats from a few years ago and presented on TLC or Discovery on a program about crime, 87% of the time, compliance results in no harm. That means that 13% of the time, harm still comes to those who comply with being robbed or are witnesses to the event. So statistically, the odds are really good that nothing bad will happen to you. Statistically, statistics don't mean crap because you don't know where your event will fall (no harm v. harmed) and they mean even less if you are harmed.

At the point the threat is made, the issue is about life. It is that simple. How you choose to preserve it is your business, as Bullfrog Ken noted.

There are those here who will invoke the issues of dignity or honor and chant the mantra that all is needed for evil to thrive is for good men (people) to stand idly by. Apparently, dignity, honor, and the mantra are supposed to be reasons for a person to fight back, that allowing oneself to be robbed without fighting back will cause the loss of one's dignity or honor. I find that logic appalling. As with the money issue, it isn't about dignity or honor. It is about life. Some folks apparently don't feel that it is honorable enough to simply survive the situation unharmed.

What many of the folks fail to realize is that getting robbed for the contents of their wallets may be the cheapest way out of the situation, as opposed to shooting the bad guy.

With all that said, the funniest robbery video I ever saw was the stop action camera sequence of a walk-up ATM. The sequence shows a guy come up, start pushing in his numbers and going through the options. As the images proceed, two figures appear in the distance behind him and continue to get closer. Finally, a gun is visible as the figures get to within a few feet. The victim knows they are there, but has not turned around as indicated by the change of expression on his face. The next image was classic. In the couple of seconds between frames, you don't know exactly what happened, but what you see are two guys, one with a gun, both looking off to their right, and the victim has disappeared. Simply put, he bolted. The next images are of the guys trying to extract money from the ATM as the vic's card was still in the machine.

Was it honorable to run? Did the intended victim preserve his dignity? Was he a coward? He prevented a possible bodily harm crime against himself. He survived unharmed. He did very well.
 
I have a problem with giving up my stuff. It's not that I care about my wallet - I hardly EVER carry more than $20 of cash anyway. Eveyrthing else can be replaced.

I just do not want to be vicimized. The very thought of someone forcing their will upon me bothers me. I feel that afterwards I would have serious issues with giving my my wallet to a mugger. My self respect would be shot.

Look at it this way - every time someone complies with a criminal, you are screwing the next guy. "Hey this worked, I'll try it again."

Who cares about the next guy? Well, keep in mind that YOU may be someone else's "next guy" - so you should care.

Resistence to crime is the only real deterrent to crime. Criminals tend to not perform crimes with little opportunity for easy profit. If these guys were intellegent hard workers they would have jobs or at least be high end jewel thieves - anything other than a common mugger.

If everyone who is able says "I am going to resist if it has a reasonable chance of success" that would be a HUGE deterrent to crime. It's not coincidence that criminals tend to pray on the elderly, women walking alone, etc. These people are perceived as easier targets. If we make it so NO ONE is automatically an "easy target" that will give some, not all, thugs a moment of pause before comitting the act.

Now, I am NOT saying to fight to the death over your wallet every time. Obviously, the ultimate goal is to survive - if you are surrounded by 6 guys, all armed, and two of them have guns to you head, you're probably giving up you wallet. But that it not always the typical scenario. Every situation is different - and we have to be able to evaluate on the fly the various options available to us and choose the best course of action.

I however feel that in many, if not mose, situation, compliance is NOT the best course of action. But that is just me. I'm certainly not going to trust the word of a thief holding a knife in front of me that he's not going to cut me if I give him my wallet.
 
If someone has a weapon on you and is demanding compliance, it's too late to effectively act in self defense. And, unless you are certain you're going to die, it's a better policy to comply until either the threat is gone or until you can safely attack or escape.

Now, the KEY here is to not be the victim in the first place through situational awareness.

My martial arts instructor always said there are 5 keys to self defense

1) Don't be there
2) If you are there, leave
3) If you can't leave, put an obsticle between you and the attacker
4) Don't yell help, because no one answers to help. Yell "fire" instead.
5) As a last resort, if a fight is inevitable, use anything you can to fight to kill
 
I have no issue handing over money, but I refuse to hand over anything with my home address such as licenses etc. I do have a major issue trusting this criminal to uphold his end of the deal which would be to leave me alone after he has my money. Attempting to mug me is not a way to build trust, I dont understand how those of you are confident that paying someone who is dishonest will cause them to suddenly do the right thing?
 
It's easy; if they just want your $$, then giving it to them is safest. If they also want your life, then you must injure them until they cannot function.

How do you know? Well, that's the crux, you don't. Every situation will be different. Listen to your gut and if you choose to cooperate, fine, but always retain the option to take them and out and be prepared to do so the instant your gut says the situation has changed. Or, just take them out immediately. No pat answer will be correct 100%. You need the ability to both comply and take them out so you have options.

If you don't have the capability of taking out an armed assailant, then your decision is made for you. Of course, every human being has the ability...some just are too well socialized/civilized to realize it.
 
Firearms - Because of their intrinsic intimidation value, the victim is rarely shot just so the VCA(s) can prove the point that they are serious.
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So... doesn't this demonstrate that we would all be safer if violent felons were able to buy guns legally ...? ;)

Maybe the govt should be providing felons with guns in the interest of public safety. For the children, of course :D
 
If you are capable of effective defense .vs. whom ever is mugging you, then give effective defense. If they have the drop and you ain't fast, I'd give them the wallet. BUT NEVER LET THEM FORCE YOU INTO THE CAR. Cause you are most likely on a one-way drive. Same goes for if they try to heard you to the back of the store, or want you to lie face down....

If you are traveling, it might be a good idea to have a fake wallet, with nothing to point back to who you are or where you live, maybe even a few bucks in it, and just throw it down while backing up (and then running.)

Real robbery is aways scarry, cause you find yourself in real fear of being killed. So think about what you would do, and what you are capable of doing!
 
BUT NEVER LET THEM FORCE YOU INTO THE CAR.
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A Chicago detective named Bittenbinder has a nifty book on becoming a harder target. He makes a very good point that there are people found dead in the woods that when last seen alive were nowhere near the woods. He stressed fighting for your life at the point somebody tries to get you into a vehicle as that may be your last chance to do so.
 
Giving the BG money is no guarantee that you will not end up dead, and it only encourages then to continue doing their crimes.
 
Toss them your wallet along with 3 bulles 1 to the head and 2 in the chest.
Due process.
 
I have no issue handing over money, but I refuse to hand over anything with my home address such as licenses etc. I do have a major issue trusting this criminal to uphold his end of the deal which would be to leave me alone after he has my money. Attempting to mug me is not a way to build trust, I dont understand how those of you are confident that paying someone who is dishonest will cause them to suddenly do the right thing?
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Yep, I was ready to post those same sentiments after reading about 3 or 4 posts. Money is no big deal (compared to my life an health even if it is a little harder to come by :( ) but I will not let someone have my CCP, drivers license, credit cards, and other personal info that they could use to make my life hell for months to come. If someone's trying to take my wallet, they'll have to be armed and I try to see them coming. I hope (and feel fairly certain) that I'd see them coming far enough in advance to be ready for the encounter. Once their weapon becomes visible, so does mine.

Makes me want to get one of those wallet holsters for a Kel-tec. :mad:

The best idea is to avoid areas where this would be possible (as mentioned before) but that is not always easy. If you find yourself in a part of town where a mugging is even possible, be alert and prepared. Don't find yourself surprised when someone pulls a deadly weapon on you.

I can't attest to the quality of his book, but his mustache is amazing
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Yes it is.
 
I can understand withholding the driver's license (what sort of mugger would want that anyway?) Since I don't actually use a wallet, but have stuff directly in my pockets, it's easy for me to separate cards from cash by touch, so that isn't much of an issue. But credit cards? I'd toss them over at the blink of an eye. I'm sure I can get on the phone with my bank before the perp can get much money out, and regardless, it being a credit card, I'm protected up to some number which I've forgotten. Of course, my credit card also says "see ID", although no one is likely to check on a purchase of less than a few hundred dollars. I'd personally lose more if they stole my blockbuster card (which is why I keep it locked up at work. Burnt once...)

In my case though, I generally don't carry cash at all, except for phone change in my backpack. I'm more worried the guy will get upset or think I'm trying to trick him than anything. Maybe I should start keeping a twenty on me just in case.
 
4) Don't yell help, because no one answers to help. Yell "fire" instead.
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BG might take that as a directive :D

IMO, fighting is usually the way to go because VCA's stated intention ("your money") is often a low-ball ruse to get control without much resistance. The real goal may be "your life".
 
Thanks for those links Ze and you are right, anyone can be surprised at any time no matter the amount of training or mentality. All we can do is try our best to see it coming and be prepared for it if it does.

I have to admit, I don't go around every single corner, every single day, with full preparedness to draw if there happened to be an attacker/mugger/BG right around the corner. I refuse to let BG's run my life in that manner. I do try to stay aware of my surroundings at all times since that will help in most cases. That said, there is VERY little violent crime in my area. I would behave very differently if I lived in a larger city.

People (co-workers, g/f, family) give me a hard time for keeping an eye on suspicious people if they are nearby in a public place. Doesn't bother me, I'd like to know ahead of time if they decide to bring their shady butt in my direction so, if nothing else, I can put myself between them (suspicious person) and my friends or family. I don't do that in hopes of being a "hero" either. I have other reasons.

BG might take that as a directive
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lol,
GG - Fire!
BG - Okay!
 
'Just give them your wallet' is not flawed. Like everything else, it just depends.

Do you really wanna start a gun fight with kids is tow? Say, for example from the exit of the picture show or Cracker Barrel to the parking lot and your auto.

Firing invites return fire. '50s movies notwithstanding, folks just don't fall over, or off of their horsey, after being shot. Are you prepared to accept the consequences?

If you're alone, maybe on the docks of Mobile, NOLA, a 'Drive Through' at Taco Bell, or your driveway, and there isn't anything to lose and everything to gain, have at it.

If you open the ball, make sure you can dance to the music.

Respectfully,

salty.
 
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