Knife vs. Gun at Contact Distance

[Blackhawk 6]

Just offering an expereince for your consideration and comment....

A few monthes ago I acquired a waved CQC-7 for my EDC knife. Over the past few monthes I casually practiced drawing the knife and opening it using both the wave feature and the thumb button.

Last night I was dry-firing my pistol. Specifically, I was using my timer with the par time set in an effort to improve my draw time. As I was finishing up, on a whim, I decided to see how the time it took to access my knife compared to my draw times for my pistol. At the beep I went for my knife. I was truly suprised when I was able to produce my knife and a substantial amount of time passed before my timer sounded for the second time.

I continued to reduce the par time on my timer until my knife was open and I was able to deliver a thrust as the second beep sounded. To be fair, I reassessed my draw times to a close-quarters retention position and my knife times were still about .2 seconds faster.

The fact that a knife is lethal at close range is not new to me. I have always augmented my daily carry gun with at least one knife and considered it integrated into my personal defense strategy. Up until now, I always considered the knife a back-up to my gun, for use as an escape tool or to aid in weapon retention. I had always considered my primary lethal response at contact distance to be my gun, however, after last night's experiment, I am re-evaluating my plans.

I would be interested to know how many of you, who carry both a knife and gun daily, consider your knife to be your primary weapon to respond to a lethal threat at contact distance, say less than five feet.

 

[hillbilly]

Check around the Internet for the "Tueller Drill."

It's a shooting drill that shows that a person with a knife or any edged or impact weapon (hammer, baseball bat, ax, shovel, screwdriver, etc) is a direct and imminent threat to you if that person is within 7 yards.

Most police officers are trained that a person with a knife who is closer than 7 yards can stab or cut them before they can stop them with a gun.

I run a version of the Tueller Drill with every single CCW student I get.

Most of them, even with the gun already in hand, cannot hit a target twice before the "assailant" can cover 10 yards.

Cutting that distance down to around 7 yards takes lots of practice and training.

So, heck yeah "primitive" weapons are deadly weapons.

All the attacker has to do is get within 7 yards before rushing you and you can easily wind up toast.

hillbilly

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Hillbilly,

Thanks for the reply. I am well acquainted with the Teuller Drill and the effectiveness of a knife a close range. My question was whether anyone was intentionally employing their knife instead of their in response to an attack at close range.

My apologies for not being clear.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Does this apply when the attacker has a gun or not?

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I would be interested in hearing your comments for when the attacker has a gun, knife, club, etc. if it makes a difference.

 

[JamisJockey]

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[hillbilly]

Okay, I got it now.

You are asking if any of us would purposefully choose the knife over a gun at contact range.

Of course, under certain circumstances, some of us would go with the knife.

Every day, because of where I work, I am forced to have nothing but a knife with a 3.25 inch blade. I can't legally have a gun where I work.

I also keep various legal implements like hammers about my workspace, just in case.

But, if you are actually stopping to choose "which one do I go for, knife or gun?" then I think you might already be dead by the time you make your decision.

hillbilly

 

[JamisJockey]

because of where I work, I am forced to have nothing but a knife with a 3.25 inch blade. I can't legally have a gun where I work.

Funny, I'm in the same situation. I work on Federal property. My biggest concern comes from the travel to and fro. I work in a gated facility with an armed (inadequately, IMHO) guard. If I didn't have very specific job training, a very good job, and make good money, I'd be looking for something else that allowed me more flexibility, but its just not practical for me.

 

[PieThatCorner]

I think hillbilly's hit upon the key points re: the knife vs gun scenario - and although I'm in no way, shape, or form a knife fighting expert (or amateur for that matter), I do carry both a holstered pistol and a 3.5" Benchmade auto-knife.

I frequently practice drawing my knife to the open position, particularly because of its design & function (sometimes I just prefer the simplicity of a manual flip-open knife). But as hillbilly has pointed out, I believe each close-quarter confrontation merits its own response, be it edged weapon or firearm - every situation can be dynamically different from one another. I'd have to agree that given the time constraints of reacting to an attack, a conscious decision to consider the options available puts the defender even further behind the power curve.

 

[bukijin]

Have you tried the emerson reversed in the front left pocket ? (Using the wave against the front edge of the pocket) It comes out in a reverse grip but would give you both left and right hand options at that range. I'm into options myself.

A knife has 'killing power' but no way it has the 'stopping power' of a firearm. However, I can envisage the possibility that a knife might be more useful than a gun in certain situations.

 

[hillbilly]

I forget where I read this, but I think it may serve as an example.

It was a tactical what-if session, with instructors assessing the responses that came in.

The situation was you were in a fast-food place with your wife and kids.

You had a folding 3.5 inche knife, a CCW handgun, and a cell phone with you.

The situation was in June, in the heat, a weird looking guy in a black trench coat comes in the restaurant and sort of hovers near the cash register, pretending to be in line, but not really seeming to be in line.

You know something is wrong, and now, you have to take action...........

Lots of answers came in..... The one that got the best response from the thread observers was something like as follows.....


1) Tell your wife and kids to get ouf the restaurant immediately and go to the car. Have wife take cell phone and tell her to watch inside and dial 911 if she sees anything bad happen.

2) Take your knife out discreetly under the table, and fold a napkin over it so it looks like you just have a napkin in your hand.

3) Go stand "in-line" behind the werido in the trench coat, as near as you can with the "napkin" casually in your hand.

4) Wait until wife and kids have safely exited the restaurant and reached the car, and then do the same.

The point was that the knife was easier to conceal in your hand than the gun, and less likely to cause mass panic in the burger joint, but still allowed you to have weapon already in your hand should throw-down time arrive suddenly.


By closing the distance to the weirdo, you would put yourself in a position to act should something bad happen....but also, you weren't acting like a Rambo vigilante, but merely providing cover until your wife and kids got to the car and then you could leave and observe from outside with the cell phone ready to call the cavalry should the need arise.


But that made sense to me in the specifics of that situation .

 

[pax]

hillbilly,

One of the things Tony Blauer teaches in his hand to hand classes is the phrase, "Closest weapon, closest target."

He would say that what you could do if you had .2 sec more time isn't the same as what you can do with the time you've actually got. And what you could do if you had more space, were in a better stance, hadn't been caught off guard, etc, isn't the same as what you can do with the circumstances you've got. Don't wait for perfection, go with what you've got.

That doesn't mean plan to go for the weaker weapon. It doesn't mean plan to go for the stronger weapon. It means plan to commit whatever mayhem you can with whatever (weapon, circumstance, stance, time) you've got.

It's all good.

pax

 

[hillbilly]

That makes a lot of sense, pax.

If a bad guy comes through my window, and I've got a hammer a foot away and a shotgun in the next room, I'm grabbing the hammer and whaling away with it rather than running and hoping I can make it to the shotgun.

hillbilly

 

[juggler]

VERY good thread, I will be running the Tueller this weekend. We are allowed 4" of cutting edge in a folder here, so I carry a Kershaw semi-serated. I also practice opening it quickly and discretely, and spend part of H2H training on knife techniques.
Upon consideration I would have to say that the variables of where/when/how fast to react would influence my decision/reaction. If BG is pointing a gun/shooting, the knife fight/gunfight therory holds true. If he is close with a bat, blade, etc. I would fall back on the physical training until I had some distance. With distance already established first reaction would be to go for the gun. Pure armchair theorizing, as I believe Murphy will always be there to make things even more interesting.

 

[grnzbra]

Warning about Teuller Drill.

Tueller drill is an illustration of a problem, not a hard and fast rule.

I may seem to be picking nits here but,

is a direct and imminent threat to you if that person is within 7 yards

seems to say that beyond 7 yards he is not.

This is not the case. A Marina Del Ray police officer (Don't have my LFI notes here at work, so I can't give you the name and date) was killed by man armed with a knife of whom he became aware when the guy was about 50 yards away.

If someone armed with a knife is 20 yards away and seriously threatening you, while you can't shoot him, you had better be start to deal with him in some manner. While it might be a little early to draw on him, it's not too soon to be in condition red. Two of the three elements are in place, and as the Teuller drill shows, the third one can fall into place quite quickly.

Beware the man who brings a knife to a gunfight; he might just know what he is doing.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I had heard about the so called advantage of a knife over a gun inside 7 yards, and I didn't believe it. A friend and I improvised a Tueller-type experiment to test that hypothesis, and we were both shocked by the results. Tueller is right, a knife is significantly faster than a gun in most circumstances.

We learned a few other little details during our experimentation which might interest you:
A handgun is obviously the slowest to draw and attack with.
A folding knife clipped to a pocket is slightly faster than a gun, and requires good dexterity (it's possible to"miss" the thumbstud and not get the knife open fully, especially when you're in a hurry)
An automatic (switchblade) folding pocket knife is no faster than a normal folding pocket knife, and sufferes the same dexterity problems.
A fixed blade knife is dramatically faster than a foldin knife or a gun. This is especially true when the knife is carried in a way that allows the user to draw the knife and attack in the same motion.

We also found that a double action trigger pull is pretty slow. Try this test: A "defender" holds an "attacker" at gunpoint with a gun (unloaded!!!) with a DA trigger pull. The two are close enough that the attacker can reach the defender's gun. The attacker tries to knock the defender's gun away. As soon as the defender sees the attacker moving for his gun, he tries to pull the trigger and "fire" on the attacker.

What we found when we ran this test was that the defender can rarely get the hammer to fall before his gun was knocked away from the attacker. What's worse, we found that if the attacker is quick enough, he can usually draw/attack with a fixed blade knife before the defender can get his shot off. (The defender is especially screwed if the attacker has the wherewithall to knock the gun away with one hand, and draw/attack with a fixed blade with his other hand.) We also found that a single action trigger pull greatly increased the defender's odds. The chances were closer to 50/50 that the defender, with a SA pull, could drop the hammer while the gun was still aimed at the attacker.

Never underestimate a knife, folks. A knife is just as lethal as a gun (possibly more lethal than a gun), and much quicker, too.

 

[fix]

Incidental contact with the knife during a struggle is harmful. Incidental contact with the gun during the same struggle is not. In other words, it's tougher to disarm a knife wielding opponent. The blade of the knife is the weapon. It is deadly by it's very existence. It is the projectile, not the gun that is the weapon (muzzle strikes and the like excluded). The knife need only be present to do harm to your opponent. The projectile requires assistance. Of course, there's a flip side to that as with everything. I hesitate to call them equal in close contact, because my instincts (and some experience) tell me that the knife has the edge. Pun intentional.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Incidental contact with the knife during a struggle is harmful. Incidental contact with the gun during the same struggle is not

Would it follow that (within 7 yds), you would rush toward a gun, but run away from a knife? If you were armed with a handgun, would you be better off attempting to draw and fire, or duck and rush against a drawn gun?

 

[sanchezero]

Taking the discussion of the tueller drill out of this and getting back to strictly CQC...

All things being equal, I consider the gun to be my primary tool and the knife a backup. The firearm provides more options, the most important being that it's still a viable weapon once you break contact. The knife works in a support role to aid in gun retention or to use if the gun is outta the fight for some reason.

This is not to say that the knife is never a viable option. I carry my knife on my 'weak' side and if I needed a weapon and my strong hand were indisposed, I'd certainly go for the knife 1st, but with the intent of getting the gun in play ASAP.

It is important to note that for most of us, our actions will be reactive. When we need our weapon it is likely that we're already being shot at, stabbed or beaten and so it becomes a matter of expediency: which hand do you need the least to fend off your attacker(s)? Which weapon isn't smothered by some dillhole thats choking you?

If you have time to choose, then it's all a moot point. If you want, use both, one in each hand. It's those times when someone else is effectively deciding for you that you need to be prepared for.

 

[sanchezero]

A knife is just as lethal as a gun (possibly more lethal than a gun), and much quicker, too.

I disagree with this.

It is certainly easier to produce an instant stop with a firearm. It's very difficult to manage a CNS shutdown with a knife against a resisting opponent. I don't think it's easy vs a compliant subject, either (ubersecret-ninja sentry elimination techniques included).

There are two elements of speed to examine: deployment and 'shot to shot' time.

Deployment is a training issue and as people have stated in this thread and elsewhere many people (me included) can produce their blades quicker than their handguns. But then the blade needs to make contact and alot can happen here to keep that from happening. Frequently, victims of knife attacks get their arms chewed up pretty good. It's because they tend to be in the way. Superficial cuts are not gonna do it against a determined attacker.

As for split time, the gun rules. By it's nature, it's most effective when not in contact. I can pull it out of the fight and dump my magazine into my opponent. It's significantly more difficult for him to prevent me from pulling the trigger that to prevent me from stabbing him. My split times when running full throttle average about .11-.13 sec. 8-9 rnds a sec (nearly 540rnds/min if I had a really big magazine) That's not aiming, but this isn't an aiming kinda exercise. When stabbing a padded post like a sewing machine (think prison shanking), I'm significantly slower. That also assumes that I have a completely clear line to work with.

Knives are dangerous. To think that a gun will always beat a knife is stupid. But guns are dominant for a reason.

 

[fix]

Would it follow that (within 7 yds), you would rush toward a gun, but run away from a knife?

The context of the discussion as I understood it put the contact at within 5 feet, per the original poster.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I read somewhere that a surprisingly high proportion (perhaps 2/3 to 3/4) of people shot by a handgun survive, provided they live in a metropolitan area with quick access to a hospital. I don't have any citation for that, and I don't remember the details precisely.

I had the opportunity to train with a master knife fighter for about a year. I can't express how incredibly lethal this man is with a knife. Watching him and working with him have convinced me that my odds of surviving a fight against a competant knife fighter, at contact distance, is absolutely zero. Even if I have my gun, even if I'm not caugt by surprise, I will be killed. Not just defeated or incapacitated, but killed.

After a year of training, I still don't have a significant degree of skill with a knife. But I can now begin to understand what my teacher is doing, usually, and that only makes it scarier. I can also begin to respect how difficult it is to attain that level of skill. The average thug with a knife will not have that kind of skill. We should be thankful for that.

 

[Mulliga]

The knife is fine if you know how to use it. Same goes with a gun. It's always software, not hardware.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I read on this thread about amazingly skilled knife-fighters, and I believe it. But aren't there amazingly skilled gunfighters, as well? People who can draw and fire 2 shots from a revolver almost quicker than the eye can see? You can draw and attack in one motion with a knife, yes, but can't you also do the same thing with a handgun?

 

[c_yeager]

Yeah a knife is quite deadly. but it kills in a different way from a gun. It takes a comparitively LOOOONG time to die from a knife wound. Yeah you may cut the other guys throat. But in the three minutes it takes him to die from that wound how many times is he gonna be able to shoot you in the head?

The fact is that a knife kills in minutes and a gun kills in seconds. I'll take a gun EVERYTIME thank you very much.

 

[Steve Moses]

I think that if the red flag goes up at near contact distance, and I have access to both a handgun and a knife, I am going to be hard-pressed to make a conscious decision to choose one tool over the other. To that end, I focus both on learning how to best use a handgun at contact distances as well as a knife, and pray and hope that if the need arises, I will be able to effectively deploy whatever tool I happen to have in my hand.

I will choose always choose a handgun over a knife because the handgun allows me the opportunity to mount an effective defense from 0-15 yards, and the knife's effective zone is much more truncated.

As far as knives go, you don't always have to get a CNS hit to render him incapable of fighting back effectively. You can do a lot of damage in a very short time to tendons, ligaments and eyeballs. I hope that my adversary's ability to continue his assault is dampened by his inability to use his weapon-bearing arm or see me. Naturally, training is required in order to use the knife, whereas no training is required to effectively use a handgun. Yeah, right.............

Was it Mushashi that said that a warrior should favor no particular weapon?