Knife vs. Gun at Contact Distance

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I tend to carry my folding knives as tools not weapons, but I certainly wouldnt hesitate to use one as a weapon to save myself. I usually have a fodler in my front strong side pocket, and one in the rear weak side pocket. I envision a knife as more of a get off me now type of weapon, to buy time to draw my primary or secondary handgun. Ive never had knife training outside of the basic training bayonet assault course (I hardly think it counts either), but have had training in firearms, which makes me consider the guns the first choice. On the other hand, if someone catchs me by surprise, Ill be using everything from the cup of coffee in my hands, to a 2x4 on the ground, to a folder or fixed blade on me if its neccessary to buy myself time, or defeat a adversity
 
Cold Steel

Interesting thread and excellent commentaries by all. Kudos !

Having had some experience with blade men, I may be able to inject something here for all to consider.

Based on what I've seen and experienced...(Yes. I've been cut) an experienced knife fighter is not going to rush you from 7 yards. If he's
serious about his impending attack, he's going to attempt to inch closer
while he watches for an opening. All it will take is for your attention to
be diverted for a split second, and you're cut...even if you have your hand on your gun...maybe even if you have it IN your hand. If he's very good
with his blade, he's going to cut you more than once before you can fire.
If he's very, very good...and knows human anatomy pretty well, you'll
have somewhere between 15 and 30 seconds before you lose consciousness from the blood pressure drop....depending on where you're cut.

An experienced knife man is not going to reveal his intent, nor will he
give any indication that he even has a knife. Your first realization of that fact will likely be when you feel it cut you....and if you are in a hand-to-hand
struggle with him..and his blade is sharp, you may not even realize that
you HAVE been cut until your vision starts to blur.

If you find yourself in a verbal confrontation, and you notice that he or
she seems to be inching closer, there is your first red flag. Maintain the distance between you, and be ready to react...even if your antagonist seems to be de-escalating the confrontation. That's usually a ploy to
make you relax and increase your reaction time.

Be aware of anybody else who makes a furtive move. It may be a
cohort who is trying to divert your attention from the real threat. If you can't extract yourself from the scene, get your back to a wall if possible.

Drawing your gun too soon is better than drawing it too late.

Good thread. Luck!

Tuner
 
"Was it Mushashi that said that a warrior should favor no particular weapon"

Steve is right on with that quote....

But two often I fear that we all see the firearm as a Talisman that will protect us from all comers. We get tunnel vision and miss the opportunity to end the fight some other way....or even simply to run away.

Inside 5 feet deploying a handgun can be problematic to say the least.

There is a LOT that the other guy can do to deflect your weapon or tie it up so it WILL NOT FUNCTION.

For this reason, most contact-distance handgun techniques include some effort by you to maintain or increase separation.

(For this thread I will ignore the very real advantage that empty hand techniques can have at this range...kicking the guy in the nether regions could be the best one-shot-stop of all times)

:evil:


A knife has a serious advantage in that grabbing it HURTS...and it can actually be more effective to CLOSE with an edged weapon.

While a struggle for control of a handgun can go on for several minutes....most people will not hold onto the cutting edge of your knife for long (I know...I saw Rob Roy too...it was a MOVIE people)

Deep stab wounds can be easily as debilitating as gunshot wounds.

The right blow with a knife can end the conflict just as fast as a head shot with a handgun.

As stated before...peripheral hits can still remove the BG's ability to attack

Your best weapon is still your brain....focusing on your handgun means not using your best weapon.
 
The fact is that a knife kills in minutes and a gun kills in seconds.
Click to expand...

Depends on the size of your knife and the placement of youir shot(s). A bowie knife can pop your head clean off but only a CNS shot is has a high probability of preventing injury to yourself in time from a close attack.
 
Inside of five feet accessing any tool is going to be a cute trick under the stress of an imminent assault. I think you'd be better served by utilizing your unarmed skills prior to attempting any tool access.
 
If you are talking CCW, a gun is going to be slow to draw. You either have to clear covering garment or draw from pocket (with cross draw or pocket draw you can "cheat" by having hand on gun before you KNOW you need it, if you have any warnings).

With a Spyderco or such they are open carried so you don't have to clear garment, this speeds up the draw and also lets you use the non weapon hand defend.

I carry two Spydercos, one set to draw with right hand and one for left hand. I often palm one of them, hold like a fist load, when something alerts me but I can't justify showing a weapon.
 
My thought processes at 5 feet and the BG makes a move toward a knife or gun [ furtive gesture ] will tend to go to hand to hand skills and not rely on getting either my defensive knife or handgun into the scenario initially.

At near contact distance [ I think 5 feet was the sceanrio originally ] I will not be able to deploy either quick enough to not take damage before I can get them into play, and I can draw a blade as quick as the best of them after about 12 years of training with the blades [ clipped folders for most part during that time ].

The mistake many make is to see their defensive weapons as crutches which will solve problems where SD is necessary up close and personal. Many a person has died attempting to access their own weapons while being attacked, too many cops are prone to this mindset, though in the last decade their mindset seems to be changing gradually toward some unarmed skills in this area.

If the perp already has a knife in his hand at 5 feet and attacks, better to have the ability to deflect the intial attack through unamred skills, creating the time and distance necessary to possibly then access a weapon of my own in response, than to attempt to go to guns or knife and lose the concentration on his own weapon bearing hand for even a split second [ because thats all it will take to take damage from his knife ].

Time and distance are needed to access your own weapons effectively in SD situation. If you don't have these in your favor, better to be able to create them first and then possibly run or access your own and stand and fight if escape is not an option due to whatever particular circumstances are introduced in that particular situation.

The Tueler drill only emphasizes the fact you can be reached from a minimum distance of 21 feet quite regularly before you can be "good to go" with your own weapon. A speedster gangbanger against an out of shape older person will be able to reach them from beyond that, so the drill is not etched in stone as to distance. The drill also establishes in most jurisdictions the distance an officer may use deadly force when presented with a threat of a knife. Thats a good thing as many officers fell victim to their own mindset that "the idiot brought a knife to a gun fight" and believed that their gun would trump the knifer on the street years ago [ now most of them are being exposed to Tuellers drill and can recognize they need more than the crutch of that sidearm when the distances are short ].

Time and distance in an altercation against a knife are key. If you do not have both of those luxuries, better learn to create them un armed or suffer the consequences.

Brownie
 
"When two men are fighting with knives...everybody will get cut."

Excellent point....

I actually don't see a lot of potential for knife-on-knife encounters

At least I hope not

Since ...short of throwing....a knife is a contact weapon, I would hope that the Nike Defense would come into play in many/most cases

But testosterone is a funny thing.....
 
Paul Gomez wrote, "Inside of five feet accessing any tool is going to be a cute trick under the stress of an imminent assault. I think you'd be better served by utilizing your unarmed skills prior to attempting any tool access."
...and brownie wrote, "My thought processes at 5 feet and the BG makes a move toward a knife or gun [ furtive gesture ] will tend to go to hand to hand skills and not rely on getting either my defensive knife or handgun into the scenario initially."

That would be my assessment of the situation as well. If I recall I believe the poster originally said contact to 5 ft distance. You're already behind the curve. If the offender closes at this distance you'll be immediately into blocking or parrying strikes. I think that I would attempt to guard my vital areas, i.e., head/neck, by angling away and sacrificing my offhand arm. Yes, I will be cut. I would then attempt (if armed with a handgun) to draw and fire repeated torso shots from a close-in retention/pectoral position while attempting to hold or block repeat strikes from the offender. If at the stated distance someone attempts to draw a concealed weapon it would probably be faster to attempt a disarm than attempt to outdraw him. Especially if you were reacting to his draw. Ayoob has written and tested many of these theories in articles.

EricO
 
I am in agreement with Paul and ericO about making the most of one's time and defend using unarmed hand-to-hand skills as a reaction. Drawing a gun or a knife takes away time and puts one's hands and shoulders and balance at a disadvantage. At 15-20 feet, a rushing assailant covers ground amazingly fast, and usually the assailant has the advantage of surprise against a defender. I have watched surveillance videos of rushing attacks of unarmed domestic assaults, and it is amazing how fast and brutal the fists and feet serve in taking down a defender. At best, the defender is able to block or cover vitals with elbows and knees, but the seconds just melt away from start to finish. What worries me more is during the assault, the assailant can access the gun, and turn it on the defender faster than retention "training" will allow. Someone once said to draw as soon as you see a grim determined person coming at 20 yds. That will stop the fight early. If you have a knife, better draw it by 15 yds., because the fight is already there. Under 15 yds., grab the nearest impact or edged weapon you can find to start swinging and retreat to a position which favors you an escape route. Under 10 yds., do not turn your back and run, because once the assailant pounces upon you, you are way off balance and become finished prey. I have wavered over the years about safeties on a gun, and have lately been a firm believer in a safety on a defensive firearm, in the event it does get away from me, I know I have that millisecond to kick it away. I even believe in carrying without a round in the chamber for this same reason. That is a personal choice, not a tactical ideal.
 
No ccw

I am not allowed to carry out of uniform. So a knife is it for me. Cold steel seems to fit the bill. I have the Full size vaquaro. S? when that is to big. A MOD trident. But it aint like carrying a gun. Aint right. Stupid PRK
 
I've put alot of thought into this, and would go for knife for almost anything inside a few yards. Not 7 yards, probably, but 1 - 2 yards for sure.

I honestly believe that a knife has better stopping power. It makes you bleed more, can creat larger wounds, and in certain techniques can be used to completely sever functionality of a particular body function (think blade-in pull-cut down the fore-arm.... you cut certian tendons or muscles, and attacker's trigger hand is disfunctional).

That being said, I would hate hate hate to find myself that close, even though i've carried a knife far longer than i've carried a firearm. (every day for past 13 years, versus just a few months - and i'm not even allowed to carry in this state yet)

And, the final caveat: in the end, all you can do is to trust your instincts at the time. in the meantime, i'm going to work to keep my instincts sharp and well-informed.
 
Interesting thread...

No one thing is perfect or foolproof, hence the need to train to deal with a variety of threats, and train to employ a variety of weapons.


Some additional points to consider:

Most people don't think of a gun as a club, but at contact range, a gun makes a great striking weapon, especially if you're carrying a nice heavy steel gun such as a 1911. Most knives will be nice and light, whereas a steel 1911 is probably 2 1/2 lbs of metal. It's not a sledgehammer, but a pistol strike to the skull or various joints can be very effective.

And don't forget other impact weapons. Frankly I would rather have an ASP baton than a knife, especially for defense. A knife effectively requires opponents to physically touch, whereas something like a 26" or 31" ASP can give you almost 2 ft of reach. And, a strike with the tip of a steel baton can be almost instantly lethal with a blow to the temple/skull.

Knives are great if someone decides to grab or grapple. A grappler is trying to get inside your defense, which is right where the contact range of the knife becomes most effective. Unless you're dealing with an expert grappler, you can usually get a knife into action, and then the knife will usually give you the advantage.
 
When I was trained as an officer in the Swiss Army, my handgun intructor taught me that under 5 meters (about 5.5 yards) it isn't worth even thinking drawing your gun or your knive. If you can't move back at least another 5 meters to gain time and distance your best bet, even if you aren't trained in close combat, is to confront your adversary bare handed... and hope for the best!
 
Though the discussion has drifted somewhat from my original intent, it has been beneficial.

Understanding that at the original distance specified, most people are going to have to initially employ some sort of unarmed skills. While this may end the fight, based on the comments thus far, it appears many would use those skills with the intent of creating some distance to get a weapon into action. Per my original question, has anyone established a preference for their knife over their gun at this distance?
 
"has anyone established a preference for their knife over their gun at this distance?"

Depends on the knives I'm carrying and the gun I have with me, the positioning on my body and how fast each can be accessed.

If I'm carrying the Perrin bowie in an IWB crossdraw and a gun IWB on the right hip, I'll go for the knife.

Change that knife to a folder in the rfp and the same gun setup, I'll go for the gun.

Depends on the armament and their positioning when it happens for me.

Brownie
 
Paul and Brownie have said it well. Time and distance are the defender's allies in any situation. They allow you to react with the optimal force. At contact range you must create distance to have the chance to employ a weapon and can not become fixated on the weapon. H2H skills are needed to do this and dependence on any tool probably will get you killed. You should train to use everything you have on you to fight your way to the means to apply the optimum force, whether that is a rifle, handgun, or club. Please remember that everything around you may serve as an expedient weapon that could be employed in creating that distance and that you should incorporate their use in your training.

I have shown LEOs that the distance needed to close, prevent their weapon from being drawn, and make sufficient "cuts" to disable them is shockingly great and the time needed is all to brief. Even an obstical like a store counter or car only counts as something to go around to get to them and may not be any more protection than adding a few more steps to the path.

At the 5 and under range I'd default to empty hand/expedient club, then fixed blade knife, then handgun/folder. I have not found the handgun to be as reliably deployable in those confines. Like others the situation and relative positions modify the sequence.
 
Sorry, did not get the rest of my message completed before I posted it (twice, what a schmuck!).

I don't feel good about my ability to choose between a handgun or a knife when someone assaults me. My handgun is my primary, so I will probably default to it as a conditioned response, assuming I perform as well as I hope. If my knife is my primary, I would go to it, hopefully without losing a lot of time looking for my handgun. This is why it is important to be situationally aware. The extra few seconds I might have to palm my knife and make some decisions could be vitally important.

Furthermore, I think it is important to wield a handgun at close range much like I would a knife, putting a lot of emphasis on moving and blocking and trapping with the live hand. Paul hit the nail on the head: you have got to survive the first few seconds, which means empty hand skills are required.
 
Steve Moses Said: "Obviously, my brain doesn't work as fast as some of you guys."


It's the age-old problem....

I'm running a 286 between my ears and all over the internet I keep finding guys running Pentium 5000s.:D

One day, I'll get that brainpan upgrade and it'll all be easy.:p
 
I understand the dynamics of the Tueller drill, but am I correct that in conducting the drill the practitioner is expected to stand and draw? In all the training I've had, I've been told to move to both increase the distance and provide a harder to hit target. If you start moving laterally, the attacker is most likely going to have to slow to maneuver, thus buying you more time. If you started backpedalling, you're also going to increase the distance and buy time. I realize that this dynamic changes depending upon whether you're alone or with others, but there are a number of additional scenarios that can be deployed to maximize the distance between me and an aggressor. I personally, upon finding myself in a situation where I'm not 100% sure, automatically put my hand in my pocket and onto the grips of a 340 PD loaded with 357 magnums. That way the drawstroke is the only movement of my hand and I don't have to worry about moving clothing out of the way, or reaching into my pocket to find the gun.
 
The Tueller drill [ 21 feet ] emphasizes the minimum distance one can expect to be hit from before being able to draw and fire a handgun. Thats the minimum distance. At 5 feet, or even 10 feet, your chances of moving out of the way of the attack is nill at best. Move laterally, they are already targeting you and ready for that when they charge you.

Some people are of the impression that you should be able to escape to a distance long enough to buy the time needed to draw while accessing the firearm under stress. At 21 feet I can see where some who are agile, young, alert, trained in their startle response draw stroke will think they can beat the man at 21 feet pretty much all the time.

At 21 feet a man can be on you in 1.5 seconds from some form of ouside stimulus. Thats about the same time in studies done by the US Military and their pilots response times. They can draw and shoot statically on him in that time on the line at the range all day. They still lose, he is on them and has done damage, possibly resulting in your death. He is moving, you stand and draw, he's weaving or pulls up short and stops. Will a person hit the mover rushing them with the adrenaline pumping big time causing the autonomic fight or flight response to shut down audio, blurr the vision if he continues?

If the plan is to backpedal fast enough to create enough time and distance, first the person needs the unobstructed space to do so [ may not be available all the time ], they have to not stumble in their haste, and they are certainly would not be prone to taking their eyes off the rushing perp. From 21 feet, the backpedalers usually lose and get cut several times before they die.

Now take 3 feet, 5 feet more realitically, say 8 feet tops. A man can be another in literally a heartbeat or less and already have taken damage. If they throw their hands up to block the knife instinctively initially, they lose, he is cutting you until you do something else.

There will no time to draw the knife, the gun or do anything except have some training in unarmed combatives, defensive knife, etc. to where they feel comfortable with their unarmed skills during a startle response of the worst kind.

Most people are capable of blocking something thrown at them and can intercept incoming instinctively. Most people are not capable of defending themselves from a knife from that distance unfortunately. People skilled in unarmed defensive tactics will also take damage likely as well. The difference may just be the trained person minimizes the damage and increases his chances of survival ultimately.

They may be able to create time and distance, they know how, it's only a matter of whether the circumstances are such that they can be used in some way.

Awareness then becomes more of a key to survival than tactics/training. It can give you the time, maybe not the distance, but the time to get a weapon ready covertly if possible.

21 feet seems a long way away, it is and it isn't. It depends on when you become aware of a problem and start to react by filling the hands with a weapon that allows the time to react and win.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
to be honest about the reference about a knife having killing power and not stopping power, i say this: a knife can deliver two disabling blows and two lethal blows in less that a second and a half. Unlike a gun a knife can physically ensure that lack of use of a limb with a high degree of reliability, as well as insure death. Guns can too, but aim becomes the problem here. A knife is a very capable weapon and i will leave it at that. Too many think a knife is a piss ant weapon, but it is one of the most lethal things on the market.
 
I'm no expert, but I have trained in a system involving the use of knives at contact distance, against firearms. I held the gun and I held the knife. It was real training, the knife was actually metal (with a false, chalked edge), the gun was as realistic as they come. The blows were full force and it was about as real as you could get without ending up in the emergency room.

Almost every time I had the knife, I landed at least one killing blow before I even had the gun on me. Oftentimes, even if the gun landed on me before I struck them, it was simple enough to evade and strike. Even when the gun was drawn previously, the one with the knife almost always "won". Remember that both participants were resisting and trying to hurt one another, much like you'd get in a real fight. Wrists were grabbed, I got hit in the face a few times, but I still managed to land deadly blows with the knife. Given a choice of self-defense, I want a gun. At very close ranges, I want a knife.

In fact, only a few students really managed to defend, and most of them didn't even draw the gun and just instinctively disarmed me. It's something that takes an insane amount of practice, especially considering that I was doing various strikes, not just one or two. That's not to say don't bother drawing your gun, that may be the best option.

As I said, I'm not an expert, but this is my experience with knives at close ranges. Remember, your average knife is about a half inch from primary grind to spine. That's a .50 cal wound channel. Knives are exceptionally deadly at close range. Fear them.
 
This is a great visual I send to friends when they tell me knives arent dangerous...

knife.jpg
 
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