The proper role of a knife in personal protection.

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Knives are incredibly deadly when used as weapons, especially if you're trained. Espada y Daga Kali is a Phillippine martial art based on knife fighting and is blunt, brutal, and lethal. If you are facing someone with a knife who is trained you are in deep trouble. Respect/take all knives very seriously.
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This makes me wish I knew more about knives.

"Do you know how to fight with one?"

"Sure, pointy end goes in the other man."

The above, unfortunately sums up my knife fighting understanding.

BTW, I'm gonna boot this one over to Strat/Tac.
 
Idiot carrying a knife...

Idiot carrying a knife.
And the idiot is me! For the past 6 months I've carried a 3.5" Gerber EZ-Out with the cool finger holes. Dropping it into my pocket this morning I reflected on why. "If I am attacked I might need it", I originally thought.

Well, I have absolutely zero training in edged weapons. I'm probably more likely to cut myself than an attacker. Plus, if held up at gunpoint, I sure am not drawing a knife. So basically, I'm either going to get into a knife fight, which I have no clue on tactics, or cut an unarmed man, which would not be looked on favorably in liberal MD.

Plus, here in MD our knife laws are cloudy, but with the anti self defense attitude of LEOs I doubt I could convince them that a 3.5" knife with 3 triangular finger holes and a pocket clip is being used to cut open packages.

So basically, until I get some training on knife self defense I think I'll stick to the OC spray (I have a Leatherman Micra for really opening packages ). And write some more to my state reps about shall-issue (every little bit helps!).


This is from another thread I started a couple months ago. I basically fell for the "gun nuts carry knives as a status symbol stuff". Now its just OC spray, haven't toted a knife for 2 months....I did research the MD knife laws and that part seems OK, though I still do not trust an LEO not to classify a knife that looks like that as a weapon.
 
It is a force multiplier, like any other tool. Happens to be more convenient to carry around than a big rock. That cane recommendation is a really good alternative with more reach and even more social acceptance.

If you need to defend yourself against deadly force, the only reason to pull a knife or gun, I can't see how it is somehow worse than bare hands. Yes, an untrained individual might cut themselves or have it taken away. So what? Remember the whole "defending against deadly force" thing? Since when is a poorly used weapon worse than no weapon? (okay, shooting yourself or bystanders probably counts as worse than none but...)

Some people probably do carry a knife as a talisman to somehow ward off harm. As long as it doesn't change your awareness or rational response to threats, so what? Delusion is not inherently harmful.
 
I'm not exactly sure what the point of learning knife-on-knife fighting is. That's almost never going to happen, unless you are in prison.

Personally I view the knife as simply an additional leverage against the unknown. It has a nice surprise factor that allows you to disengage and run for it. Hopefully the other guy can't catch you after being stabbed in the groin or armpit. If you have a serious chance of getting into touble, pack a firearm.

Never bring a knife to a knifefight.
 
I see myself using a knife in self defense against a surprise grappling attack that takes me to the ground or up off my feet before I know what is happening. Targets would be tendons and ligaments in the arms and the groin if grabbed from behind. If from the front anything I could get to, but the groin and liver would feature prominently as would the eyes if I could get my hand that high. The point in all of this would be to disable my attacker enough that he has to let go either from his limbs not working any more or blood loss induced weakness. I want to get away, not kill the guy. If he happens to die because of it is his tough luck and my problem to convince the jury it was justified.

If for some reason I had to use a knife offensively my tactic would be to use the "Folsom Rush" style of attack. Basically get in close, grab hold of the other guy (if he has a weapon obviously you want to try to grab the weapon arm) and start stabbing repeatedly until he goes down. I have done a bit of sparring with rubber knives and this is what seems to work the best for me in the open mat area of a dojo. At close quarters (simulated using walls and free standing punching bags close together) though I have found the techniques of Aikido are surprisingly effective. The only reason I could justify this type of attack is if an innocent was being attacked (in a manner that could lead to death, maiming, or rape) and there was an accomplice standing between me and them with the purpose of keeping help from them.

As for training most of mine has come from messing around with my fellow martial artists between classes. The main thing I learned from it is that if you have any fear at all of being cut and hold back and try to "duel or fence" you will get carved like a Thanksgiving Day turkey. If you rush in like a psychopath whose only thought is to bury your knife into the other guy repeatedly at the most you will get dinged. Yeah you will take a cut, but it will be minor and not very deep.

Just what my experiences have shown me, your mileage may vary.
 
The knife, like any other defensive tool, is pretty much useless without appropriate training. One of the little appreciated values of knife training, in my experience, is the mindset shift that it engenders. After spending a day or two, in an appropriate setting, learning how to use and defend against a knife attack no one leaves with the same delusions they arrived with.

The knife is lethal force, same as a gun, so it's not carried/used as a lesser level of force. It's used in situations where lethal force is justifed and the gun is inappropriate or inaccessible or unavailable. If you cannot envision a situation where you might want to access a knife, you might need to work on your visualization skills. ;)

Once people understand the ranges that real fights occur, they seem to become more appreciative of 'things beside gun'. The knife is one of those things. I'd no sooner not carry a knife than I'd not carry a gun.
 
I have an Andujar butterfly knife...really nice but as I have very little practice with it I prefer leaving it at home and carrying my Glock 25..much more powerfull, easier to master and by some the use of a knife is considered to be "thug's weapon"......just trying to keep all the legalities and superior power by mi side..BTW, here in Peru there is no force continuus, you are just commanded to use rationality (That menas: If BG comes running and yelling to me with a rock, I can pop him and it will still be SD).

Rogelio
 
I carry knives to make myself more confident. I can't see myself pulling them out unless I was in the most dire of dire circumstances. However, they make me more confident. They put that spring in my step, that resolve in my shoulders, that convinces the predators that I am not to be messed with.

Most of the fights I have been in (thus probably will be in) would not have gone any better if I had pulled out a knife. I'd rather get my ??? kicked than get stabbed. Besides, I win most of 'em. ;)

Knives are also useful tools for utility. It is always good to have one around. It is a tool, much like a screwdriver, drill, sander, hammer.... gun.:) . It's just good to have one in case you need it.
 
KNIVES

Fascinating bunch of comments on this subject. I am always impressed by the wide range of opinions on any of the topics on this forum.

I was given my first knife as a birthday present in 1944 or so. Within three minutes I had cut myself. fortunately my parents believed that boys should be allowed to be boys, so they didn't take the knife away. I still have the scar, BTW, and I still carry a knife, actually, usually two or three, as well as a Leatherman tool. None of my knives are expensive or fancy (less than $75). They are intended to cut stuff, or to puncture stuff, as necessary, as efficiently as possible without attracting undue attention.

I had occasion to use a knife in self defense once, a little old folding Sears pocket knife with the tip broken off the blade. If I had not had the knife it would have gone the other way and I would be the one all gone.

I also carry a cane, a gun, pepper spray and a cell phone. I try to visualize this as all integrating into a personal protection system.

Most of the time I train, physically or by visualization for a situation where two or three of my tools would be put into play.

For instance, a bad dog when I am walking in the park. First the cane, to buy distance and time, then the pepper spray, then the cell phone.

A very important part of knife training is to practice drawing it and opening it without allowing your virtual opponent to see or even infer what you are doing. If your knife clicks when it opens, practice saying something at that moment to help cover the noise and provide a distraction. Do not let you elbow cock or your shoulder move.

IMHO, I do believe that the best response to an opponent with a knife is to use movement, the cane & then the spray to buy enough distance and time to shoot them to the ground.

Always win.
Always cheat
Never give up.

God bless and y'all be careful out there.:cool:
 
Hope you don't mind if I chip in a few ideas..

Knife is a good thing to have handy for all sorts of emergency cutting tasks rather than combat. I can imagine needing to cut a seatbelt, a rope, a net, clothing or hair in a hurry. I don't know how likely that would be, but if it was neccessary, then the knife had better be easily and quickly accessible.

As far as combat with a knife goes, it should be in your hand and hidden if you are planning on using it. ('ace up the sleeve'). You don't need wild swings or much power or speed to do a lot of damage with a knife. Don't cut or stab yourself !

If you know the other person has a knife, then the best defence is distance !

I also like my Al Mar SERE 2000. Some other good brands include emerson, benchmade, spyderco, MoD (etc..). Personally I like sharp plain blades (rather than serrations).
 
A couple of points that others have mentioned that I thought bear reiteration:

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Aikibiker Said:
If you rush in like a psychopath whose only thought is to bury your knife into the other guy repeatedly at the most you will get dinged.
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This is a beautiful example of the maxim, "The fight will always decrease to the closest range desired by one of the parties involved." If you want to fight at kicking range and your opponent wants to close, the fight will collapse to the closer range.

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Geezer Said:
A very important part of knife training is to practice drawing it and opening it without allowing your virtual opponent to see or even infer what you are doing.
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Silent openings are cool. Just drawing and getting the darned thing open under stress is very important. You'd be amazed at how many people carry one-hand opening knives and have never attempted to access them under any sort of stress load. Try this simple drill: Hit something for 5 to 10 seconds (heavy bag, speed bag, training partner, Spar-Pro, 4x4 post), just to get the blood flowing, then access your folder, open the blade and secure a solid grip. Those gross to complex motor skill transitions are not as easy as you might think.:)
 
The knife is lethal force, same as a gun, so it’s not carried/used as a lesser level of force. It’s used in situations where lethal force is justifed and the gun is inappropriate or inaccessible or unavailable.…
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Precisely! Truth be told, I have even less interest in being in a knife fight than in a gunfight. In my experience, edged weapons are also easier to use and more dangerous than firearms.


Knife is a good thing to have handy for all sorts of emergency cutting tasks rather than combat.
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Good point. I carry utility and emergency knives rather than fighting knives. Anything is better than nothing.

~G. Fink
 
Just wanted to add my experiences\opinions.
I carry an Emerson Super-Commander daily, and it is mainly used for utility. I also carry a Cold Steel dagger, 7in blade\kydex sheath. I have an extensive background in Kali\Escrima and a variety of empty-hand arts. I also normally carry a firearm of one sort or another. I view knives as having a big part in the scheme of self-defense and being ready for anything that may happen. The way I carry my fixed blade, I can easily draw it and employ it faster than a handgun of any means at near-contact distance. As skunkabilly said, it doesn't need to be im battery to function properly. I have also been engaged in a few encounters where a direct blade presentation was my only option or solution to getting out of it. In each instance the bad guy also had a knife and was generally demanding money or my vehicle. In one such case, I was caught off-guard and the BG got so damn close, I honestly couldn't get my sidearm out without fear of getting into a wrestling match over it. My CS dagger, however came into play and he was not very pleased when he tried to grab it. Overall I must say that a quality knife, whether fixed or folding is an indespensible aid to one's safety, given the proper training and practice.
 
I think knives are important for several reasons:

1. In certain situations or positions they can be faster into action than any gun, especially at contact distances.

2. As astutely noted, your knife might be necessary to gain the time, space, or freedom to employ a gun.

3. Say that you are ambushed from behind, (I know, it will never happen to anyone here), and say you are hammerlocked around the head and neck, are you really going to employ a gun to get away, remember the kata that will instantly and painfully reverse the situation, or would you rather have something to slash and stab at the offending limb with?

4. I can carry a "tactical folder" (I hate that term) or sheath knife many places a firearm is prohibited, i.e. National Parks, posted anti-CCW locations, city parks, other states, etc. and likely remain legally armed in most jurisdictions without the hassle of getting permission from a governmental authority.

5. When unsure of the intentions of a person encountered in a place you'd rather not be, i.e. a parking structure at night with a gaggle of teens passing by or other caution required scenarios, you can have a folder ready to go and discreetly out of sight. For some peculiar reason, many people fear getting stabbed more than having a gun pointed at them, as if the steel is going to hurt more than jacketed lead.

6. I may be in the minority, but I am in the camp that says training in "knife fighting" is mostly a waste of cash and time. Firearms training? YES. Knife fighting? A fantasy. Someone already mentioned the Folsom Rush, just about everything else is largely useless sparring or dueling. My brother and I have pretty much figured out what works and what doesn't with knives using little more than countless bouts with red and blue Magic Markers and training knives. Footwork (aside from basic balance maintenance), intricate traps, anatomical striking, and other fanciful notions are as likely as winning the lottery. The essence of the knife is that it is something of a damage amplifier for one's already possessed strength, speed, cunning, and willingness to do what needs to be done. A firearm requires fine and gross motor skills and coordination to employ successfully whereas anyone with the will to do so can instinctually figure out how to best kill with a knife. Most people have never done it, even in realistic practice trying to kill one another with markers, what kind of knowledge deficit could you possibly possess on the street? Chances are great that the assailant has never done anything either, let alone FMA.

There is a reason that real knife fights look nothing like martial arts, just as there was a reason that WWI trench knives had the skull poppers and the knuckle guards on them. A true knife fight is going to be a short contest of unbelievable savagery, not an extended dance featuring weapons.
 
In 1973, I was walking over to a girlfriends house it was dark and I heard the sound of toe nails scraping on the ground and then growling. A dog was coming and coming hard. The dog was about 35#, I pulled out a knife I had bought at a pawn shop, opened it and the next thing I know the dog is within a few feet of me and trying to bite me. I did like a sword fight with the dogs mouth. His teeth and my blade( I was scared s***less). I hept hollering, get out of here dog, get out of here. A guy I went to high school with started thrownig dirt clods at the do, and the dog turned and ran away.

I dumped the knife for a 20" club I made from a branch of china berry tree.
 
Boats, great post!

In my experience, knives are more intuitive, easier to use, and more dangerous than firearms, but … I suspect that even a little firearms training will almost always give the shooter an edge over even the most skilled knife fighter—outside of contact range, at least.

~G. Fink
 
Though hardly an expert on fending off animals with knives, since I often jog with only a knife and some OC, I have had to at least think this through.

On an animal, OC is first, but sometimes I am not carrying it, such as if I was "going to my girlfriend's house,"--don't tell my wife:evil:--, then the strategy with an aggressive dog has to be to get my jacket or shirt wrapped around my off forearm, if time permits, and if the dog attacks, offer up my "shield" as a target. This will bring the most dangerous part of the dog out of my way in order to stab it repeatedly in the throat and chest.

Hopefully, I will never have to try this plan.:D
 
"The proper role of a knife in personal protection?"

Stabbing and slashing, of course.
 
Pendragon opines:So - you people who are into these fancy combat knives - what is your training level and what do you see your knife being used for in a self defense scenario (because I find stuff to cut open all the time, but I dont need a $250 titanium coated lockback to open boxes).

To me, this is just another dumb "I dont understand it so it must be bad" type of kneejerk reaction.
 
I always carry two knives. One is for utility and it gets frequent use. The other is for SD and it is always razor sharp and is only used for knife practice drills.

I practice drawing, opening, very rapid slashing and quick stabbing and feinting movements. My knife however, is a last resort weapon after my running shoes and my pistol.
 
Pendragon opines:So - you people who are into these fancy combat knives - what is your training level and what do you see your knife being used for in a self defense scenario (because I find stuff to cut open all the time, but I dont need a $250 titanium coated lockback to open boxes).

To me, this is just another dumb "I dont understand it so it must be bad" type of kneejerk reaction.
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Yeah. Since most gunfights happen within 3 yds and only require 3 shots, we should only be able to buy 3 shot revolvers with no sights.
 
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