The proper role of a knife in personal protection.

[roo_ster]

Use of Knives

I generally have 2+ on my person: Leatherman Micra, Leatherman Supertool, and the dreaded "tactical folder." It happens to be the most underrated pig-sticker I've found: a Beretta with a portion of the blde body excised with an aluminum grip & no clip.

The Leatherman get used 99 times for evry time I've used the Beretta to cut, slice, open, whatever. Just handy to have around.

As to a knife fight, I would do everything I could to avoid it. I've had training with rifles, pistols, knives, & open-hand and I'd much rather off somebody at a distance, despite my size & strength (6'0, 275 powerlifter) and and despite my open-hand & knife training (a few years here & there: dojos, military, kickboxing, others). I'd rather see two bullet holes in HIM than a bloody cut on ME.

The Beretta knife is on me in case...I can't keep the BG at any distance.

Even for an untrained fellow, a knife beats harsh language or the "Shalala Technique."

 

[mercop]

The chances of you being assaulted by and edged weapon far outweighs the chances of you being assaulted with a firearms. Screwdrivers and kitchen knives abound. To defend against them you have to know how to use them. Most people who have a blade pulled on them at conversation distance will attempt to move away. Or if they have a gun they will attempt to draw it while moving away. Either way you get cut ******* to elbow. You must trap the blade close to the body (since blades are motion weapons) then disable the attacker. I teach edged weapons and carry several for different reasons.

 

[Checkman]

One of the first things I was instructed in after I was hired by my department was the dangers involved with "edged weapons". I was sat down in front of the tv and vcr by my training officer and had to watch a video that is produced by a company called Caliber Press. The video is titled "Surving Edged Weapon Attacks" and has interviews with officers who have been attacked and dramatic scenarios. In the video they address the fact that screwdrivers,razors, glass, plastic shards, cleavers, forks,swords,arrowheads and knives are all edged weapons and can be very dangerous.
The video also shows guys trained in knife fighting and how very fast they can be. Very enlightning.
Incidentally the general rule of thumb for edged weapons is to keep a minimum of 21 feet between you and the knife wielder. The video demonstrates this by having officers confronting the knife fighter. Under 21 feet they might get off a few shots but he still makes contact. Over 21 feet they usually get off some shots and are able to avoid their attacker. Of course the video also aknowledges that one dosen't always have the luxury of 21 feet. Officers especially don't get that since their job frequently takes them into homes and close proximety with suspects.
Incidentally I carry a Gerber folding knife as a tool, but I work at drawing it quickly. You never know, but I'm not under any illusions about being a knife fighter.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

With a folder, closed, in my hand, starting stock still, feet even, upright posture, I can close 21 feet, opening the knife while moving, and stab multiple times in roughly 2 seconds. I can close and get in a first thrust or slash in about 1.5 seconds.
I'm not a knife fighter, nor am I a runner - I'm heavier built, and probably a little more out of shape, than a lot of these scrawny fleet footed 'bangers you see, I'm even asthmatic, - but I can, repeatedly, close that distance in that time frame.
I can also draw my knife, have it open if its a folder, and defend or be read to defend an edged weapons attack, in under 2 seconds. I cant get a gun out that fast, not from a belt holster, definately not IWB, or in a shoulder rig.

Even if I was carrying a gun (something I only do on family property at this point) I would carry edged weapons and make it a point to learn to use them.

I already do carry edged weapons and have made it a point to learn their use.
My EDC is usually:
Kershaw Talon
Spyderco "Tsunami'd" Endura
Emerson La griffe
ComTech Stinger a/o Koppo stick
Wouldnt change even if I was carrying a pistol.

Someone gets to me before I get to the pistol, they get cut. They try to get the pistol, they get cut. I end up down on the ground, rolling around, fightign them off, cant get to my pistol, cant use it in those tight quarters, they get stabbed. a lot.
In my car, easier to grab the Endura clipped on my seat-belt, than fiddly-fart around inside my pants, or under the seat, for the pistol.
Theres a million potential ways your access to your gun could be restricted, where it wouldnt be to your knife. Go ahead, take my gun, keep me from using it, when I just sheared the meat off the inside of your forearm like I peeled a banana.
Thats the proper role of a knife in personal protection.

I suggest James A. Keating, Michael Janich, and our own Brownie as people to start out looking to for knife information.

 

[sanchezero]

Gray, Is that a 'SoCo' Kershaw or one of the newer ltd eds?

Thats pretty good, you closing the gap like that. I've actually had alot of guys try but nobody's come close without taking at least 3 and usually 5-6 rnds of Airsoft/Sims. Even at about 12ft I can get hits, but they're right on toppa me so I have to work on that weapon hand.

I guess I need to find a better class of people to train with . Actually, I kinda got into an argument with an aquaintance recently about this very thing. I'm taking my Airsoft stuff to the next IDPA match to beat him down. But, I KNOW he can't close it so that doesn't help me much.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

Its a SoCo

I've never been able to compare myself to others at that - dont have anyone to air-soft train with. Just get someone with a timer (hold a timer, "suure", go at it with AirSoft, and the answer goes to noo, "they sting" ), and a static target, and move. Need to get out there with a friend and do the AirSoft thing someday, from both sides.

 

[sanchezero]

I've spent hours (OK, several minutes at least) looking for a SoCo all over the infernalnet. It seems like you SDF ba$turds bought 'em all up .

I've gotta P-sark and have waved a coupla Spydercos. I'm actually waiting on a mini griptilian to do. Should be here any day now...

Airsoft rules for this kinda stuff. I got my rig (G19 copy, spare mag, 5000pellets and a can of gas) for about $120. Defeinitely one of the best investments I've made.

 

[Glamdring]

IMO a combat folder is not intended to be used in a knife on knife fight. Rather it is a faster to deploy weapon than concealed handgun. It is something to buy you time, just like situational awareness.

If used for self defense it would normaly be deployed as a surprise using words or words and motion with empty hand to distract goblins attention while you stab or cut or stab in and cut out (best).

It can also be used as a distraction device, throwing knife at goblin while drawing gun.

Also there may be occasions were lethal force is justified, but you might not want to use firearm. Say friends or family (or other no shoot targets) are behind or near goblin. Or goblin has grabbed child.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

Sanchezero - waved Griptilian is as fast as a SoCo. Its not the tool itself, so much as it is the application. I could live without my SoCo, probably with a Waved Griptilian, actually.
I posted a want ad on BFC to get mine, got a regular model, thumb-stud, had Kershaw swap the blade for me. I dont know if they have any bottle opener blades left or not now though.

Glamdring - check out volume four of James Keatings American Blade Craft tapes for combative throwing info. Its different from spor throwing. You throw close, no turns involved, you want it to fly straight, like a dart. Can throw under hand, over hand, or side-hand. Arm cocked at elbow, straighten it hard and fast, realease knife at "x" to hit desired target. Play with it a little, not a hard method of throwing to learn, easiest way to start is throwing into something on the ground infront of your feet, the sort of no-spin throw you use for that applies to upright throwing, so work fromt here up against an old board or something. I am self taught like that - but the mentioned Keating tape shows the basics of close throwing, he uses bowies, but you can use folders too. Endura works nicely for this method.

 

[Glamdring]

Well, IMHO throwing a knife is a distraction technique. I don't think Mr Keating would have a good chance of seriously hurting someone with a thrown Spyderco Native (I KNOW I don't!). But unless my dander was really up I would flinch from thrown knife.

 

[Gray_Fallen]

I dont think Jim expects to win the fight with a thrown knife.... nor do any of us, but having 2" or 3" of cold steel sticking in your thigh, groin, stomach, would be a great distraction.
I feel pretty confident with the right tools (one of them being my Spyderco Endura) that if I had to, I could stick it in someone and then close ont hem with the other knife.
I wouldnt make a plan of it - if I want a distraction thats what OC is good for, bother them for a minute, then get them with something better. Rather not throw them a tool to use against me. But... its still a consideration I play with from time to time.
If one is going to do it, one should try to make it as damaging as possible, thats my take.

 

[XLMiguel]

A most interesting thread, many good insights.

I agree with all points regarding the seriousness of the threat of edged weapons. Even a klutz can get lucky. When I was pup we used to 'knife fight' with magic markers in our skivvies in the barracks, a most enlightening experience. One would often end up with 'cuts' in the most unimagineable places, not to mention embarassing and dangerous places.

I almost always have some sort of knife on me, usually/mostly for utility purposes, but in a pinch, it beats harsh language. I figure if I have to use my knife defensively, my opponent will be wondering why they's bleeding before then realize I've got a knife.