KELTEC SU-16 rifles

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midtennpawnstar,
My keltecks do not have a problem with the wolf, even the lackered cases but I try to save those for the occasional plinkin outings (very rare for me) or some tactical training where I don't want to be picking brass all over or in the snow.
Keep in mind this is not an AK and the steel is harder on the extractors but occasionally this is ok. Also it is more dirty as you probably know. The kelteck will swallow anything without complaints. OVerall the keltec will shoot everything and get decent results even with the Brown bear and wolf.

But, I would tend to use more the actual good brass.
They love Lake City 55gr GI NATO rounds. The chamber is built for this.

beautiful picture. It looks that you got a patch or something at the muzzle. make sure to clear the barrel before you fire it. It might be reflection. Check it.

Cheers,
E.
 
here's my CA & A set. A has Bravo site, other than that all stock. both need range time. I'm very happy with my purchases
 

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Nice looking systems. Great choices! Congratulations.
Those will give great enjoyment. They are dependable and fun to shoot.
They are so light that at some point they give you the impression you are shooting 62gr high power GI loads with a "daisy bb gun"
They do a heck of a job those "daisy" guns!. lol.
 
This is a good uncomplicated scope for the keltec that is light and well constructed. With mid-high raiser rings will allow for use of the bravo sights
alternatively.

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BU201322

Pros...
Extremely light
Great eye relive
Fast acquisition
Clear picture
Drop compensation reticule
Great price point

Cons...
Lens caps are so so but this can be resolved with
aftermarket ones.
Nothing else
 
A great scope for the SU16CA is the Burris Timberline 1x7 with bullet drop reticule. The reticule is very fine with those drop marks that help you figure drop and also range. It is only 11oz. About half of the weight of many other scopes. Another one I have is holding zero for about 2 years now.

See the pics below....

The perfect marriage. SU16-CA with the timberline with bullet drop reticule...
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Closer...
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Left side...
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Not a great picture but can see through with bravo sights using that mount...
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"Uncle Leo" Get the d-a-m phone!!!!!. lol!....
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See the bullet drop marks?

With that mount I would use a couple of black ducktape strips to shim it a tad so there is no pressure in the bottom of the scope. You should be able to put a business card between the bottom of the scope and the mount to level it and the card should come off after you tight up the screws in X pattern and with blue locktite.

11oz that go very well with this light rifle and even the short ARs. Enjoy!

Cheers,
E.
 
1stMarine, it looks like you have a DPMS linear comp in your lineup. I just put one on my keltec CA. What kind of results did you get with that? I wanted mine more to push the sound and flash forward, I am not concerned about flash suppression except on either side of the firing line from me. That 16" barrel is loud! Especially under a covered firing line. It really puts the wife and kids off. Also, so many folks are shooting with comps now, it gets really hard to work with new shooters because of all that side blast there.

May I make a proposal? Think about if you really need that compensator on your rifle. If most of your shooting is done at a range where you will be close to other shooters, it would be more comfortable for them if you are not using the comp. I know its cool, and helps keep your sights on target, but can you rapid fire at your range anyway?

The local range I use (Angles Ranges in Los Angeles) has gotten much busier in recent years. When I bring new shooters, we are dodging empty cases, and getting pounded by pressure waves from short barreled compensated rifles.

I am wondering if that linear comp may be a partial solution. If everyone had one of these instead of a regular comp or a plain short barrel... How much nicer would it be?
I think this comp is better than a plain barrel, but I will have to see some day when the range is not so busy.

I read others don't like the length, but your comp looks a lot longer than an A2. Mine is maybe 3/8th inch longer than a A2 flash suppressor. It also looks like you could cut it a 1/4 inch shorter or so, if I wanted.
 
Hi GTR Done,
Yes in deed we need to be aware of our surroundings. Normally I don't have any issues but I always ask anyway if I feel that might disrupt someone.
Specially I always make sure folks around me have the ears on and always suggest double protection whether I am shooting .223, .308 or a super magnum.

Now, regarding that break that is not a DPMS. Most of my breaks are custom made to specification but Peak Tactical. http://peaktactical.com/
He makes high quality stuff that folks can actually afford.

I have done extensive research and found that many breaks, even expensive ones, not only do not perform as well as expected but might do more harm than good with your system's accuracy.
When I say accuracy it is not just about follow up shots but the actually shot by shot accuracy might be impacted based on the brake design, internal and external dimensions.

Whatever we do we always must exercise courtesy and common sense so I am right there with you.

Actual Peak Brake...
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Thanks 1st Marine. What do you think of the "linear" type comp? By that I mean a cylinder with holes in the end only, so all the sound and flash are directed forward. I don't have any evidence, but I think mine helps with that. If I get the time, I want to do some accuracy and sound testing. I would just be judging with my Mark 1 eyeball, and my Model 1 Earflap Sonic Collector.
Can't have silencers many places in the US, so maybe a properly designed device would aim the worst downrange.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=524840
 
Less % recoil reduction but they do work and they have other benefits (they bleed forward) But be careful with the weight. In .223 I would go with a custom one in aircraft aluminum. It doesn't impact much your accuracy nodes for this type of barrel and it hardens (sort of baking process) overtime.

Talk to Mike at Peak tactical. They can make them for a good price I think. Definitely better than the one in Midwayusa although that one doesn't look bad.

Check the 6th one, that is a peak linear in Aircraft alloy....

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Cheers.
E.
 
I think I will do that. I didn't get your reference to "bleed forward". What does that mean?
I might be nice to have a matching set; one 'linear' for use on the firing line or under cover, and one 'normal' that you could use for competions, etc.
 
What I meant with that is the front ports force the expanding gases to bleed in a forward direction. Bleeding of gases is a term commonly use by engineers and gunsmiths when explaining design aspects and functions of regulators, muzzle brakes, etc...
Replacing brakes might make sense but sometimes this can have an effect in accuracy with a specific load so I normally do not replace them. At the other hand it depends of what type of competition. For example in tactical CQB drills it doesn't make a significant different if your loads are a tad more accurate or not with that brake but that the break effect itslef is maximized to allow steady picture and quick follow up shots.
Anyway this is deviating a bit from the Keltec post and probably subject for another discussion more specific about muzzle brake types and different uses & characteristics.
I hope this helps.
 
Thanks for your thoughts. I think I will see about a custom comp.
My original thought for the Keltec was for it to be the rifle that anyone in the family could use. I have a M-1 carbine, but it is not as reliable as the Keltec, and the ammo is more expensive than the .223
Also, I have a AR-15 A2 Colt. Way to heavy for the wife and daughter, but that 20" barrel is nice. Not so nice for the main "house" gun.
The short 16" barrel is handy... It it is so loud the ladies don't like it. So a short aluminum comp that directs sound and flash and pressure forward would be ideal.
BTW, I can buy a Keltec CA model for about what a new production M-1 carbine. About the same length and weight, and has a rail on top for a scope already. Ammo is more available, and with more options for bullet type. The Keltec is a lot of fun, and practical.
 
Yes they are in deed one of the nicest latest innovations from our good friends at keltec down in Florida.
The carbine is not a plastic toy as some folks consider it , it is a rugged, reliable, accurate and simple little carbine. And they are legal on those anti gun states.
The family should love one. They are light and they are fun. They kick though so the break is a welcome addition.
 
1stmarine,

I recently have shot my Kel Tec su-16 alpha model and I really enjoyed it. It is a light and fun to shoot rifle.My problem is that the fiber optic sight is just not for me. It is pretty difficult for me to put the sight on any target around 50 yards out.For human shaped target around 30 yards i was okay but anything over that i was way off. I have no problem with my Mosin or svt-40 or any of my other rifles' globe and standard iron sights around 100 yards or so,but id like to remove it for the scope im going to mount on it. Do you have any advice on taking it off? I cant find anything about how to remove them. Thanks!
 
midtennpawnstar,
The posts are polymer and can be taken off with a bit of heat and pressure.
Not a torch but more like a hair dryer or a paint heater with some distance.
You do not want to melt the whole thing in case you want to put it back with some locktyte.

My advice though is not to take it off. Try the scope first with mid or high rings or raiser it should not be in the way. Actually read the thread here as you should be able to enjoy both the scope and standard sights using see through rings or raisers.

Furthermore I think the sights are quite good I although I recognize they look and feel odd at first. I think that they are too coarse for any longer range target and there is little fiddling and adjustment but it can be done.
I have done this with a couple of the keltecs including the SUB2000 that uses the same type of coarse front sights.

Take the front sight out and sharp the top edge like if it was a knife blade.
You can use a file and very find sandpaper to finish the desired profile. Make it as thin as you can in the edge (not the whole thing). Then put it bad a adjust. Find the wanted elevation for the average wanted range. Then work on the windage. The result will surprise you and still you should be able to use a scope.
If you make it see trough you can use the scope to get the open sight adjustment dead on where you want it. You just have to spend a few loads to get the system tuned for your needs.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
E.
 
1stmarine
I have two related cleaning questions. How often, or how many rounds (in general) should we do a full take down for cleaning.

I just scoped my Alpha today and looking at some of the YouTube take down video we have to remove the scopes for cleaning. Since that’s the case what the trick to put the scope back so that it’s still dialed in, do you notch the rails?

Thank you in advance
 
HD Ride,
You do not need to take down the scope for cleaning. That is totally unnecessary. The carbine folds down and not up. use a scope cover or clean towel and with you will be ok.
Some folks clean their systems every day some they never clean them. I do clean them pretty frequently but I try to be reasonable and depends on what ammo I am shooting. (russian puffins for plinkin are very dirty) The carbines are chrome lined so even if you do not clean that often and you shoot some questionable ammo corrosion should not be a concern but I would clean it anyway if that was the case with some surplus ammo. It is a demonstrated fact that some systems actually run better dirty than clean. Some folks have gone as much as 4K rounds w/o cleaning the SU16's and they still work w/o any malfunctions although I would not do that neither.
For normal UMC, PMC, Remington, Federal, etc.. decent quality/clean ammo I would clean every 200 to 400 ore even 500 rounds. You could do more often but a just a quick cleaning. I would not do a total breakdown very often as cleaning also creates wear in both the parts and the patience. For example if I know I am going to be shooting a couple of hundred rounds for 3 weekends every weekend that are also close together, I would wait and do not do the cleaning for those first weeks. Then after done (maybe a season thing) I would strip clean and put the carbine away if I knew I was not going to fire it for a few months. So, be reasonable, be clean but not paranoid about cleaning.
These can be nice bush rifles and with the chrome lining can take a lot of dust and stuff, just do not disregard the firearm like some do and eventually do a preventive maintenance when needed.
 
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midtennpawnstar,
No problem. I got to know these little carbines and like them a lot. I Am also looking from other's experiences to learn from them.
Keltec loves polymers and locktite. They use it in the barrel assemblies, posts, etc...
Just try what I told you before you take it off. If you want I can take a picture of my post. The sharpen post with the nice orange color makes a big difference.
In the past I have made posts with simple materials like a very fine nail after head treating and achieved what I wanted. I don't think there is one single system out there that doesn't need some sort of tuning or adaptation to get the most of it from that system-shooter combination.

Hopefully something simple like this or raising the comb and things or that nature. Customization without purpose other than cosmetics is not my thing.
Function, reliability and accuracy is what I want.
 
As per 1stmarine's recommendation I picked up a Burris 2-7x26 Timberline Ball scope for my SU16A, I liked it so much I scoped my Mini14 as well. Today was the maiden voyage for both scopes and the second time out for the Kel-Tec, no jams today, I guess it's starting to break-in...

This is from about 30 yards. Obviously I need work dialing them both in as the SU16 goes left and the Mini goes right, hopefully next trip out I could do a little better.
 

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Yeah! things are starting to look good!
What about the scopes? How did you like them?
When you have a light carbine there are some techniques to help holding the stock and hold breathing + minimize the movement from your own heart beat.

Those groups start to close for a carbine not fully broken in.

Nice Job!
 
The scopes are great, thank you again. I'm very much looking forward to going back and getting them dialed in. Yes I have a lot of work to do, I think the big thing for me is just getting relaxed. Either way I'm glad I got back into in. The SU16 is starting to break-in very nicely, it is fun to shoot! Like you said it will shoot anything from some Old Chinese ammo that I got close to 20 years ago to some Lake City XM193A, it loved it all today and was looking for more..
 
Well, I was about to join the group. I sold a few rifles in the last month and I was getting ready to pull an order for a 16CA, when I was at the gun-smith droping off some work and I came across a Python 6" in nice tight condition.

They are hard enough to come by in California that you don't let one slip by. I had missed three in the last year and I been hankering for one for oh say 20 years. As I was buying it the guy behind me wanted to know how often I came in that shop and how did he miss it, was I really going to buy it, etc?

So the Kel-Tec will have to wait a little longer. Maybe I'll sell another safe queen in the meantime :)
 
Well,
That is a good reason to skip on the keltec once more. I held a 8" python once and I really liked it. People love them that's why they are hard to get.
Don't miss on the keltec next time.

Good buy. Congrats.

Cheers,
E.
 
Cowitness at the same level is pretty much useless. Make your scope to supplement your iron sights. Not a problem for the Keltec. This is a nice value added feature.

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ONE SHOT ZERO

1) Mount the scope accurately and securely. Use some blue locktite in the screws. Do not over tight. Make sure there is relieve in the
bottom (can use tiny plastic wrap to use as a shim on the rings) and make sure is leveled to the mount. When using a modern mount, a business card or something thinner, even paper should slide underneath, that way you know you are not bottoming out. Make the permanent scope is securely
attached to the rail. Use pressure washers and/or blue locktite if necessary. vibration from firing is the main case of out of zero failure. Do not over tight.

2) See if you can mount a 2nd scope using a 1 o'clock or piggy back mount for a 2nd small scope, small red dot or if not you will have
to do with the sights anyway. Ensure you can remove the 2nd scope or red-dot after done w/o disturbing the 1st and permanent scope.

3) Bring the ammo you normally shoot and sandbags or other firm support.

4) At the range Cover the target cardboard with white paper. 4 to 6 Letter papers will do. The key is that you see the whole target wherever it might hit. Then place a one dot 2 to 3 inches right in the middle. Use a gray, pink or light blue. Printed black might not allow you to see the hole if you hit it.

5) Place the target at 25yards. Make sure is in line with the back stop but not too high. The closest you can to the same plain level of the muzzle but obviously make sure of the range rules and it is in line with the backstop.

6) Use a laser boresight to get around the bulkpark area of impact and then after that remove the laser and place the rifle in the sand bags securely and aligned so the 1st and permanent scope is aiming at the target. Load and get ready.

7) carefully aim to the target bullseye in the center and make sure the rifle is fully stabilized. Use your crosshairs to zero on that target precisely. Then slowly initiate the shot. Shoot at the dot. Bang.

8) Now look for the actual point of impact. If you are right in the target then repeat the shot after a few minutes and see if that is the case by repetition but most likely after the first shot you will be off. Hopefully not too much so it will show somewhere in the white paper / target area.

9) now before you take the 2nd shot place the 2nd scope or red-dot and/or iron sights in the point of impact while maintaining the 1st scope in the dot.
Do not touch or adjust the 1st main scope! adjust only the 2nd system and irons until the 2nd systems and always irons are over the impact hole while the 1st scope aims exactly where you took the shoot to in the bullseye. It might take several adjustments of the 2nd scope and iron sights until both are where they should be. Verify several times. Take your time.

10) Ok. Now when the 2nd scope and iron sights are in the bullet hole and the main scope in the center target we are not going to touch the 2nd scope and irons anymore! They are exactly where we want them to be. Now adjust the 1st main scope only so the crosshairs overlap precisely whit the 2nd scope or red-dot and the iron sights. We want you to see through
the 1st scope precisely the same point as the 2nd scope or iron sights.
You can use any reference in the target. The bullseye for example as we want the 1st scope to land where the 2nd scope and irons are.
Verify this several times. Take your time.
When they match precisely all scopes and irons should be dead on or pretty darn close.

11) now it is time to take the shot again with the 1st main scope to the center dot. take your time. Use the sandbags again for stabilization and BANG!

12) By now you should be dead on. If not something went wrong and you have to repeat. I am suggesting a red-dot or even a cheap small scope as this will allow you to be more precise but anyway you are going to zero the iron sights as well anyway. As the bravo sights lack of quick adjustment I want you to adjust the iron sight a bit lower just over the tip of
the peep as the .223 will climb up to 125yards or so. I zero my iron sight to 125 yards.

By now you should right down the load, the yardage and then the adjustment in both the elevation and windage knobs.
Save all this notes for reference. The burris will keep a good zero if properly installed.

From here you could simply adjust to 200 yards and calculate the climb and drop in MOA. that Scope will give you 1/4MOA for every click.
Do not remove the 2nd scope until later in the day, It might come handy to compare before and after adjustment after you move up on every range.

I suggest to move in 25yards increments and write down the adjustment so that way you can map the elevation adjustment of your scope to the actual result. Hopefully it will not be windy so you can learn with only one variable only (drop) and leave windage for another day .
Anyway write down the wind and temperature in your log.

If you know your ballistics profile then all you need to do is to translate the inches to the MOA setting in your scope. The nice thing about the burris is that it is easy to make simple corrections up to 425yards using the compensation reticule and w/o using the elevation adjustments.

Let me know if you need help to converting the inches to MOA with this scope. I have done a little as I tend to spend more time with my long range systems than the carbines but the method is the same.

Cheers,
E.
 
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